(Not sure if it’s been done- new search function is appalling).

The aim of longer, lower, slacker as a concept was to move away from the lofty, twitchy bikes of the late noughties with their high BB’s, short front-centres and insanely steep head angles. In the beginning the motivation for longer, lower slacker was clear. It was a performance development, and it had to happen, we had reached a limit with dated geometry and the average Joe was riding harder and faster. However it seems to me that in some quarters, longer lower slacker has become a catchphrase for marketing departments and another way to fuel sales. We still have core brands pushing to make bikes faster, and I’d like to think that Airdrop is part of that movement. But as with all successful movements, longer, lower slacker is also starting to be exploited as a marketing tool. It seems to me we’re at risk of losing our way.

Reach numbers are fast becoming bragging rights, it’s like being back in the playground making claims about the length of your Richard.

I would argue where the industry is right now with geometry is a good place. And if we choose to push the boat out much further we will be making bikes the average Joe will find harder to enjoy. The new wave of extreme geometry – for me at least – is a step too far. To me the essence of MTB is fun and having a bike that allows you to go fast, has stability, inspires confidence but also has a lively, playful ride. A bike which allows you to move around and throw some wild shapes is a bike I want to ride.

Either way it’s a topic that’s starting to create division and you’re either a fully signed up Kool Aid drinker, a fence sitter or maybe just confused about all the hoo-ha. But before you reach for that kool refreshing drink of Koolaid ask yourself are you Ron Jeremy? Do you need that super long reach in your life?

Full article here

Article seems to have offended Sick Co. on Instagram..

the small edit has a reach of 420mm – That’s too long for me.

I had to look up the reach for my Medium Edit. turns out it’s 453mm..

mleh, bike feels fine, I’ve never really given it a thought other than what fun I’m having on it.

I don’t know if Sick Bikes were offended at all, I think the reply on insta was just for shits an giggles

Bikes. Cars. Same shit, different industry. Apparently we all want to be driving over weight, bloated out crossovers that have less space than their conventional hatch back cousins. Funny how people moan about one industry more than the other though.

As enthusiasts of cycling, we’ve never had it so good and yet we act like ungrateful brats and moan about the next change in geometry or standard as if we have some form of entitlement. We should embrace change and be thankful that we have the option to take a plunge with it or choose to leave it alone. The majority of other industries do exactly the same and have far less flexibility in terms of backwards compatibility or availability of previous standards.

A lot of it makes sense but all comes down to personal preference and what and how you ride.

I can’t fault my Edit, absolutely love the thing and what Ed has done with Airdrop – saying that I’ve buggered about with the mine making mine all of the above, I’m 6ft on a large and would like it to be a bit bigger ideally.

Really suits my riding but I’ve probably ruined it for a lot of other people – luckily I’ve a hardtail for when I’m in a hurry to get up some hills.

As above, don’t think Sick Bike Co were offender, just joining in.

As above, don’t think Sick Bike Co were offender, just joining in.

Hard to tell with them sometimes.. especially online 😛

Reach: At 6ft 2in and with a preference towards 35mm stems that magic number for me would be 475mm. That’s a number I would describe as a good fit for my height. Not so long that I’m going to be straining on slow-speed, tight turns but long enough to keep me in check when things go sideways.

But isn’t the feel/reach of the bike affected by seat tube angle?

Hard to tell with them sometimes.. especially online

Fair point!

But isn’t the feel/reach of the bike  is affected by seat tube angle?

Erm, I thought reach was is an imaginary horizontal lengtth between middle of BB to middle of headtube…so, no?

probs wrong though.

Erm, I thought reach was is an imaginary horizontal lengtth between middle of BB to middle of headtube…so, no?

it is.. but i would have thought you’d have to take into account the effective seat tube angle combined with reach to know how the bike might feel. he doesn’t talk about seat tube angles in the article

I bet we will all be looking at pictures of bikes like that Airdrop in the first post 10 years from now and ridiculing such bikes…

They will/are getting to an extreme and then the marketing will kick in and sell us on more conservative geo again.

“I bet we will all be looking at pictures of bikes like that Airdrop in the first post 10 years from now and ridiculing such bikes…”

The ridicule is now – that’s photoshopped to be much longer and slacker than a real Airdrop.

Reach isn’t affected by STA.

I agree a lot with what he says – yes it’s personal I get that but the Kool Aid gets a bit much. I’ve got friends who ride who are fully drunk on it, yet they come racing & they now go slower on their new super long bikes & all of a sudden racing has gone form being fun to very serious & lots of moaning about the tracks we’re racing on. They are the same tracks we have raced on for years which were fun before the change.

I don’t deny, if I lived in an area that warranted a massive long sled of a bike with the front wheel in a different county, it would probably be great fun. Usually those areas come with a lift pass though.

That said, i’m hardly a retro grouch, my bike is (probably with the mega long stuff now) considered about average with ~470mm of reach as a large. It is low, and for a mass produced, short travel 29er fairly slack – but in the grand scheme of things it’s not pushing any geometry boundaries.

I’ve tried a few of the mega long bikes & they still don’t suit me, or riding in the south of England. That’s fine though. I also think if people were honest with themselves, they probably don’t suit the way they ride either, rather than trying to force it to work.

I guess it’s nice to have the choice though & if people didn’t push the boundaries, bikes like I want to ride, probably wouldn’t exist either 🙂

Reach isn’t affected by STA.

I know this. Perhaps i should have reworded it. I meant you have to take into account the seat angle, head angle and reach to understand how a bike might fit/feel

I’m not sure I agree 100% on the chainstay ideas as he only considers them in terms of climbing grip and agility elsewhere. Ultimately, if you put the front wheel further away from the BB without extending the chainstays, all else being equal you will result in less weight on the front tyre and therefore less grip for turning corners.

I found this to be an interesting read:

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/bike-fashion-vs-fit-is-longer-always-better-opinion.html

IMO, STA only matters when you’re sat down pedalling up a hill, and reach only matters when you’re out of the saddle hooning down the other side.

but, yeah everything geometry wise matters to a greater or lesser extent. But that’s not what the article is really about.

The ridicule is now – that’s photoshopped to be much longer and slacker than a real Airdrop.

I’m actually glad to hear that! 😀

I’m surprised the usual suspects haven’t chimed in saying that pic^ isn’t progressive/aggressive/slack/long enough before reading the article.

He’s not being controversial really, I don’t think many would claim everyone needs a Pole or Geometron.

I’m mostly in agreement with him on his preferred geometry, except I’m a convert to longer chainstays. Not that I can’t enjoy a bike with a short rear end, but for the trails I ride longer is a bit better.

Can’t remember where it was pointed out, but motorbikes realised really early on that the best way to tune the feel of a bike was the head angle and offset, not the stem. Look at almost any motorbike and the handlebars are pretty much inline with the headtube, even clip’ons are swept back from the stanchions at an angle to please people who like Jones bars.

OK so they do 200mph and their front wheel weighs more than Froome’s bike, but fundamentally I think we’ve just been catching on very very slowly, the idea behind it is nothing new. And they apply it to everything from a sports bike to a chopper, to a MX bike.

On the other hand I think handlebars have been in the right place for decades, I don’t think we need to be into Geometron/Bird/Sick territory, keep the bars in the same place as they always were, and move the headtube forwards.

This concurs with my thoughts, for me, the geometrons are a step too far and I think the geo is potentially even Chris’ own reaction to regain stability due to his bat **** insane suspension tunes. (Chis will have you opening the high speed rebound damping on a DHX2 fully and only using the LSR adjuster – which is totally mad if you take a look at Vorsprungs video on rebound over at Pinkbike, it results in completely the wrong rebound damping curve – dead on the small stuff and way too fast on the end stroke).

My Reign could be a tad longer and slacker, which is why I want the new Rocket. Any slacker though and you should be thinking about riding a full 200mm dh bike, as that is what is truly suited to steep and fast tracks. Not 150/160mm trailbikes on steroids whos suspension can get a lot more overwhelmed in the rough.

Ride what feels good for you and ride enough so you get an idea for what does work for you, I’ve ridden my Reign for three years now – I’d say it took me a full year of riding to really get to know the bike and another year working out what would work better for me. Don’t let others tell you what will work well for you, it’s up to you to find that out yourself.

I feel like with reach what we’ve partly got is an overreaction- I do think bikes were basically too short in reach and wheelbase and that pushing that forward has been really beneficial but you get past the point where moar = betterer, sooner or later enough = enough. For me that’s around 440, 450mm of reach. Wheelbase I don’t know yet. It’s no different to handlebars, I think most people agree now that 640mm was too narrrow but after years of basically adding 20mm a year it’s pretty much topped out.

https://www.daveypushbikes.com/blog/motocross-vs-mountain-biking

Fairly interesting breakdown of MTB geometry here as well.