[Closed] Ze hav won ze war..... Really? he/she/it can do one....

Most of the stuff on here is banter 😀 You forget though, that mass movements are all essentially religious but although they may not believe in god - all of them believe in the devil. It has been like this since the dawn of time, these people would have been the angry mob during the Salem witch trials, ardent Nazis or southern American communist insurgents. In todays developed world though, they have to find evet more ridiculous causes to support violently.

I should also have the right to not care what they want to be called (with the exception of their name), if that designation is specifically designed to draw attention to attributes I am otherwise free to ignore.

eat_the_pudding: I was referring to your comment above where it seems you are saying you don't care how somebody ask to be referred to as.

Seriously, if someone goes out of their way to ask to be referred to by particular pronouns, it is probably because it is important to them. The reason why really shouldn't matter to you - it's their business. And it is common courtesy, if nothing else, to at least try to comply.

Oh - and for the record - deliberately misgendering someone, especially if they have already requested otherwise, is already covered under the Law and could well see you having a visit from the Police.

Rachel

@jimjam, I was just pointing out that not every word you can use to refer to people in the english language contains gender information. So whats weird about suggesting that a few extra should be neutral?

I disagree that:

Until human beings stop being sexually dimorphic a single pronoun will only add confusion and offense.

The point would be to remove confusion and offense.

Then the only people who get offended would be the ones who think that pronouns are magic and make them special (on both sides).

iously, if someone goes out of their way to ask to be referred to by particular pronouns, it is probably because it is important to them. The reason why really shouldn't matter to you - it's their business. And it is common courtesy, if nothing else, to at least try to comply.

Can you refer to me as god then? It's really important to me as a mentally unstable narcissist.

Tom, if that's what makes you feel better, why not?

eat_the_pudding

The point would be to remove confusion and offense.

So when I go online to shop for a pair of trousers cut for a male body type should I click the ze link or the ze link?

Then the only people who get offended would be the ones who think that pronouns are magic and make them special (on both sides).

I agree with your sentiment but it swings both ways as you point out. Pronouns are basic and perfunctory but they are necessary because males and females are different and this is true for the absolute vast majority.

@Rachel
If you read what I said, I'm against multiplying pronouns (ad infinitum) and in favour of making them neutral to get around the whole thing.

As I said to poah

I'm arguing _for_ the use a single pronoun to avoid confusion and offense, not for using current ones to offend people.

What pudding said, because our societal obsession with individuality and difference actually becoming more homogenised would amuse me.

I don't think you have thought that through Tom

eat+the+pudding: I understand that - I don't have an issue with how you think you would like the English language to develop. I do find it disappointing that you seem to think it okay to simply not accept that other people might want to be called something different and then to go along with something they feel is important to them.

These two are not mutually exclusive - it is possible that you might like something but then also accept others might have a different view. If you are a meat eater, you don't expect vegetarians to tuck into a meat pie if they come around your house, do you?

Rachel

People are very resistive to change in language. This is a bit like Ms a few years ago. Developed as a way of addressing women that did not indicate marital status ie to replace Miss and Mrs. But no - we now have a choice of Ms Mrs and Miss so Ms becomes shorthand for "feminist"

Samuel's primary school teacher is called Ms and she is married with kids.

I use Miss usually but I'm a feminist*. Am I doing it wrong???

edit - * not a TERF, obviously

I do find it disappointing that you seem to think it okay to simply not accept that other people might want to be called something different and then to go along with something they feel is important to them.

Depends what they want to be called.

poah - thats the use as intended. I address all women in writing as Ms

Ms was intended to replace both Mrs and Miss but became a 3rd way of addressing women instead

Ms was intended to replace both Mrs and Miss but became a 3rd way of addressing women instead

Do you think anyone really thought it would [i]replace[/i] the existing two options though?

[img] [/img]

🙂 I think thats the lesson from Ms - pointless in trying to create a gender neutral pronoun as all it will do is single folk out not allow them to be addressed without assumptions

I'm not just being argumentative, but I think Ms has been pretty useful - for professional situations as well as giving women the choice of whether they wish to be defined by their marital status or not.

Ms is certainly useful and I'm glad it exists. I presume, though, that if I asked you to use Miss, you wouldn't insist on continuing to use Ms, though?

Miss Rachel Lawson

On the GU sign - it probably is supposed to be "banter" but sadly they're unenlightened almost by requirement. Bigger bunch of arseholes never darkened Gilmorehill...

I would always use "Ms" to address a woman until asked not to. I don't understand why anyone would want to be called "miss" but its your choice and I respect that

Personally I refuse to use any title at all and always use my initial not my full name in official communications so as not to reveal either my gender or my marital status. sometimes online forms won't let you do this - they insist on a tile so I tick the "other" box I put "no title" or sometimes if its nothing important "Grand Poohbah"

Its quite funny getting letters to "Grand Poohbah TJ" or "No Title TJ"

You can call be by my surname until I tell you you can use my first name. Don't prefix it with a title unless its "grand Poohbah"

I always use my title but then I'm an arrogant tit lol

My boss's name is Lindsay. It regularly surprises non-Scots when they discover it's a blokes name. I guess if he was bothered much he'd always add Mr. to his title.

eat_the_pudding - Member

For clarity, it's true, I don't care and you can't make me

Ah. So after all that dancing around and trying to excuse yourself it comes back to your inalienable right to be disrespectful to other human beings. Clarity established.

Would that be a stalemate? If puddingeater's principles stopped him from using titles then why wouldn't the title wearer respect his choices

Yes northwind ..
Based on everything I've said in this thread about the importance of equality, avoiding discrimination and suggesting what I think is the best way to resolve this issue in a fair and equitable way, I shouldn't have bothered, because it can all be summed up as "I have an

inalienable right to be disrespectful to other human beings

You've seen right through me.

Congratulations.

Thats my argument destroyed by by clever discourse that is.

Put me in my place right enough.

In (deliberately) talking about how I would like the situation to be in future people seem to be making assumptions about how I would react today.

I have worked with transgender people in recent years and I use whatever pronoun they are comfortable with (admittedly they helpfully chose from a list of 2).

BUT if we are heading for 70 or 100 genders with different pronouns some of which change from day to day, (and which some suggest should be backed by legal force) then that seems like a situation asking for a simpler solution.

Making language more gender neutral seems (to me) like an easier and fairer path than making it infinitely gender plural.

Thats all.

eat_the_pudding - Member

You've seen right through me.

There doesn't really seem to be anything to see through tbh. You've clarified your position that you don't care what people want to be called. TBH you seem proud of that. You say a lot about equality and fairness and it still comes down to you not caring what the other person wants.

I'd like to say Chapeau to Rachel for the contributions (although Chapeau is a masculine word I think thats ok in this context).

eat you need to change your id to eat_ze_pudding

Tom why god with a small g whereas Tom is with a capital ? If you're going to be called God go for the full effect, or even G-d as to even write the name is disrespectful given your magnificence ?

GBTetc, Christian, Vegetarian, Feminist, French, Furry, Moderator, there's always an extreme vocal minority that give the rest a bad name.

FIFY 🙂

northwind

There doesn't really seem to be anything to see through tbh. You've clarified your position that you don't care what people want to be called. TBH you seem proud of that. You say a lot about equality and fairness and it still comes down to you not caring what the other person wants.

Whatever

tjagain - Member
I would always use "Ms" to address a woman until asked not to. I don't understand why anyone would want to be called "miss" but its your choice and I respect that

Personally I refuse to use any title at all and always use my initial not my full name in official communications so as not to reveal either my gender or my marital status. sometimes online forms won't let you do this - they insist on a tile so I tick the "other" box I put "no title" or sometimes if its nothing important "Grand Poohbah"
Its quite funny getting letters to "Grand Poohbah TJ" or "No Title TJ"

You can call be by my surname until I tell you you can use my first name. Don't prefix it with a title unless its "grand Poohbah"

Count - why wouldn't they? Some people don't like the assumptions made about their marital status or being labelled by their marital status. Use to be "master" for an unmarried male and "Mister" for a married male. Would you like that?

eat you need to change your id to eat_ze_pudding

You have won the Forum. Chapeau! (chapeaux?)

I disregard any written communication that isn't addressed to StGeorge Esq.