We already have a progressive tax system where by people who earn more pay a higher proportion of tax. To add more on top of this seems very “unfair”

So, its fair for someone who has not had the life chances to got to university, to pay for someone who has?

Quick estimate of higher rate tax payers,according to this study there were 3.7 million in 2007/08 out of a total of income tax (i.e. both self employed and employed)payers of 32.5 million see here so that is 11.4% – so TJ’s figures are as usual BS.

Even at 10 % it is by no stretch of the imagination “middle earners”

Well the news article I saw said that 6 million people would be affected. Only half the population work, so the percentage has to be something like 20% of working people.

Or pehaps there was political meddling going on there and the BBC just wanted to make things sound a lot worse than they really are.

The thing about statistics is that you can use them to easily distort the true picture.

So, its fair for someone who has not had the life chances to got to university, to pay for someone who has?

Given that the graduate will pay back far more than they take out, yes.

Given that the graduate will pay back far more than they take out, yes.

what if they dont?

What if they piss three years up the wall getting stoned before coming out with a 2.2 in media skills, before getting a job in a call centre?

36 million people of a working age so that’s at least 10%

yes but not everyone of working age actually works or pays PAYE. Some are students, unemployed, early retirement , rich etc. You are giving 10% of the above not 10% of PAYE hence the different numbers.

5lab – Member
well half a million part time people earning less than 40k doesn’t have as much impact on the figures as the ~30m who are earning various figures who are in full time employment?

Even at 10%, its not middle earners, no. However, as far as household incomes go (taking in both earners), it’s probably around the middle ground.

Except that on average households have roughly 1 earner, so average household income isn’t much different to average wage. Certainly not twice as much.

yes but not everyone of working age actually works or pays PAYE.

Indeed which is why I say at least.

bazzer – Member
I think what you pay back should be related to how well you perform at University.

Get a
1st 80% discount on fees.
2:1 60%
2:2 40%
3rd 20%

Fail 0%

Might make people think about if university is right for them in the first place and when they are there an incentive to make the most of it.

Bazzer

Tell that to student who is in hospital and tell her the exam board have not accepted her operation or 3 week stay in hospital for cancer and therefore capped to a 3rd or the student who suffers a bereavement from the loss of their parents. But don’t worry we’ll give you more to pay back…

Just because you’re not affected by government plans or what was great for you makes you inconsiderate to others.

I don’t have kids but I would still consider parents who claim child benefit. Or should I just say no child benefit to anyone and btw I don’t have kids.

Selfishness on this forum is amazing and thank god I didn’t vote for you…I did? ah crap.

I await when you all moan and nobody listens as it doesn’t affect others.

tiger-roach – fair point I had not read whole thread actuually and missed links above anyway 😳

Tell that to student who is in hospital and tell her the exam board have not accepted her operation or 3 week stay in hospital for cancer and therefore capped to a 3rd or the student who suffers a bereavement from the loss of their parents. But don’t worry we’ll give you more to pay back…

Just because you’re not affected by government plans or what was great for you makes you inconsiderate to others.

I don’t have kids but I would still consider parents who claim child benefit. Or should I just say no child benefit to anyone and btw I don’t have kids.

Selfishness on this forum is amazing and thank god I didn’t vote for you…I did? ah crap.

I await when you all moan and nobody listens as it doesn’t affect others.

If I am honest I would like to see higher education funded totally including a maintenance grant. But only for people who have proved its is worth funding them.

I would like to see a return of worthwhile apprenticeships, for people who are obviously bright but not suited to the academic nature of university.

As for the rest, shit happens in life, life is not fair. Sometimes things mean we cant take advantage of opportunities, sometimes they are our own fault other times they are out of our control. We just have to get back up and try again and look for the next opportunity.

Bazzer

yes the 11+ was successful iirc bazzer.

Instead of upping fees they should just cap places…make it so only the brightest people can get in to uni.

A degree should be something earned by academic excellence, not by the amount of money your parents have.

This would reduce the amount they need to give to unis, and make a degree a bit more worthwhile.

So, its fair for someone who has not had the life chances to got to university, to pay for someone who has?

yes beacuse we all benefit from a well educated society. Of course its not fair to pay for it if you cannot afford it.

make it so only the brightest people can get in to uni

how do we choose the “brightest”?

I agree I used to teach remedial maths at school.We had people on science degrees who need hep to actually work out an average…shocking.
Only problem is that those who are privately educated would be equiproportionally the brightest due to the advantage of their parents’ wealth/their education. We need some method of equalising opportunity and rewarding the brightest. most non vocational degrees are relatively useless these days as very common.
the same is true of college courses.How many child care level 2 workers each year, mechanics, hairdressers when the jobs are in sales , call centres and shop work.
It is odd we pay people to go to college to any old sh1t and then make them pay to do some of the stuff we really need , Doctors, engineers, researchers etc,

how do we choose the “brightest”?

Simple those with best academic results. University’s offer academic courses so surely that makes sense ?

yes the 11+ was successful iirc bazzer

Not sure what you mean by this ?

Only problem is that those who are privately educated would be equiproportionally the brightest due to the advantage of their parents’ wealth/their education

same things applies to state education too, richer kids do better

same things applies to state education too, richer kids do better

I went to a crap state school, parents working class loved me lots but never really encouraged me. I have a 1st in Engineering. It can be done, but you have to do it for your self.

Problem is lots of people think its everyone else’s fault they have not done well. “Its my parents fault” , “Its the governments fault” If your not that bright work harder, if you fail try again.

Bazzer

yes but the education given is the critical factor. Eton is clearly a better education than your average bog standard state school.
I agree all other things being equal richer peoples’ children will still flourish. However with private education it is not equal in terms of the education received hence they disproportionately propser/ have an unfair advantage.

bazzer of course it can be done- by very few. YOu cannot really be suggesting that everyone who fails it is their fault and all the children of millionaires worked hard [ dumb royals at oxbridge is another classic]for their success. they have many advantages which makes achieving success so much easier.
I grew up in a council house and got a first no one else on my estate got a degree. yes we worked hard but we also had natural ability. Had we gone to eton we may be PM now though 😯

But there is always going to some people with more advantage than others and some will do better than others. As I said earlier life is not fair. In fact it might be the obssesion with fairness that has lead us to have spent more than we have earnt as a country.

Life kicks some people in the bolocks and sometimes they are the good guys and sometimes they are the bad.

Bazzer

I left school at 16, and then went to college before starting work. Other friends stayed on in six-form and then either work, college or university.

We didn’t pay for any of these (including sub 16 education), and at college and university got grants. In fact I’m old enough to have claimed the dole in the summer holidays.

So lets move forward 30 years.

What happened (and when) that means that people should suddenly pay back these ‘education’ costs – what next, paying back any benefits you get, once back in work?

Or is it suddenly not now a benefit for the country to have educated people?

Life kicks some people in the bolocks and sometimes they are the good guys and sometimes they are the bad.

It kicks poor people more often and harder than the wealthy. Some people think it is better to try and minimise this and reward the good rather than the privileged.

It kicks poor people more often and harder than the wealthy. Some people think it is better to try and minimise this and reward the good rather than the privileged.

I am going to put my neck on the line with this next statement 🙂

No one in this country is poor, the government and tax payer provides welfare that raises people way beyond what is poor in a global sense.

Bazzer

At the moment there are too many graduates with degrees that aren’t in demand with employers. This means that:

1. Tax payers’ money is being wasted on higher education for these people
2. More tax payers’ money is being wasted on benefits for unemployed graduates

Wouldn’t it be better if there were less graduates, but they had skills that were in demand with employers?

Maybe an increase in fees will act as a limiting factor on people getting degrees just to avoid starting work for three years? If employers want graduates, they will have to price the cost of their new graduates’ qualifications into their renumeration strategy.

Wouldn’t it be better if there were less graduates, but they had skills that were in demand with employers?

Its going to look like I have swapped side now, in truth I can see it from both 🙂

Would it not be a shame if we only allowed people to study stuff that employers wanted and had a fiscal value ?

Do we want to live in a world without art or litrature and blue sky science ?

Bazzer

The proposals were given the blessing of the Business Secretary Vince Cable in the Commons yesterday despite all 57 Liberal Democrat MPs signing a petition during the election to vote against fee rises. He told MPs the package was “fair and affordable” and his earlier opposition to rises “no longer feasible”. He also promised to close a loophole allowing high-earning graduates to see their debts off quickly, which would have resulted in them paying less than their poorer counterparts, who would have to spread their repayments over 30 years. He is considering charging a fee for paying off loan debts early.

A ‘loophole’? This is just how interest works, the longer you borrow the money at a flat rate the more you’ll pay back!

And the ‘fee’, thats’ just pure profit for whatever organisation is the one who benefits. Boils my blood – and it doesn’t affect me one iota!

W4nkers.

No one in this country is poor, the government and tax payer provides welfare that raises people way beyond what is poor in a global sense.

hardly a risky thing to say and of course you are correct the poor [for here] wont starve here they just wont thrive like what rich[er] folk and their offspring do.
Re the skills employers want – it is a reasonable point if they were paying for the training but they are not are they. The same is true of all vocationall courses. Look at colleges. How many people leave at 18 with NVQ in childcare, hairdressing, motor vehicle mechanic, bricklaying etc [ having never actually worked doing the job] with little to no hope of getting a job in this field. i suspect most areas produce more of these professions than the local economy employs each graduation

Again some balance is required. i see little point in having 50% of our population as graduates when 50% of jobs are not graduate level. I cannot believe people get into debt to achieve this.

I agree 100% with Bazzer on fees based on performance. This should apply to apprenteships also. I think it would also remove some of the stigma that aprentiships are for thicker people. I went to a crap school got crap GCSEs as the school didn’t encourage me to work, nor pick up my mild dyslexia. I would stray away from using a certain word as I could not spell it, or lacked confidence to be the geek who took a dictionary to English. I did a Btec after school were I thrived with the right guidance and after saving up I went to university were I worked hard to get a 1st. I totaly agree that those who didn’t work as hard or were not as gifted should not have gone to university. Employers give bonus by performance why not university too?

you got one and you are not sure 😉 yes 70%
I like the way you blame school for you shortcomings but want others to pay related to results….imagine they said the same as you about their uni or college.
PS you either pass or fail most apprenticeship -NVQ- most are not BTEC which do give grades. You also need to be empployed to do an apprenticeship the others are just vocational college courses

i see little point in having 50% of our population as graduates when 50% of jobs are not graduate level.

So higher education is all about jobs and nothing else ? Not about furthering the species and pushing the bounds of human thought ?

Its sad if that all we see education as, is a means to get a better job to earn more money !!!

Well maybe it’s about investment return – is it worth the country investing in people to study something that is unlikely to give a decent financial return? I do think we need people to study all sorts of things but maybe some courses aren’t any more worthwhile than on the job training. Also, so many people study one thing then work in a different area which is also not an ideal use of public funds.

I tried to avoid the NVQ/Btec thing as awarding bodies and names have changed since I took mine. I started out on a Btec which was renamed a GNVQ which was like an NVQ but full time.

I don’t consider dyslexia a short coming. I do blame my school for not pushing me. The difference is if your University college isn’t pushing you it’s easier to move.

No we need more media studies students working in call centres with 30 k debts, below average wage earnings and little prospect of getting a better job as their degree lacks value in the real world.

Not about furthering the species and pushing the bounds of human thought ?

Of course it is but that is usually done by the most able and brilliant minds of our time who would still get to uni anyway. I said little point not no point BTW. I am all for self development and CPD but surely it has to have some utility to the person and society at large?
I assume you would rather have a medical doctor than a speaker of Klingon for example?

The difference is if your University college isn’t pushing you it’s easier to move.

Nearest college to this town is 9 miles away and there are more schools than their are unis and colleges. In reality it is not easy to transfer between any of them IME

that is usually done by the most able and brilliant minds of our time who would still get to uni anyway

Ooh you intellectual snob 😉

I don’t consider dyslexia a short coming. I do blame my school for not pushing me.

Why didn’t you push yourself?

Jonb I did, I worked really hard at college and uni and now in my own business I work very hard, apart from when I get distracted on here ha ha. I was put in the bottom set at school for many subjects were quality teaching was not given.

yes you got me I also believe football to be played professionally by the most talented and MTB professionally to be done the most talented and Elbry 😉

He also promised to close a loophole allowing high-earning graduates to see their debts off quickly, which would have resulted in them paying less than their poorer counterparts, who would have to spread their repayments over 30 years

i’m not sure if that includes me. minimum payments aren’t actually high enough to cover the interest – so i pay an extra £50 a month – because i had a crazy idea that the debt should actually shrink!

Well maybe it’s about investment return – is it worth the country investing in people to study something that is unlikely to give a decent financial return? I do think we need people to study all sorts of things but maybe some courses aren’t any more worthwhile than on the job training. Also, so many people study one thing then work in a different area which is also not an ideal use of public funds.

Exactly right.

Big companies in the professional fields such as accountancy, engineering etc often lose money in the first couple of years on those graduates as they train them up. Small companies often can’t afford to do this and many of those graduates leave once they are chartered to join small companies. I think large firms contribute in this way.

True dat