Also, so many people study one thing then work in a different area which is also not an ideal use of public funds.

If you think university is just a case of learning facts then you are missing the point. If a good degree will teach you a way of thinking that can be transferred into other areas.

For instance engineering degrees can create good problem solvers. Good problem solvers are useful in areas other than engineering !!!!

As for the rest, shit happens in life, life is not fair. Sometimes things mean we cant take advantage of opportunities, sometimes they are our own fault other times they are out of our control. We just have to get back up and try again and look for the next opportunity.

Bazzer

Good point Bazzer I stand corrected.

Your point about a degree is not just a subject depends on the student of life.

I didn’t just learn about medicine I became a critical analytical thinker, that I use in everyday in life. I can relate to your point too.

I am sure I saw a study in USA regarding the free university education that they gave to veterans after WW2. Apparently the graduates generated 2.5x the cost of the degrees in extra tax receipts to the economy. Conclusion was: Free universal university education paid from general taxation generates a highly skilled workforce that returns far more in tax to the economy than it costs.

However Blairs idea that EVERYONE should get a degree is rubbish IMO and led to pointless Media Studies degrees that you could get accepted onto with 2 E’s at A level. Nothing wrong with non traditional degrees but jeez…, at least make people get A’s and B’s at A level…

same things applies to state education too, richer kids do better

I went to a crap state school, parents working class loved me lots but never really encouraged me. I have a 1st in Engineering. It can be done, but you have to do it for your self.

they obviously didnt teach you anything worthwhile in that degree about probability, statistics or reasoning though.

For instance engineering degrees can create good problem solvers. Good problem solvers are useful in areas other than engineering !!!!

Yeah but the skills learnt would be even better if used for engineering!!!!!!!!!!!

they obviously didnt teach you anything worthwhile in that degree about probability, statistics or reasoning though

And your point is ?

Yeah but the skills learnt would be even better if used for engineering!!!!!!!!!!!

Better for who ?

I didn’t just learn about medicine I became a critical analytical thinker, that I use in everyday in life. I can relate to your point too.

Exactly, its about skills rather than facts, it also can give people a huge amount of confidence and belief in themselves. So to a certain extent it does not matter what they study as long as it challenges them to a high level.

I went to a crap state school, parents working class loved me lots but never really encouraged me. I have a 1st in Engineering. It can be done, but you have to do it for your self.

I thought my point was fairly simple, your reasonning is that of simpleton.

Better for who ?

Do you have a degree? Was it a good investment for the country?

Do you have a degree? Was it a good investment for the country?

Yes and Yes 🙂

I thought my point was fairly simple, your reasonning is that of simpleton.

But I have not had to resort to insulting you 🙂

If you mean that statistically speaking that people from less wealthy backgrounds tend not to do as well in education then of course I am aware of that. But maybe that’s because people like you keep telling them how hard done by they are and they can’t possible do well unless someone helps them !!!

Bazzer

But maybe that’s because people like you keep telling them how hard done by they are and they can’t possible do well unless someone helps them !!!

As opposed to simpletons who belive they are just not trying hard enough. Thats a hell of a lot of people who arent as great as you are with your degree.

As opposed to simpletons who belive they are just not trying hard enough. Thats a hell of a lot of people who arent as great as you are with your degree.

No I think people like you talk them down rather than setting an example and telling them they can do it if they work hard enough.

Would you like some vinegar for that chip on your shoulder 🙂

No I think people like you talk them down rather than setting an example and telling them they can do it, if they work hard enough.

Would you like some vinegar for that chip on your shoulder

care to explain firstly what you know about what I say kids in difficult situations and secondly what the chips on my shoulder are about?

care to explain firstly what you know about what I say kids in difficult situations and secondly what the chips on my shoulder are about?

Sorry for being a simpleton but that does not look like English to me, if you could simplify it I will try to answer 🙂

I think people like you talk them down rather than setting an example and

How would you have the first clue what I say to kids?

Would you like some vinegar for that chip on your shoulder

What do you think the chips on my shoulder are about?

Simple enough for you?

No I think people like you talk them down rather than setting an example and telling them they can do it if they work hard enough

Telling a “simpleton” to try harder is like telling a slow runner to run faster by just trying. Perhaps we could all be olympic sprinters if we just tried as natural/latent [lets call it genetics] is of no consequence only personal effort.

How would you have the first clue what I say to kids?

Well rather than me infer from you previous posts why don’t you tell me ?

What do you think the chips on my shoulder are about?

When you started insulting me it gave me the impression that you felt hard done by and perhaps resented people who said it was possible to do well even if you were not born with a silver spoon in your mouth

Telling a “simpleton” to try harder is like telling a slow runner to run faster by just trying. Perhaps we could all be olympic sprinters if we just tried as natural/latent [lets call it genetics] is of no consequence only personal effort.

Even if you are not born a good runner chances are if you train hard enough you can become a good one, maybe not the best but none the less better than people who don’t run at all. Most things in life are a lot like that 🙂

EVERYONE in this country has access to decent education until they are 18. A quality of education that some people in other countries would quite literally give their right arm for. Yes you can buy a better education but EVERYONE can have a good one. Its what you do with it that counts.

Yes there are other factors involved and there are a small number of people who through no fault of there own can’t take advantage of this. Most however could, if we stopped the culture of asking what others can do to help us and instead created one where we asked what can I do to help myself.

yes bazzer there is no genetic component to intelligence at all- please goggle this FFS- it is just down to personal effort. Lets remove all teachers and replace them with motivational speakers … The average intelligence will be soaring then.

EVERYONE can have a good one. Its what you do with it that counts

No some peopele are not very bright. No matter what they do or how much we encourage them they will struggle to read and write, they will be in the lower sets, and complicated issues will be beyond their grasp- imagine encouraging a dog to understand Einstein- it wont make much difference how hard the dog tries it will still not get it [ I am not comparing stupid people to dogs here just showing that all animals, us included, have a potential that cannot be exceeded by perosnal effort or education]
Differences in educational attainment are not explainable solely by personal effort nor just genetics.
In your world if we all tried hard we would all be the brightest, the fastest etc – clearly we have natural differences between humans that environmental factors cannot equalise – was that not your starting point on this thread – sometime life is fair sometimes it is not etc.

if you train hard enough you can become a good one, maybe not the best but none the less better than people who don’t run at all

True but that was not the point you made – clearly everyone will improve with effort but not everyone can succeed just by trying- if you doubt me try flying under your own power without mechanical aid 😉
If i trained every day of my life and Usain Bolt had never trained he would still have been faster than me as he was born fast and I was born slow personal effort or lack of on his part will not alter this.

How would you have the first clue what I say to kids?

Well rather than me infer from you previous posts why don’t you tell me ?

your the one that tells me I talk down to kids and prevent them from achieving after I had merely highlight a few facts regarding educational attainment and social background. You on the otherhand seems to just base your world views on a sample size of one.

What do you think the chips on my shoulder are about?

When you started insulting me it gave me the impression that you felt hard done by and perhaps resented people who said it was possible to do well even if you were not born with a silver spoon in your mouth

quite wrong actually. I was brought up on a council estate in a single parent family and have a degree, Masters and PhD. However I am also able to work out that I am unusual and have been lucky if you consider the statistics regarding educational attainment and social class.

Junkyard I think you are getting the wrong end of my argument.

I have not said that EVERYONE can do well regardless of there innate ability. I have said that they can be the best they can through effort.

My original argument which seems to have been lost is, even people who come from poorer backgrounds can make the most of there natural ability if they try hard. I was arguing people can do well regardless of there economic background.

Of course there are some people who are truly dealt a real crap hand in life and that is a shame. There are also a lot of people who have a medium hand and don’t make the best out it. That was my original point, though that seemed to be lost in the forum name calling.

In reality my position is :-

I think education should be free to all regardless of your economic background. In a perfect world I would like to see higher education free for all and people should not have to be put in debt to access it. I would also like to see other alternative opportunities for people who are not suited to academia but none the less have valuable skills.

But I still stand by the fact a way (not the only one) to maximise your potential is to work hard.

I think it was Nick Faldo (could be wrong) who said “The more I practice the luckier I get”

Bazzer

quite wrong actually. I was brought up on a council estate in a single parent family and have a degree, Masters and PhD. However I am also able to work out that I am unusual and have been lucky if you consider the statistics regarding educational attainment and social class.

So what made me and you different to the rest ? There must have been other bright kids in our position that didn’t end up in a similar position ?

I am happy to take this on a more pleasant level of debate if you are ?

people who come from poorer backgrounds can make the most of there natural ability if they try hard.

true but the odds are massively stacked against them due to less access to good quality education, less help from parents and less support and guidance from their peers.

true but the odds are massively stacked against them due to less access to good quality education, less help from parents and less support and guidance from their peers.

I totally agree with that, it would be easier if your parents, brother, sister or friends etc had experience to draw on.

But as I said I never had any of that and I suspect from what you have said neither did you. So again what separated us from people who took a different path in life ?

mostly luck? Could I have achived even more than I did as an academic?

What’s interesting is that the students may not just end up paying for their education, but also funding the government.
It costs roughly £7000 a year to educate a student at the moment with the government funding about £4000 and the rest being made of the existing fee.
If the government removes the £4000 funding then that means a 7000 fee to the student.

Herein is a subtle point, fees over £6000 will be charged with levy of 40%, paid to the Treasury …. So to obtain a level revenue stream universities have to charge almost £8000 and the Treasury walks away with a tax (sorry contribution) of £800 per student per year … neat from the Treasury’s point of view… to gain equilibrium in funding, the University charges £8000, receives around £7000 whilst the Treasury gets £800 bonus per student .

luck I agree and the fact we were born bright which is just more luck. Much dumber rich kids than us have done much better with less effort.
Those on the margins and born poor probably suffer more with more support and/or a private education they really could have been someone. We are exceptions not exemplars

I was arguing people can do well regardless of there economic background.

I know but you cannot deny that that a poor background penalises them and a wealthy one rewards you. better written as

I was arguing that some people can do well despite their poor economic background.

Hmm luck, I will concede part luck.

I see it more as spotting an opportunity and making the most of it, is that luck ?

Paraphrasing my earlier quote, the harder I work the luckier I seem to get 🙂

You don’t get a PhD in say Molecular Biology for instance, by making some stuff up and being lucky it was right do you ? I realise I am being a bit trite and don’t want our debate to degenerate again so do forgive me.

Bazzer