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  • 9/11 documentary
  • newrobdob
    Free Member

    You mean the lower structure was unable to provide any resistance? None at all?

    Of course it provided resistance, but it was so minimal in its effect it may as well be none. Certainly wouldn’t be enough to show any visible signs of deceleration.

    5plusn8
    Free Member

    therefore unless additional energy is introduced to accelerate the upper portion

    The system is the mobile part of the building, which is not closed in that new layers become mobile and are added to the moving mass.
    The moving part gains momentum by the addition of more mass by each smashed and now mobile layer releasing its PE as KE, so the energy of the moving bit increases. Note momemtumm is p=mv. The mass of the moving bit increases, it also accelerates, so the v bit goes up too.
    It is important only to invoke science if you understand it.

    cheekyboy
    Free Member

    It was about me , some folk on here and the pope – Not sure how you missed that as normally you have such a great understanding of things

    You and the Pope eh, two wonderfully well informed patriarchs 😉

    Three_Fish
    Free Member

    It is important only to invoke science if you understand it.

    You can say that again.

    you could if you used thirty ton tea bags

    Precisely!!! I’d need a thirty ton tea bag to stand any chance of hammering in a nail. Why?

    it really is pointless I have more chance of persuading the pope there is no god as his belief is more rational than this guff

    Indeed; but would it require a controlled explosion to make 000s of unconnected blocks collapse into a pile? Would the same thing happen if all the blocks were glued to their adjacent blocks?

    If we took the top glass from a stack of pint glasss and dropped it back in from, say, 50cm*, will it a) fall to earth, breaking all the other glasses before breaking itself, or b) break some glasses and possibly itself before coming to a halt? If we took a steel-framed tower construction, damaged fewer than 20% of supporting columns across less than 5% of its height, would you expect the portion above the damage to fall symmetrically vertical and destroy the entire structure below it before then destroying itself?

    *relatively, way further than the tops of the towers descended

    maxtorque
    Full Member

    Ok, i say we all agree with Three_braincells that it was a conspiracy, and it was blown up by the US government.

    So, now what you gonna moan about Three now that we are all agreed you are right?? 😉

    Three_Fish
    Free Member

    No need to be a dick, maxtorque. And I didn’t say that anything was blown up by the US Government; Congress would never allow it Shirley.

    5plusn8
    Free Member

    Ok three fish. Imagine you have a building 22 floors high. I remove the 2nd floor, do you agree that the 20 floors above will squash the 1st floor below.?

    Three_Fish
    Free Member

    It’s not in any way a direct comparison, but I’ll go along.

    Yes, in your example the first floor would probably be crushed. Also, the third floor would probably exhibit considerable damage. Damage (distortion) would diminish rapidly from this point, though it’s possible that the tower would actually topple over.

    I chose this for the soundtrack; other videos are available:

    CharlieMungus
    Free Member

    that’s his 2nd law f=ma

    Erm… Not really.

    Drac
    Full Member

    I only really said the documentary was compelling – not true.

    Three_Fish
    Free Member

    ^^^ look at me! Look a me!!

    CharlieMungus
    Free Member

    – ie that thousands of government employees conducted massively destructed and invasive pre-demolition prep on the twin towers which would easily have taken 6 months to a year and no one noticed. No one questioned anything. None of the survivors recall seeing strange men drilling strange holes

    Why would it have taken such a massive team? And so long?

    jam-bo
    Full Member

    Why would it have taken such a massive team? And so long?

    They were really big?

    CharlieMungus
    Free Member

    Is that a question? Or an answer? It doesn’t really explain anything.

    5plusn8
    Free Member

    Yes, in your example the first floor would probably be crushed. Also, the third floor would probably exhibit considerable damage

    Great, your response sounds plausible.

    Now lets move the system on.

    Do you accept that if the there was a floor below this system we described, then the 22 floors, lets assume the bottom 3 of them are now mobile debris, have mass and are moving at some velocity v? IE the 22 floors have not stopped, and the mass of moving material has increased by the mass equal to 1 floor?

    jam-bo
    Full Member

    Hmmm. Makes you think…

    CharlieMungus
    Free Member

    IE the 22 floors have not stopped, and the mass of moving material has increased by the mass equal to 1 floor?

    Has the momentum changed?

    5plusn8
    Free Member

    Has the momentum changed?

    Well the mass has increased and it has been accelerated by gravity. so both v and m are increased, so yes.

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    YOU used to use your intelligence for things other than shit blatant trolling

    CharlieMungus
    Free Member

    Ok, so F=ma stops working, carry on.

    5plusn8
    Free Member

    That’s pretty much the whole point, its a variable mass system and is hence not closed.
    Also F depends on where you measure it..

    CharlieMungus
    Free Member

    YOU used to use your intelligence for things other than shit blatant trolling

    Not trolling, just keeping the science on track and applying a slightly critical eye to some of the statements being made.

    Also, “because they are big” is a bit of a crap answer really isn’t it?

    5plusn8
    Free Member

    applying a slightly critical eye to some of the statements being made.

    Mine will need corrections..

    CharlieMungus
    Free Member

    Also F depends on where you measure it..

    Sure, it’s a problem there is some elasticity in the building, more the higher you are. But I think for now we could consider the force at the interface between the falling bit and the bit underneath. So we have the force crushing the floor below and at the same time slowing the mass above, or at least reducing its momentum.

    5plusn8
    Free Member

    Sure, sounds reasonable.
    I have a statement on the relationship between this force you have defined and the reduction of the momentum etc.
    But I was hoping to keep three fish in the discussion and see if he or I can pick holes in each others story. So I kind of want his comments before moving it on too far, is that fair enough?

    whitestone
    Free Member

    A simple experiment.

    Take a raw egg and place in an egg-cup. Now take a 1Kg weight such as that from a set of old fashioned weighing scales and balance it on top of the egg. It will be supported no problem. Now lift the weight a couple of cm and drop it. The egg will crack and break into pieces.

    That’s the difference between a static and dynamic system.

    The lower 85% of the tower was only designed to hold up the mass of top bit “statically”. There’s some redundancy in the design to allow for excess load but that’s usually in the order of a few percent.

    It’s highly unlikely either top section of the towers would have fallen over. The towers were approximately 70mx70m in cross section so the centre of mass would have had to move at least 35 metres to lie outside the building walls. Each floor of the towers was just under 4m in height. The north tower was hit between the 93rd and 99th floor so there’d only be 11 to 17 floors of material, i.e. a maximum of 68 metres meaning its CofG would be around 35m above the impact. So for it to fall over that point would have to move 35m horizontally. Similar quick calc for the south tower gives a CofG for the section above the impact zone of 60m.

    Look at video of the tops of the towers as they begin to fall, they wobble by a few degrees but nowhere near the amount needed for them to topple over. The path of least resistance for the falling mass was through the structure below.

    Three_Fish
    Free Member

    5plusn8, you are completely ignoring resistance. Even if the lower part of the building were just a pile of steel and concrete, there’s going to be resistance, which is why the domino pyramid is actually quite useful – notice how it takes quite some time to overcome what little resistance is present in its system.

    The lower 85% of the tower was only designed to hold up the mass of top bit “statically”. There’s some redundancy in the design to allow for excess load but that’s usually in the order of a few percent.

    Skyscrapers are designed to transfer force from the top of the structure to the bottom, it’s how they remain stable in high winds. To say they are only designed for static force is not true. With your eggsperiment, try it again with another egg instead of a 1kg weight. The object that fell into the WTC was also WTC, not something materially or structurally different.

    The path of least resistance for the falling mass was through the structure below.

    The path of least resistance was 80-something floors of solid steel and concrete?

    5plusn8
    Free Member

    I’m not, I want to get to resistance in a minute, will you answer my question?

    Do you accept that if the there was a floor below this system we described, then the 22 floors, lets assume the bottom 3 of them are now mobile debris, have mass and are moving at some velocity v? IE the 22 floors have not stopped, and the mass of moving material has increased by the mass equal to 1 floor?

    nedrapier
    Full Member

    Demolition of these towers sounds like a piece of piss. Take a floor out (top or bottom, doesn’t seem to matter) and it collapses into the basement, sure as eggs is eggs.

    But it can’t have been a controlled demolition because that would have taken thousands of people and weeks of preparation.

    So is it hard or is it easy? I’m confused.

    jam-bo
    Full Member

    Also, “because they are big” is a bit of a crap answer really isn’t it?

    You asked why it would take a long time with lots of people. I suggested it was because it was big. Big buildings take lots of time and lots of people to rig for demolition.

    Unless you know a quick way. Like fly a plane into it…

    5plusn8
    Free Member

    Demolition of these towers sounds like a piece of piss. Take a floor out (top or bottom, doesn’t seem to matter) and it collapses into the basement, sure as eggs is eggs.

    I agree, it could have been straightforward, in hindsight. If you asked a demoliton expert beforehand he might not have planned it that way.

    slowoldman
    Full Member

    Why would it have taken such a massive team? And so long?

    Have you seen the preparation required for demolition by controlled explosion?

    jam-bo
    Full Member

    Unless you know a quick way. Like fly a plane into it…

    In fact, maybe they designed a inherent weakness into the tower so they could easily demolish them without anyone suspecting a thing. Maybe that’s no-one noticed them being rigged for demolition.

    I could get into this conspiracy thing.

    ghostlymachine
    Free Member

    Except for most skyscrapers, or even large buildings, they have far more in common with the eggshell example that keeps cropping up.

    whitestone
    Free Member

    The path of least resistance was 80-something floors of solid steel and concrete?

    It wasn’t solid steel and concrete, it was mostly air otherwise they wouldn’t have been able to fit offices into it. It was designed as the lightest framework possible to get the most space. It wasn’t designed for a dynamic force of the mass of many floors dropping due to a failure of the supporting structure.

    The mechanism has been explained to you in several different ways. If you are unable to understand them then admit it rather than come up with ever more spurious assertions that merely show up your lack of understanding.

    nickc
    Full Member

    80-something floors of solid steel and concrete?

    No, it was 80 something floors of steel spanning structures that got thinner the higher up it went, no structural concrete at all.

    Twin towers were mostly empty space

    5plusn8
    Free Member

    Three fish, ignore them, answer my question.

    Three_Fish
    Free Member

    will you answer my question?

    I already told you, your example is not comparable. Why are you going to add resistance later? Just put it where it’s meant to be. And why not stick to an example where we can observe hypothesis (or lack of)? I’m busy, I’ve a load of work to do and, to be honest, considering pointless examples of incomplete equations is pretty much bottom of my list of priorities. If I’m missing something, you’re going to have to less obscure.

    wobbliscott
    Free Member

    5plusn8, you are completely ignoring resistance. Even if the lower part of the building were just a pile of steel and concrete, there’s going to be resistance,

    The resistance was overcome. Like a lot of things, if the system is intact it is very strong, as soon as you start removing key parts of the system it becomes very weak. Forces start acting in directions that the original design was not designed to cope with, forces and the distribution of forces are upset and parts of the structure over-stressed. After than you’re doomed and the structure can only collapse.

    Another analogy is a Karate person karate chopping breeze blocks in half. Take 4 breeze blocks and stack them on top of eachother then they have no chance of karate chopping through them. Put a half inch gap between the blocks and they cut through them with ease – you only need to break the first block and the momentum of that first break does the rest. The structure of breeze blocks with a gap between each layer is effectively what you’ve got with a building. The momentum due to the small amount of speed built up from the floor above collapsing generates forces that are orders of magnitude greater than the forces the structure was designed to cope with.

    5plusn8
    Free Member

    I already told you, your example is not comparable. Why are you going to add resistance later? Just put it where it’s meant to be. And why not stick to an example where we can observe hypothesis (or lack of)? I’m busy, I’ve a load of work to do and, to be honest, considering pointless examples of incomplete equations is pretty much bottom of my list of priorities. If I’m missing something, you’re going to have to less obscure.

    Its a model. Resistance is my next question. This is what we call a discussion. It’s a shame you want to withdraw now.
    I wanted to ask you how the resistance effects the very first failure. There is an interesting discussion to be had about that. But we need to establish a few agreed facts first.so please answer the question?

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