What about the 7/7 inquest with the Ambulance technician who decided not to act on initiative and ‘sit tight’ even though he was the first on scene?

Yeah Woody the National Agreement in the end was “Sort it out yourselves” so that was that.

£250 per year is pathetic, as you know most of the busy stations will get that and more per month for all the meal breaks they didn’t get. Not because they got the only call of the day whilst on their break because they never got back from going out from before the start of their shift.

What about the 7/7 inquest with the Ambulance technician who decided not to act on initiative and ‘sit tight’ even though he was the first on scene?

Hora, you do understand our protocols for treating large casualty incidents? I’m going to say no with you troll like comment.

Yes and why did firemen at the scene shout and swear at him whilst people were dying?

Troll? A member of the public has a perception of what the emergency services does.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2010/11/03/7-7-inquest-vital-time-wasted-by-medics-115875-22686861/

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2010/10/29/7-7-inquest-firefighters-angrily-swore-at-paramedic-after-he-refused-to-take-injured-victims-to-hospital-115875-22668262/

All I can say is I hope some real good comes out of this inquest.

Yes and why did firemen at the scene shout and swear at him whilst people were dying?

As Drac has pointed out Hora – you know nothing about protocols and the reasons they are in place, so probably best to STFU and save your comments for something you know about.

Yes and why did firemen at the scene shout and swear at him whilst people were dying?

Frustration, pressure and stress would be my guess but what ever it was there’s no need for it but having never been in a situation as bad as that I can’t say how I’d react myself.

Troll? A member of the public has a perception of what the emergency services does.

Perception or lack of understanding? Still came across as troll like or at least having a stir.

First on scene at a mass casualty event has to asses various things and not treat patients. They’re of no use if they start treating people, without knowing where the exact location is, best area to approach from, other services dangers in the area and number if casualties then you end up with a poor and delayed response from back up support.

All I can say is I hope some real good comes out of this inquest.

Your edited your post so I’ll now answer this bit. All emergency services are ahead of the report on this, Ambulances services have introduced HART crews in case of such events.

http://www.ambulancehart.org/

Perception or lack of understanding? Still came across as troll like or at least having a stir

I really hope that accusation isn’t thought of or levelled in the inquest.

Do you know what a troll is in this situation? I feel you’ve missused a term here.

My thoughts on this are from a member of the public. I see what I see and as such I am perfectly entitled to see the evidence in a dull light.

I really hope that accusation isn’t thought of or levelled in the inquest.

Hora, raising the issue at inquest is not the same as chucking one line in or a forum discussing a different case. I reckon it’s you that doesn’t understand the term troll, ok you weren’t being deliberate but you comment wasn’t of much use to case in question. It’d be like me asking Bruneep about the swearing fireman or why a fireman wouldn’t rescue a man drowning in a lake screaming not to die. It’s has little relation to the case in question.

Member of the public can think what they want. They are not the ones who are going without meal breaks or having their safety threatened.

Rule one of looking after other peoples health – look after your own health first.

So is the upshot of all this the usual story that people are shocked and outraged because a system of working was put in place by management, someone followed it and, as a result, a fallacy in the system was highlighted.

Nope – still dont buy it. You join these services knowingly wanting to the help the public and to an extent sacrifice your efforts to help others and their plight. Its a different role from HGV driving, process operators, manufacturing, IT etc etc … with an emergency service, you put yourself out for others ( I know, cause I’ve done those other roles before doing my current one ) Yeah, OK, there may be systems of working put in place, but personally I dont think I could say no.

OK, I dont know how the call from the control room came out, but I would like to think that I would be asking the nature of the call and finding out more about it.

I’ve said already, its a rural location … the field of play is different to the urban scene where these rules and and ‘systems of working’ are set in place.

To refuse a call thats 800metres away ( however serious ) and knowingly expect another one of their colleagues to blue-light it 21miles in a heavy ambulance over country roads, putting themselves, and other road users at a greater level of danger for that period, and to get the helicopter to come as well, just because he’s on a break, I think is wrong and short-sighted on this persons part.

I keep saying it, but the rural scene is different, and not everyone realises it. I’ll give you an example from my last first aid refresher where we are doing a scenario of a collapsed male, non responsive. At the training was a girl from the city

girl: “… un-responsive male, ambulance please etc etc “
control: ” roger, … ambulance eta 13 mins ….”
girl stops and looks round at the guy running the scenario and askes ” how long ? dont you mean 3 or 4 minutes ? “
guy simply responds … thats what it is round here, its what we work to. The girl just couldn’t believe the different in response times … from the coty, didn’t understand the rural aspects.

Going back to my point, I just dont buy it. I think its poor show. You can bleat about the ‘systems of working’ all you want, but if your the front line of an emergency service, you ( to an extent ) put yourself out for others.

Member of the public can think what they want. They are not the ones who are going without meal breaks or having their safety threatened.

Rule one of looking after other peoples health – look after your own health first.

800metre drive or a 21mile drive … which is the better health wise for the ambulance workforce ?

Drac, on that point, it was one-line and slightly off-topic. Agree but its not intended as a troll per se.

If I join the Police I’d join on the understanding of what to expect, I’d probably join the Specials, get an eyeful of what to expect.

I most certainly wouldn’t join as a complete fluffy bunny.

I’m no hero and I’m not brave however I can never stand aside and let another suffer.

*unless its ourkidsam who gave his life for the rest of us to escape 😆

Fisha may I ask what it is you do, how long for?

Your really not coming across very good here more of a ‘glory boy’. There’s a lot more to working in Emergency Services than “You join these services knowingly wanting to the help the public and to an extent sacrifice your efforts to help others and their plight.”

Yeah you have to accept certain things like working bank holidays and Xmas but we’re entitled to breaks it’s how they are decided locally that’s the problem.

Drac, on that point, it was one-line and slightly off-topic. Agree but its not intended as a troll per se.

I came across troll like though.

I most certainly wouldn’t join as a complete fluffy bunny.

Sensible option.

I’m no hero and I’m not brave however I can never stand aside and let another suffer.

It’s not a case of that though, like I said up there concentrating treating one means the others will suffer from poor back up. Not treating any and assessing will help all, there’s strict criteria to follow who gets treatment first but that comes way down the line and it may not be who the public think should.

I didn’t think you were trolling Hora – just being yourself 😉

Fisha

Just to make you aware – an ambulance is activated immediately a call comes in ie. before any basic triage is done on the call (this is necessary in order to attempt to meet response times which are now timed from the moment a call comes in). The ambulance then has to proceed in ’emergency reponse mode’ to the location on blue lights and sirens until the call is categorised as more info becomes available.

With regard to

but if your the front line of an emergency service, you put yourself out for others.

Yes, we do, every shift !!!!

800metre drive or a 21mile drive … which is the better health wise for the ambulance workforce ?

Goes without saying but that’s not the issue your picking up only the bits you want to.

It’s not just a 800m drive though is it. They would have needed to follow it through all the way to the hospital.

We also dont know what they had been doing before they went on their break. They may well have been knackered.

Fisha the more the employers take the piss the more the employees lose their good will. and the more the employers keep taking the piss it just turns it into a job.

Guys your not railing against the world/taking your frustrations out on one person. Fisha has an opinion (and me to an extent on this).

Calm down 🙂

I’m in the Police and its not about being a glory boy. Its the reality of the job we are in, sometimes there are calls where your break gets cut short.

I’m certainly not happy if i’m sitting down, having my break, and a call comes out which means i’ll have to cut the break short, but I would do it, and such cases are down to individual scenarios and weighing up the balance.

Yes, there are times where I say to control that I’m on my break and get another crew to attend.

There are also times where I have initially said no to a query as to whether I am free for a call, then hear over the radio the details of the call being passed to a crew that is miles away in another town. I’ve then thought, actually, I should be be going to the call cause I’m nearest, i’ll cut the break short and then take the call instead of the crew in the other town.

That sort of decision takes in my own health and the health of my colleagues, the locations, the nature of the call … and not glory hunting of calls.

It’s not just a 800m drive though is it. They would have needed to follow it through all the way to the hospital.

Would there have been any way to transfer the handling over to the other crew, thereby freeing up the chap to get back to his break. Almost like a first responder type response … or does an ambulance have to see through its call without transferring ?

It reads as though the call was to a single chap … which to me implies a first responder type role anyway … I thought in such cases they would hand over to a full ambulance crew anyway.

I’m certainly not saying that these things should happen all the time, I’m just saying that there is a level of putting yourself out a bit from time to time.

I’m pretty sure we are calm Hora – it’s a requirement to enable us to do the job we do. We are merely pointing out some facts and correcting some misconceptions.

Fisha obviously doesn’t need any of this, of course, as he has been on a 1st aid refresher and is a policeman!

My comments have been about the general decision of attending the call, and not level of medical service that would have been given at the scene. Please dont be-little the training we get. Its there as a first line of trying to preserve life till a properly trained service gets there, and not much more. Likewise, I’m not be-littling other emergency services and any training they may get in Police aspects of services rendered to the public.

Fisha the more the employers take the piss the more the employees lose their good will. and the more the employers keep taking the piss it just turns it into a job.

+1

‘Post Office’ Management, and everywhere you look its coming back in fashion.

member of the public has a perception of what the emergency services does

I know what the army do. Can I lead the war effort?

first para on scene at 7/7 could have done what he was told by the fire service, helped one person, and only one person, while everyone else was left to suffer. Or he could count patients, work out what resources are required, wether paramedics were needed or minibus type ambulances would be adequate for walking wounded. Also to work out which way the ambulances should come from if a road is blocked (no good parking 200yds away) and also the best way out (think traffic and not being blocked by other ambulances/ police/ fire engines etc). Also they must then establish a command post so then other crews arrive they can be directed to the most critical patients, be told what equip they will need etch. A horrible job, because of course he’d want to get in there and help people, but instead must be restrained and organise the scene. By doing so, more people can be saved.

Imagine if every ambulance just parked up as close as possible, with no idea whats going on, grabbed the nearest patient and left. Then all went to the same A&E which suddenly has no beds and no staff, that means vehicles queuing at hospital and no resources to treat patients involved in the attacks. Don’t forget, every normal call that comes in, keeps on coming in, and I’m pretty sure LAS staff don’t spend much time sitting round waiting for calls either.

in relation to the OP, and the many comments relating to it, comparing other emergency services is pointless, just because we all have blue lights doesn’t mean our jobs are similar in anyway, perhaps if i told the fire service or police staff how to their job I’d get flamed (and rightly so) I have a lot of respect for both fire and police staff, sometimes they have procedures i don’t understand (more often with the police) but i don’t question this. If they say “its the rules” then fair enough.

just one quick question, If this chap had have responded to this emergency, on his own. What would he have done? she still wouldn’t be going to hospital (we’re good, but we can’t drive and treat a patient), she would still have sadly died and the press would be ripping someone else apart as no double manned ambulance was available?

To refuse a call thats 800metres away ( however serious ) and knowingly expect another one of their colleagues to blue-light it 21miles in a heavy ambulance over country roads, putting themselves, and other road users at a greater level of danger for that period, and to get the helicopter to come as well, just because he’s on a break, I think is wrong and short-sighted on this persons part.

Medical knowledge aside (because it is not relevant in this case), you have criticised a decision made by an ambulance technician without being in possession of the full facts. You should know better!

BTW – the helicopter would probably have been sent anyway due to the nature and location of the incident regardless of where the nearest ambulance was.

I’m in the Police and its not about being a glory boy. Its the reality of the job we are in, sometimes there are calls where your break gets cut short.

I wasn’t talking about the break thing being a glory boy. Anyway, if you read my early posts and others in the Ambulance service now due to changes we longer get paid during breaks so are off duty. In the NEAS we don’t get a call whilst stood down so wouldn’t be aware of an incident in the area.

Reading the SAS policy as posted above some have opted out of being called, other in for a small annual fee of £250. The station received a call and the chap in question answered it would appear he said “No I’m not willing I’m on my break.” which seems to be within their guidelines. Although this is all unclear.

We are on a closed radio system, we’re not aware of who is receiving what calls in what areas so not possible for us to say we’ll travel instead. We’re however all fitted with GPS so control know who is where exactly anyway.

Would there have been any way to transfer the handling over to the other crew, thereby freeing up the chap to get back to his break. Almost like a first responder type response … or does an ambulance have to see through its call without transferring ?

No this isn’t allowed unless you get there and find it’s not an emergency and rebook as an urgent transfer. In this case that would have happened, anyway even if he had gone I’d almost guarantee the other crew soon as taking off that job would receive another.

It reads as though the call was to a single chap … which to me implies a first responder type role anyway … I thought in such cases they would hand over to a full ambulance crew anyway.

It’s unclear but as a Technician it’s unlikely he works on Rapid Response but given it’s rural location it is possible he’s a sole responder.

That sort of decision takes in my own health and the health of my colleagues, the locations, the nature of the call … and not glory hunting of calls.

You missed what I mean here. You join these services knowingly wanting to the help the public and to an extent sacrifice your efforts to help others and their plight. that bit was way over the top and what’s get many an ambulance staff backs up. We do the job to help other yes but such comments as that really are OTT.

I’ve been in the ambulance service for 21 years, I’ve at times been annoyed at not getting a break for 8 hours plus or even before the stand system came in not at all in 12 hours. I regularly do 14 hours in a shift instead of the 12 I’m supposed to do, I’ve worked more Christmases than I’ve had off. I’ve missed the odd kids birthday, big family bashes and celebrations. It’s the nature of the job and no I wouldn’t do anything else I love it.

It’s easy for others to have a dig at us for such things as this but there’s a lot more behind it usually.

brack – Member

I suggest you go out with an ambulance crew bruneep or ask your wife to arrange a day in A&E you clearly have no understanding of healthcare, mental health issues, and general failings of society if you think that by giving a talk to a child it will prevent future adult diabetes, heart failure, schizophrenia, copd, homelessness, drink /drug issues, child abuse, domestic abuse ………..etc etc etc

Right lets go through your post.

I suggest you go out with an ambulance crew bruneep or ask your wife to arrange a day in A&E

My wife is a midwife, why would she arrange a day at A&E when they are separate hospitals?

you clearly have no understanding of healthcare, mental health issues

I never professed to having any! although we have had “awareness training” by the social work dept for spotting signs of “concern”

you think that by giving a talk to a child it will prevent future adult diabetes, heart failure, schizophrenia, copd, homelessness, drink /drug issues, child abuse, domestic abuse

I was pointing out that we had an idea about how to reduce fires and unwanted calls, we worked at it and it has reduced our call outs. Not that it matters but our station received an award from COSLA for the work done in reducing fires and working within the local community.

You still haven’t answered my question.

Not for me to sort out the Ambulance unnecessary calls, that is best done by those within who know the system, what would YOU suggest?

Well what would you do?

We work with a lot of ambos and they are great and have a good working relationship with them. I would hate to be with you at a job if you are anti FS as are on here.

I wish you well brack but I fear we will never agree here. You seem so bitter about something with the FS.

B

as a Technician it’s unlikely he works on Rapid Response

My friend left Bristol ambulance service a little under four years ago, one of the things she was unhappy about in her job was exactly that. ^ Yes, in Bristol, hardly out in the sticks. 😕
As a newly qualified staff nurse in CCU now, she is much much more supported in her work.

This is a ‘damned if you do, damned if you don’t’ scenario by the looks of it.

just one quick question, If this chap had have responded to this emergency, on his own. What would he have done?

He’d have attended, she’d have died anyway, the media circus would instead be “why did he attend when he was fatigued to the point of incompetence rather than letting someone else attend?” and we’d all be setting here nodding sagely going “well, it’s his own fault, he should’ve followed the rules and guidelines, that’s what they’re thre for.”

Far as I can tell, like most of these incidents, there isn’t enough information released to form a reliable opinion. So we rely instead on the media whose raison d’etre is to make stories sound interesting.

Someone here previously said something along the lines of ‘ambulances are routinely dispatched before the call is properly vetted.’ Does this imply that he perhaps declined to attend before anyone realised how critical it was?

Not that I’m defending his actions, just that perhaps circumstances aren’t immediately clear so as an armchair expert it’s hard to be sure what happened.

I know what the army do. Can I lead the war effort?

Be my guest. Bad analogy there Junkyard 😉

With the exception of the paramedics on here, I don’t think many of us can comment.

I’d suggest people read “Tea & Sympathy” for a bit of a jaded snapshot of life as a paramedic – I don’t think the author has made any friends in writing up his anecdotes, but if you read it you do get the distinct feeling that many calls that come through as life threatening are not, and that within his ambulance service (London IIRC) they were under a lot of pressure to respond to anything.

Channel 4 On Demand still lists “The Ambulance: 8 minutes to disaster” which follows 24 hours in the life of one vehicle in an ambulance service, eye opening for the general population to follow how busy these guys can be.[edit] Just checked, it is no longer available 🙁

Not condoning what this guy did, as a nurse I have worked many shifts without breaks and don’t really feel proud of myself for doing so, but at the same time I’ve also never ignored or walked off an emergency situation unless relieved by a colleague.

I do agree with Fishes comments.

You missed what I mean here. You join these services knowingly wanting to the help the public and to an extent sacrifice your efforts to help others and their plight. that bit was way over the top and what’s get many an ambulance staff backs up. We do the job to help other yes but such comments as that really are OTT.

Fair does … reading it back, i can see where you’re coming from … it does read somewhat blazé … beauty of the internet and typing not always coming over the way you meant it I suppose, and your phrasing reads better where your saying your hours , and times between breaks dont always fall into what the manual says, but you still like it.

And its the same for me, and as such I expect there will be times where I put myself out a little for the sake of someone else. Does that read better ? 😉

beauty of the internet and typing not always coming over the way you meant it I suppose

And there-in lies the root of many a spat on here and elsewhere 😉

There are huge problems with the system as it currently stands due to many factors eg. the change in GP hours, increasing numbers of elderly, the culture of drinking until you become unconscious, mobile phones etc.etc and those problems are only going to increase as demand continues to spiral. At least this current incident will bring one of them into focus and hopefully produce a solution agreeable to all concerned. It is however, relatively minor in the ‘big picture’ and there are far more important issues which need to be addressed as a matter of urgency.

Edit : I’d be interested to know what you do Munqe-chick ?

I’d agree with a lot of that, I think there are a number of social issues and general expectations by certain fraternities of the public which place a substantial drain on the system which wastes a lot of peoples time ( and money )

While we’re on the subject, it seems like a good time to attempt to counter the unrealistic portrayal of cardiac arrest on the telly. The reality is that the figures for survival are dismal;

A study of survival rates from out of hospital cardiac arrest found that 14.6% of those who had received resuscitation by ambulance staff survived as far as admission to hospital. Of these, 59% died during admission, half of these within the first 24 hours, while 46% survived until discharge from hospital. This gives us an overall survival following cardiac arrest of 6.8%. Of these 89% had normal brain function or mild neurological disability, 8.5% had moderate impairment, and 2% suffered major neurological disability. Of those who were discharged from hospital, 70% were still alive 4 years later.[33]

From wikipedia, but still an accurate portrait.

It’s really, really, really not like it is on the telly.

“We’re not supposed to answer a call from control if we are on a break. When the controller asked Owen if he was available he said no. A lot of us would have gone to that call-out, but Owen’s very new and I think he didn’t really understand the implications.

from b.r’s post on page two..

I have no idea what the protocol is on a 999 call to an Ambulance controller, and indeed how the call progresses however if the controller asks “are you available” and this chap quite reasonably responds “I’m on my break” the controller must move on to the next option.. Is there a possibility the technician wasn’t given any of the details?
Do Ambulance crews have to sign on and off duty? If control know he was on a break have they made a mistake by asking the technician the wrong questions?

As I said I have no idea how it works but as usual I guess there is a bit more to it than we have reported here…!

A nice noble apology Fisha, yeah communication on forums often gets confused.

And its the same for me, and as such I expect there will be times where I put myself out a little for the sake of someone else. Does that read better ?

Aye that’s better, I’m sure you know what I mean by ‘Glory Boy’ we’ve all had one but they tend not to last long.

I have no idea what the protocol is on a 999 call to an Ambulance controller, and indeed how the call progresses however if the controller asks “are you available” and this chap quite reasonably responds “I’m on my break” the controller must move on to the next option.. Is there a possibility the technician wasn’t given any of the details?

Yes very possible and even just as possible the controller didn’t even though yet, many services have adopted the mobilise the vehicle the secondsthe call comes in. If you dial 999 on a land line we get you address straight away and a vehicle can be active before the call taker knows what it is.

Do Ambulance crews have to sign on and off duty? If control know he was on a break have they made a mistake by asking the technician the wrong questions?

We do but not sure about the SAS, as I’ve said the meal breaks is based on local agreements on how the deal with it.

I like to know why Munque-chick agrees with Fisha?

Nugget of information that will enable you to sleep tonight alert: One of the main reasons Harry Hill is a comedian and not still working as a doctor is that he couldn’t handle the fact that resuscitation has such a poor success rate.