My wife is asking how Muslim students manage to finance degree courses. Anyone got any experience or resources?

Move to Scotland for three years?

same as normal students i’d imagine……………not sure where “your wife” is going with this?

Sharia loans?

Are you talking about Muslims sent to the UK to study?

If so, I have a fair bit of knowledge on that. Saudi Arabia for example has about 20,000 people at any one time here studying in the UK. All state paid on the condition that they return to Saudi to utilise the skills they’ve learned overseas for the advancement of Saudi Arabia

If it’s just normal students, then I’d imagine the same way any student pays for their studies, regardless of religion?

Need more info. Either student loan, sponsored or bank of mum and dad, like any other student. If overseas could be sponsored by an employer or an awards scheme, or again, bank of mum and dad, just like any other international student.

https://www.islamicfinanceguru.com/personal-finance/is-a-student-loan-haram/

I think the point is that under islam ( as it should be if you follow the bible) interest is seen as immoral

I know sharia banks lend money with a fixed fee to pay but no interest. I would imagine similar for devout muslim students

Some muslims do not mind conventional interest

I think the point is that under islam ( as it should be if you follow the bible) interest is seen as immoral

The same students who drink copious amounts of alcohol in the student accommodation that I work in.

same as normal students i’d imagine……………not sure where “your wife” is going with this?

Here at a guess

a Muslim cannot lend money to, or receive money from someone and expect to benefit.

You could argue that a student loan isn’t really a loan. Most people will never pay it all back. So does it make much difference if you are charged interest on it?

Money is gifted to them under Shari’ah. They believe money itself holds no value, it’s just something to exchange for goods and services.
Making money from money i.e. interest is frowned upon under their religion (Haram)

Yes indeed you cannot charge interest if you’re Muslim nor can you pay it, as I understand. So there are various organisations that exist to get around this, but the idea still puts people off going to uni apparently. The workarounds are what we’re interested in.

Well the SLC loan interest rates are quite immoral, so I reckon Muslims are onto something here!

The same students who drink copious amounts of alcohol in the student accommodation that I work in.

I suspect the ones that drink aren’t going to be overly bothered by the Quran opinion on loan interest. As I also suspect that those that are will not be drinkers. Not sure you can conflate the two?

I suspect the ones that drink aren’t going to be overly bothered by the Quran opinion on loan interest. As I also suspect that those that are will not be drinkers. Not sure you can conflate the two?

I believe that the actual study on this is it is only forbidden to get drunk, rather than drinking alcohol itself.
Hang on….Find something about it…..
““If the same alcoholic drink was consumed by one person without getting drunk, it is not haram, while being consumed by another person to drunkenness makes it haram [for this person],” the sheikh Khaled Al Gendy, (famous Islamic cleric and a member of the Supreme Council for Islamic Affairs) said, highlighting the difference between drinking liquor and getting drunk.”

The pretty much the same as the bible. Drinking is ok, but not drunkenness, as thats an assault on the body and spirit.

I think OP’s wife has actually only been thinking about a very small subset of the Muslim university population, most will finance just like anyone else would.

I think the small group Muslims that truly follow the letter of the religion will either use family money, shariah bank money, or drug money/organised crime money (apparently there isn’t much difference between the last 2 categories)

The pretty much the same as the bible. Drinking is ok, but not drunkenness, as thats an assault on the body and spirit.

Which brand or branch of islam is that? there is not one islam, there are many different interpretations. Go to Saudi and you’ll find a completely different interpretation – alcohol is utterly prohibited. They can’t even touch it let alone drink it. Any product cosmetic products with alcohol in are forbidden for example. Problem with all these religions..its not the ‘word of god’ or anything, its the interpretation of some grey haired, grey bearded cleric bod. For example the Quoran is not specific about women wearing the burqa or even the hijab, but the interpretation differs across the Middle East and you’ll see a huge variety of what women wear in public across the region and muslim countries.

There is no one single set of rules for all muslims, and like the bible from which is is based, the Quran is just as vague and full of contradictions. Travel across the muslim world and you will see a huge difference in customs ranging from pretty mild, not much different to a westerner..happy to drink alcohol and get drunk, to the extreme where some wont even be in a building that has alcohol in under its roof.

When I traveled with work in the region and took the customer team I worked with out occasionally I’d have to accommodate a range of different strictnesses. So usually took them to a completely dry restaurant then we’d all pretend to say goodbye outside the restaurant and those who were strict would toddle off home and those who were not so strict would hang back pretending to make conversation until all the strict ones had gone then we’ll all go out on the town and get smashed.

I think the issue might be that Sharia loans have to be asset-backed. Or you can buy a car/house because the bank will own that thing and rent it back to you until the term is complete. Harder to see how you would do that on a student loan.

I’ve recently started to wonder that going back through the ages, was religion essentially started as a guide to life e.g. the Bible and the Quran being examples of an instruction manual, or a power based mechanism by religious leaders to control their populous by binding rules under fear of a deity, whilst helping themselves to the er, accidental spoils, e.g medieval Christianity.

Probably a whole new thread.

Usury is also banned by Christian and Jewish doctrine. How do all those Christian and Jewish students finance degree courses?

Government has been considering introducing a Sharia-compliant student finance product for almost a decade, but hasn’t done it yet.

(It would necessarily be on the exact same terms as the existing student loan system, but most likely structured as some sort of bond and the ‘proceeds’ fed back into a ring-fenced pot used to issue future loans).

Here is a consultation from 2014. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/349899/bis-14-984-government-response-to-a-consultation-on-a-sharia-compliant-alternative-finance-product.pdf

I think OP’s wife has actually only been thinking about a very small subset of the Muslim university population

There are a lot of Muslims at the college where she works thinking about what comes after 6th form and it’s come up as an area of concern. Hence the question.

Usury is also banned by Christian and Jewish doctrine. How do all those Christian and Jewish students finance degree courses?

They ignore the bits of their holy books they do not like in a way that is less commonplace in Islam

MOlgrips – that guidance linked to above looked reasonably clear

I’ve recently started to wonder that going back through the ages, was religion essentially started as a guide to life e.g. the Bible and the Quran being examples of an instruction manual, or a power based mechanism by religious leaders to control their populous by binding rules under fear of a deity, whilst helping themselves to the er, accidental spoils, e.g medieval Christianity.

Probably a whole new thread.

My view started off as an attempt to explain the mysterious and to provide rules to live by and became an instrument of power and oppression. Everytime I see one of those magnificent medieval churches I just think – how much could that money and effort have improved the lives of the people instead of being wasted like that on a fancy building

Interest used to be seen as immoral under Christianity also. The only time Jebuz got violent was at the money lenders (overturning tables etc).

That’s a pretty stark demonstration that old religious leaders knew that banks and banking institutions were the biggest threat to their power – so it was codified in the bible (and mammon – the love of evil money is still used today in common parlance).

Islam still has this more strictly – can’t lend or borrow money at interest.

Frankly. Working in big evil banking, and knowing what b&llsh1t our money is (and being way more positive about cryptocurrencies than fiat money because of just how corrupt our money/banking systems are) I think they’re probably right to insist on it.

Yes indeed you cannot charge interest if you’re Muslim nor can you pay it, as I understand. So there are various organisations that exist to get around this, but the idea still puts people off going to uni apparently. The workarounds are what we’re interested in.

I think you need to be careful about saying “you cannot do this if you’re Muslim”. It’s like saying “you cannot have sex with another man if you are Christian”.

If I was trying to work out how to support a group of Muslim students with concerns about their faith’s approach to finance, I’d be on the phone to the local Mosque asking if we could work together to help clarify things and support their/our students rather than declaring what Muslims can and can’t do on a mountain bike forum.

and being way more positive about cryptocurrencies than fiat money because of just how corrupt our money/banking systems are

I mean, yea, if you ignore the fact that it’s **** over the planet, Chinese companies hold larger reserves than central banks and the only use for it so far seems to be dealing in drugs, arms and ransomware.

Seems like a much more ethical investment than paper money.

Which brand or branch of islam is that?

I’ve no idea. Perhaps you should contact Cleric sheikh Khaled Al Gendy, at the Supreme Council for Islamic Affairs.

Im sure he would be keen to learn from your input.

😆 😆
Only kidding wobbli 😆 .
Though on Saudi, that would be like asking whats the favoured brand of condom in the Vatican.

I’ve recently started to wonder that going back through the ages, was religion essentially started as a guide to life e.g. the Bible and the Quran being examples of an instruction manual, or a power based mechanism by religious leaders to control their populous by binding rules under fear of a deity, whilst helping themselves to the er, accidental spoils, e.g medieval Christianity.

Probably a whole new thread.

That’s pretty much how I’ve viewed the different religious groups. More a friendly society.

@poly:

I think you need to be careful about saying “you cannot do this if you’re Muslim”. It’s like saying “you cannot have sex with another man if you are Christian”.

I don’t think you need to be careful saying any of these things. Freedom of speech includes freedom to cause offence – because if you’re challenging belief systems then that offence taken may very well be the result.

Denying the existence of the christian god has been a crime punishable by death for most of the past 2000 years in europe. The ability to criticise religion and religious beliefs is fundamental to our social progress, the emancipation of women, of our LBGT communities. At the core of that is our ability to say “that’s bloody stupid” to religion without comeback.

So, no. We don’t need to be careful saying “Islam says you can’t lend money at interest” – it does. So you “can’t” do that if you’re Muslim. Many muslims do, but technically they can’t. – and more power to them for defying a made up ruleset.

It also goes for “you cannot have sex with another man if you’re christian”. That’s true. The christian god hates the gays. Yet, absolutely bizzarely, gay men still practice christianity, go to church etc. etc.

You can’t legislate for this madness – conformity to a ruleset for a being that doesn’t actually exist – but then it’s been a harshly socially-enforced group madness that’s been pushed globally for a couple of thousand of years, so it takes all sorts.

What we certainly do not need to do is be “careful”. We should, in fact, be the exact opposite – our freedom to criticise religions, our freedoms to criticise non-existent sky-faries, to laugh at long-held “traditions” and beliefs and to denigrate them have been long fought for and have cost many many lives.

There is a lot of pressure to roll these freedoms back – to take us back to the dark ages – and it’s affecting our legislature, into our common parlance.

So I, for one, refuse to be careful. IF you are offended because I point out the idiocy / non-rationality of your beliefs then that’s your problem to deal with – not mine.

The world will continue to be a safer place if we challenge this nonsense openly. As we’ve only recently been “allowed” to do.

So, no. We don’t need to be careful saying “Islam says you can’t lend money at interest” – it does. So you “can’t” do that if you’re Muslim. Many muslims do, but technically they can’t. – and more power to them for defying a made up ruleset.

I think you’ve missed entirely the point of my post!

A Muslim CAN choose to ignore their faith’s teaching on alcohol, borrowing money or any other topic just as a Christian CAN choose to ignore their faith’s teaching on homosexuality, or creation etc.

Just as there are plenty of gay people, and scientists who believe in evolution in the church and who consider themselves Christian there are plenty of people who drink alcohol, borrow money or even eat pork who consider themselves Muslim. Just as there are branches of Christianity that accept gay people (heck there’s even gay ministers) and evolution there are branches of Islam that are more or less extreme in their views.

So crack on and criticise the faith, absolutely crack on and criticise the organised religions, I don’t even mind you criticising people who blindly follow that faith without question – but criticising* them for applying their own critical thinking and deviating from the devout teaching of that religion is destined to have the opposite effect from you want.

*most people who would describe themselves as Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Sikh would take offence at being told – no you are not “you are not following it strictly enough” – which is what you are saying.

I’m not saying be “careful” in some politically correct nonsensical lets tiptoe round the subject way, I’m saying “be careful” you actually understand WTF you are talking about and don’t actually attribute beliefs onto the students they didn’t even know they had!

I’d be on the phone to the local Mosque asking if we could work together to help clarify things and support their/our students

That could depends on if the Mosque is progressive or not, especially when it comes to female students wanting to go.

So I, for one, refuse to be careful.

You have a moral and social obligation to be tactful though. There’s clearly a world of difference between saying ‘I don’t agree with that’ or ‘you’re a **** moron for saying that’. The former is essential for debate and learning, and the latter is pretty worthless and only serves to make the speaker feel big and clever.

“you cannot have sex with another man if you’re christian”. That’s true. The christian god hates the gays.

Ah no, someone wrote a book saying that, but most other writers didn’t say anything on the subject. So it’s open to interpretation, rather than being a case of ‘ignoring the rules’. What you have to remember is that the Bible is a collection of books written by some fairly random people, and compiled by the church authorities a long time ago, based on what they wanted to say. The church has changed a lot over the 15 or so centuries, and so has the teaching. Personally this seems quite reasonable to me. Progress and development is good.

@poly

🙂 Cool. 100%.

@molgrips – nah, god hates the gays. You can write what you like to “re-interpret” the very clear thousands of year violent homosexual repression root-caused by the christian churches.

Of course, churches across europe are scrambling to show that they’re inclusive because they’re losing followers hand over fist and they’ll take followers whereever they can get ’em – and they’ll “interpret” the rules however they need to so they can achieve their desparate aims.

But you only have to look at Africa where the catholic church is still actively condemning condom use in Aids-riddled communities to see that the leopard hasn’t changed it’s spots.

So, I don’t think there’s actually a “moral and social obligation” to be tactful about these things. I think it’s a “nice to have” – but the social mix of different people honestly expressing their differing opinions – including ridicule – is hugely powerful.

Yeah, if you ridicule someone for their belief in non-rational idiocy you’re likely to a) upset them and b) potentially entrench their attitude. But other people who are sat on the fence see this and waver.

There’s a reason that the catholic church was apoplectic over Life of Brian. Because ridicule works.

Of course, churches across europe are scrambling to show that they’re inclusive because they’re losing followers hand over fist and they’ll take followers whereever they can get ’em – and they’ll “interpret” the rules however they need to so they can achieve their desparate aims.

Alternatively, the church is changing to reflect modern values, which would be a good thing. Amazing how you can paint this as a negative, castigating them for not sticking to what you think the rules are (even though they are the ones who decide the rules) whilst at the same time despising the rules. That’s a **** up way of looking at things and just goes to show you just want to hate.

There’s a reason that the catholic church was apoplectic over Life of Brian. Because ridicule works.

Life of Brian was clever satire. It wasn’t actually anti-religious at all, it lampooned society. You coming on STW and excoriating all religious people for sticking to rules that you also excoriate really isn’t in the same league.

That could depends on if the Mosque is progressive or not, especially when it comes to female students wanting to go.

Probably better speaking to a uni student association, I’d imagine there would be someone knowledgable to talk to.

Probably better speaking to a uni student association, I’d imagine there would be someone knowledgable to talk to.

British Muslim Council would also be a good shout.

sorry @molgrips – you’re religiously *cough* ignoring the bits of the argument you really don’t like:

But you only have to look at Africa where the catholic church is still actively condemning condom use in Aids-riddled communities to see that the leopard hasn’t changed it’s spots.

but that’s my last post on it. Promise 🙂

you’re religiously *cough* ignoring the bits of the argument you really don’t like:

Not at all, I’m picking holes in your poor understanding of the subject. I’m well aware of the bad and good done in the name of religion as well as everything else. You don’t need to summarise the whole of religion in one single judgement. It has been a major part of human existence for tens of thousands of years, in many forms, so it’s not possible in any meaningful sense. You can point your finger at institutions, periods or even individuals though. Safe to say that the Spanish Inquisition was a bad thing, for example.

I didn’t expect that.