Avoidant personality disorder.

Nothing useful to add beyond I've never heard of the condition before but recognise a lot of what you describe, so curious to follow the thread.

Never very sure of Dr Google though.

Apart from the work issue, which sounds like a one-off, is it making you unhappy, or is it just you? Where does a normal, reserved, happy in one's own company, personality end and something that requires intervention start?

I'm probably like this to some degree, I think the prospect of sitting down with a CBT provider would trigger it massively though!

I also recognise some of those boxes but I've never really been eager to see which disorders I could possibly get diagnosed with.

Beware Dr Google

and something that requires intervention start?

When its disabling ie effecting your life negatively to a significant extent

Talkings good, one hour of therapy is the beginning of the relationship with the professional, why not go back for more and build on your first session.

Dr Google is an unreliable diagnostic tool, it could be correct or one of many other diagnoses, autism for example sits with what you've described, but it could also be something else. These diagnoses and their mimics are reached after some time with a professional and sometimes more than one so it may be worth exploring with a professional as opposed to Dr Google.

Talkings good, one hour of therapy is the beginning of the relationship

Talking is good for some people. This always comes up as the way forward but it’s not always the case.

If you are interested in a bit more information this is one of the better articles that I found online

https://www.kevinwgrant.com/blog/item/the-hidden-struggle-a-deep-dive-into-avoidant-personality-disorder

If you're retired , happy to speak with no one for days . I have managed 4 days without talking to anyone else, don't want to meet anyone new ever then it's a thing you can live with. If you have a job that involves interacting with others then some sort of treatment is necessary imo.

Just been diagnosed autistic at 48yo. Realized it was an actual strong possibility about a year ago. Fallen down the autistic rabbit hole over the past year as a result. Hearing it confirmed from official source... Didn't surprise nor offer relief. It's not an easy transition. Anyway... Turns out APD and autism have lots of overlap.

https://neurodivergentinsights.com/misdiagnosis-monday/avoidant-personality-disorder-vs-autism

I've been recommended Dialectical Behaviour Therapy as it's better for autisic people than CBT.

Anyway, go to GP and get referral, or see if you can talk to  mental health practitioner first. They put me down for an ADHD assessment too. Down the "right to choose" path so waiting time has been ~6 months instead of 3~5years.

A point to consider ( and this may not even apply to you nor am I recommending it) is what difference would a formal diagnosis of any kind make to your life?

10 years or so ago I realised I had strong autistic traits.  After a bunch of discussions with folk including two friends who are special needs teachers the consensus was that I did have these traits.  However I decided that at the age I was there was no point in chasing a formal diagnosis.  The resources to do so are scare and others need them more and although these traits had caused me issues earlier in my life there seemed little point in chasing a formal diagnosis as it would make little difference to my life.

Getting diagnosis in these sorts of things is a long and wearisome process.

At what point does being a bit odd become something that needs a label?  Is it a personality trait or a disability?

Only you can decide this.  A chat with a MH professional might help provide some clarity

I wouldn't recommend taking advice from someone who sums up this stuff as 'being a bit odd'.

Don't be too quick to think there is something wrong with you.

I find probably, at least 75% of people I meet to be completely unbearable, they talk too much, too loudly, and even when they are clearly wrong or just making stuff up on the fly... they just talk louder and faster as if that all of a sudden makes them correct.

Thats not what I said sirromj.  Nothing like it.

I made no judgement on the OP at all. I made some points for the OP to consider having been thru a very similar process myself

Its a philosophical point.  At what point on the spectrum from being a bit odd to having a disabling condition does a formal diagnosis become necessary and its corollary what difference will a formal diagnosis make to your life?  Its something to consider that is all and I clearly said " only you can decide" and "and this may not even apply to you nor am I recommending it"

Op, do you have access to any sort of private health care?

You could have a massively long wait for assessment let alone CBT or other therapies.

I suggest you don't say things like 'being a bit odd' is the lower end of the autistic spectrum then.

No
This would be privately funded.
But I could set aside enough for maybe 20 sessions over time.
TJ
I appreciate the input but I know I need help mate. The boss man tried to mediate with walking therapy so me and the person at work who triggers me were made to go out for a walk and it all kicked off and for a second I considered walking out in front of an HGV as a way to remove myself from the situation rather permanently so maybe there's a lot more going on than someone who knew someone else who said they might be on the spectrum . Most guys are to some degree.

Again - not what I said.  Jeepers. 

sirromj
Full Member
I suggest you don’t say things like ‘being a bit odd’ is the lower end of the autistic spectrum then.

I don't think TJ meant any offence by what he said, in fact I took it as more of a bit of self reflection on his part and about himself more than the op.

singletrackmind
Full Member
No
This would be privately funded.
But I could set aside enough for maybe 20 sessions over time.

That's very good news my friend. I hope you find yourself in a far better place in the not too distant future.

I appreciate the input but I know I need help mate.

Fair enough.  sounds like you meet this "When its disabling ie effecting your life negatively to a significant extent"

The boss man tried to mediate with walking therapy so me and the person at work who triggers me were made to go out for a walk and it all kicked off

WTF...I'm not supprised that ended with more problems than it began with!

To me that sounds like the boss (I assume your employer) delegating management responsibilites onto the staff, 'lock them in a room until they make peace with each other'?

Well that's not going to work.

He did apologise after we got back and I told him I was resigning.
He is ok but can't read a room . Telling staff on NMW you just got a BMW at £17k when all they can afford is 40p super noodles for lunch is abit of a dick move.

He is ok but can’t read a room . Telling staff on NMW you just got a BMW at £17k when all they can afford is 40p super noodles for lunch is abit of a dick move.

Sounds like a bit of a "character".

Has he got a contract to build a solar farm, by any chance?

I was originally labelled as autistic in my early 30's but over the last decade or so that has proved to be not a very good fit, APD fits me much better although I still describe my self as suffering from Imposter Syndrome when asked as it's at least understood by joe public! I have almost all of the stuff in the left circle above but major on the social stuff hence the Imposter Syndrome! I don't have a strong need to be liked though, as long as people aren't actively bullying me (was severely bullied since I can remember and it has only recently not been a problem) then I'm happy enough.

I also recognise some of those boxes but I’ve never really been eager to see which disorders I could possibly get diagnosed with.

I wasn't either and having been through the tests a decade ago I wouldn't recommend it really as it tries to put you in boxes whereas almost everyone is a mix of stuff.

Talking is good for some people. This always comes up as the way forward but it’s not always the case.

Tried a few talking therapies and they all just made me worse. I find writing things down works far better, either for private use or to show to others. Currently going through a period of extreme anxiety after a rough few years and nothing is currently working so eager to follow this thread and see what other suggestions crop up.

I would start with a formal diagnosis.  I thought I had pretty much everything condition/personality disorder possible at one point or another.  Several bad experiences with doctors and therapists made me reluctant to seek a formal diagnosis.

But yeah, if it's getting to the point you want to throw yourself under an HGV it's time to seek some sort of diagnosis.  Just be careful and don't let yourself get fobbed off.  I was initially misdiagnosed as being bipolar and spent 10 years taking drugs I didn't need and getting gradually worse.

A proper DSM diagnosis should take several sessions and lots and lots of questions/discussion.

My kids keep telling me (in a light hearted way) that i'm "on the spectrum", I've always replied "Sod off", having looked at that Venn diagram posted above i'm starting to think that maybe they have a point!

Like TJ I don't think seeking an official diagnosis is going to make any difference to my life at this time though. OP I hope you can find something that does help you, I have had a couple of periods of talking therapies in the past and whilst this is only my personal experience, I have to say that CBT did nothing for me, what did help was Transactional analysis, or TA therapy.

sirromj

I have spotted the source of confusion perhaps.  "At what point does being a bit odd become something that needs a label? "  Is referring to all sorts of human behaviors not specific to ASD or APD.  We all know folk that are a bit odd - do they always have a diagnosable condition?

Also "At what point on the spectrum from being a bit odd to having a disabling condition" thats the spectrum of human behaviour.  I never refer to ASD as "being on the spectrum"  following discussions with folk both with ASD and experts in ASD

This is also why I referred to myself as having strong autistic traits rather than "on the spectrum" or being autistic.

I can see why you read into what I wrote as something I did not mean

Missed nuance in text based debate.  Sorry if it annoyed you.  Hopefully now you can see what I mean

I think we have to be careful with self-diagnosing.  If I looked at the diagram above when I was trying to figure out what was wrong with me I'd assume I had Avoidant Personality Disorder as well.

Like I said, if you are at the point it's significantly affecting you it's best to get a formal diagnosis.  A proper one, though.  Not a 5 minute chat and a label.

Be very careful diagnosing yourself with psychological conditions, we lack the objectivity to assess ourselves. The online questionnaires are of dubious validity too.

although I still describe my self as suffering from Imposter Syndrome

I think that's quite normal and healthy, it shows self awareness. Much better than those who suffer from Dunning-Kruger!

We all know folk that are a bit odd

We're all a bit odd! It's that some people are more aware of it than others. NB Not to dismiss people with real issues, but we can all find a bit of OCD, Paranoia, Imposter Syndrome etc in each of us if you go looking.

I wouldn’t recommend taking advice from someone who sums up this stuff as ‘being a bit odd’.

I think if you think carefully about what TJ was saying rather than try to find fault with it he probably has a point - perhaps if that point was being made in a paper it would use different language but broadly the point was worth considering.  Recognising that diversity comes in many different forms and actually enriches society is not the same as having to label every variant of human kind.

Sometimes its useful to have a label - to help others understand you, your behaviour and how to support/get the best out of you.

Sometimes its counter productive.

I would agree with Kramer - you are not the best person to diagnose psychological conditions (or indeed physiological ones), especially not with internet based advice.

However, if its based on this:

Came to a head after I missed a tickbox at work and the way the error was reported ( 30 seconds after walking in the door Monday morning ) started a cycle of avoidance, because why would you want to go out of your way to talk to someone who is just brusque.?

Perhaps most of us are APD?  Someone else being a **** with poor social skills does not mean you must have personality disorder even if you reacted in a way you are not proud of or think others might not.  I've lost count of the number of times I've had to play mediator between people who don't like confrontation and those who love to point out failings.  Both parties can learn a lot about how to get the best our of each other.  Those meetings always should involve donuts!

One thing I would add is, that as far as I know, personality disorders are characterised by being fixed patterns of behaviour and thinking that are not amenable to therapeutic intervention.

I also agree with the previous comment about people who would previously been considered a “bit odd” now having diagnoses. I know that some people find it extremely useful, but not all do, and some find it limiting and potentially harmful.

At the moment we seem to be obsessed with labelling people, partly because a label is needed in order to access extra support. I can’t help thinking it would be better if we were a bit more compassionate and supportive to everybody, no matter what they score on a questionnaire.

One thing I would add is, that as far as I know, personality disorders are characterised by being fixed patterns of behaviour and thinking that are not amenable to therapeutic intervention.

I think that's outdated thinking, to be honest.

DBT in particular is being successfully used to treat Borderline Personality Disorder and Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

Personality disorders do have a reputation for being difficult to treat or even untreatable which is why many sufferers can find it very difficult to find therapists willing to treat them but thankfully these attitudes seem to be slowly changing.

I think that’s outdated thinking, to be honest.

Thanks, you’re correct.

Comparing my self to the table above has made me feel slightly alarmed. 

Then I read the link to the Kevin W Grant article and now even more alarmed.

I thought i just wasn't a fan of people but now realise that things that have happened in my child hood have made me feel socially unacceptable. 

I suffer massively with imposter syndrome, cant maintain eye contact and never feel good enough for any situation.

I also struggle to make an maintain new friendships in case they realise Im not good enough to be a friend.

Erm..............

@footflaps +1

Sorry if it annoyed you. Hopefully now you can see what I mean

Thanks, yes I do see it now. I decided to get a diagnosis, in part to better understand myself, in part to be a better parent and better understgand my two young children (both diagnosed). However part of me refuses to accept it and still wants to believe I'm normal (or just a little bit odd).

However part of me refuses to accept it and still wants to believe I’m normal (or just a little bit odd).

Honestly, there is no such thing!

A flippant quote I know but "There are only two types of people in this world, those that are fed up and those  that know they are fed up".

We're all wandering round worrying about our oddities not realising that all the "normal" people around us are doing exactly the same...

Maybe it's just social intolerance of people who live in a different way then.
However. It's kinda hard to push past the low self esteem , failing to maintain eye contact , alcohol as a crutch , self harm , suicidal thoughts , couple of friends , refusing to see my family at Christmas , avoiding going out, trust issues , refusing to believe anyone could actually like me , 1 girlfriend in my entire life, no one night stands , no holiday flings , no kids , crying alot randomly, feeling sad all the time , finding reasons to avoid social gatherings, add in imposter syndrome and you start to think that being locked up in a car outside a pub, in the dark, for hours repeatedly by a parent might have had some sort of psychological impact, amongst lots of other things

Singletrackmind

It really does seem like a bit of help could benefit.

Personally i am a big fan of exploratory or person centred counselling rather than directive.   The aim is to help you come up with your own answers.   Ive had a fair bit of this over the years especially recently.   The key thing is the relationship between you and the counseller. So don't be afrais toshop around

Its important to go in with an open mind and to be honest and open with them

I am not sure the person i used has expertise inthe areabut i can check when i am back home

Good luck.  You have started the journey and a journey of a thousand miles starts with that first step

My daughter was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder. On her first meeting with her therapist her therapist said to her that she'd had other clients with it who don't have it now. The message was that this is in many cases if not all curable. In her case for certain her therapist was right. A change that was not just profound but years later is sustained.

I suggest you don’t say things like ‘being a bit odd’ is the lower end of the autistic spectrum then.

I don’t think TJ meant any offence by what he said, in fact I took it as more of a bit of self reflection on his part and about himself more than the op.

We all know folk that are a bit odd
We’re all a bit odd! It’s that some people are more aware of it than others. NB Not to dismiss people with real issues, but we can all find a bit of OCD, Paranoia, Imposter Syndrome etc in each of us if you go looking.

I’m pretty damn certain that a fair number of people consider me ‘a bit odd’, especially a few people I’ve worked with, because of my refusal to conform to what they considered the correct way to dress, the correct sports to follow, the correct type of music to listen too, and especially so for a man of my age.

I also refuse to pander to their narrow-minded prejudices, because I’m absolutely certain that those who are behaving in a way they feel is socially acceptable and appropriate are hiding their own faults behind carefully constructed stereotypes and behaviours; what are they doing behind their closed doors and curtains?

Honestly, there is no such thing!

A flippant quote I know but “There are only two types of people in this world, those that are fed up and those  that know they are fed up”.

We’re all wandering round worrying about our oddities not realising that all the “normal” people around us are doing exactly the same…

I get what you're saying but there are definitely levels to it.

If you're at the point where you have the symptoms the OP is describing (particularly the suicide ideation) then it's gone beyond the 'normal' part of the spectrum.

Many people can function exceptionally well in some situations but others have them resorting to self-harm and/or suicide attempts just to cope.  This can often lead to accusations of faking because the contrast between the situation where they perform exceptionally well and the situation where they fall apart is so stark.

Once you're at the constant suicide ideation or self harm stage you are not 'like everyone else' anymore.

Saying that, it's very easy to look at a list of symptoms and self-diagnose with something.  That's why a proper evaluation is so important.

singletrackmind - I have sent you a PM

Bumpity bump as I don't thing singletrackmind has seen my PM and I hope it has some useful stuff in it

Message received, many thanks

I decided that at the age I was there was no point in chasing a formal diagnosis.

I had this conversation with a "social prescriber" a few weeks ago. He said that a diagnosis isn't necessarily just for the patient's benefit but for everyone else's. Eg, your employer. I'd never really considered it like that. I'm now on a waiting list.

Don’t be too quick to think there is something wrong with you.

I'm increasingly of the mind that it's a numbers game. What we call neurotypical is, well, just that, it's "typical." There's more of them. If they were a minority we'd have support groups for them. Eg, "stop staring into people's eyes when you're talking to them, it's threatening and weird."

I had this conversation with a “social prescriber” a few weeks ago. He said that a diagnosis isn’t necessarily just for the patient’s benefit but for everyone else’s. Eg, your employer. I’d never really considered it like that. I’m now on a waiting list.

Its very much a balance.  If I had been 30 then a diagnosis might have been useful in gaining me access to services and to help get workplace adjustments, at 55 this was much less so.   You have to consider what a formal diagnosis will give you and if there is any benefit to you directly or indirectly

Its also partly philosophical - as a nurse working with old folk I was always far more interested in abilities and disabilities than labels.  Social model of disability rather than medical model if you like

Hi Singletrackmind the first thing that sprang to mind when I read your thread title was Bowlbys "Attachment theory" - as one of the four basic attachment styles is "avoidant". I then went on to read a subsequent post and wondered whether knowing about attachment theory might help you at all. It's less self diagnosis I think, more a help to understand self and others.

I find it fascinating; essentially Bowlby who was a psychologist working in the 50s and 60s, theorised that our social and emotional development as children is directly linked to the relationships and experiences we have with our primary caregivers. We then take this into adulthood. He concluded that there were fours basic styles: secure, disorganised, avoidant and ambivalent. They sometimes get called slightly different things. Even though his work is some decades old now, it still stands and is taught in relevant subjects. It has been added to by more modern theorists who have included other styles.

So absolutely everybody has an attachment style, and they can also be mixtures. I have found it really helpful to think about my own, as it demystifies to some extent why I react the way I do. It also helps me to understand others a little. The good news is that it is suggested attachment styles don't have to be permanent.

There is tons about it on the internet. You may know about it already, but if not it may help you to make a bit more sense of things, to go along with any other reading and courses of action you have decided on as per above. This is one website I just found which I think explains it well.

https://www.verywellmind.com/attachment-styles-2795344#:~:text=The%20concept%20of%20attachment%20styles,ambivalent%2C%20avoidant%2C%20and%20disorganized.

Take care