[Closed] Writing (or refusing) a reference

Why don't you say it wouldn't be a good one?

That should get him to leave you alone.

HR should deal with it and on a factual basis only, you don't have to fill in someone's forms, especially if your reference could cost the person the job. I can't imagine anyone has successfully claimed against a bad reference, but I wouldn't want to find out the hard way!

Thing is he was a little ****. Terrible attendance, threw a chair at me once, swore at me many times, had multiple detentions and suspensions for bad language towards other staff. He was also a horribly misogynistic towards female staff and pupils.

Just ignore it.
It will go away.

If you write good things about him, and something happens in future that goes badly, you will be in trouble for providing false reference.

Best ignore or pass it to the HR etc.

From memory it could land you in hot water if you go into detail, there are people in the medical profession whom have made a gain monetarily from a bad one. I know a family member did this against a boss (who coincidentally was a ****)

You are under no obligation to provide one , this should be inference enough that you did it won't be fantastic, you are allowed to state facts for example attended x or y on dates, in my experience the less information and delivery/ information given is enough for the receiving party to make an assessment.

There are people who change through their adolescent years and grow into remarkable people, maybe find out if they're still a tearaway and go from there.

There are people who change through their adolescent years and grow into remarkable people, maybe find out if they’re still a tearaway and go from there.

Ha, it was only 2 years ago!

If it were 5+ years I might be willing to give him the benefit of doubt.

I also heard on the grapevine that he'd been kicked out of college. So this is an attempt at a post college job I suspect.

HR won't do it so you shouldn't either; give them - HR - the facts about scrote and tell them this is why you won't provide a reference.
Might also be worth stating that they, under no circumstances, are to supply a reference in your name.

in the commercial world most large employers restrict references to confirming employment dates and for ex employees if the person resigned / made redundant / dismissed for misconduct. Where I work compmay policy stops managers giving a more detailed reference. Thing is large companies send out detailed reference requests, but are not surprised when they just get confirmation of dates back, as this tends to mirror there own rules for giving references.

If I have a postive view of the person as well as re directing the request to HR, I offer to say a few words on the phone.

Tim

Don’t get involved. Just politely decline.

^ this

What sort of job wants a reference from a school?
Just give bare facts if there is a "additional info" box just say a tour from 2 years ago is not an appropriate person to comment on a person who has had subsequent experiences.

What timf said. In industry it's typical now to just confirm start and finish of employment. F off hr who frankly should know better.

in the commercial world most large employers restrict references to confirming employment dates and for ex employees if the person resigned / made redundant / dismissed for misconduct. Where I work compmay policy stops managers giving a more detailed reference. Thing is large companies send out detailed reference requests, but are not surprised when they just get confirmation of dates back, as this tends to mirror there own rules for giving references.

This.

Reply with a rates table showing how much you'll charge for this work they're commissioning from you.

If it were 5+ years I might be willing to give him the benefit of doubt.

I also heard on the grapevine that he’d been kicked out of college. So this is an attempt at a post college job I suspect.

Well there you go then …. Answered question

My company policy is that references can only come from HR.
Years ago a colleague wrote a not hugely complimentary reference for a former colleague. She didn't get the job and there were interesting legal conversations.
Just say that you've passed on the request to HR and they'll get back to him.

Cheers for all the replies. Confirms my thinking.
I'll just kick it back to HR and say I don't want to touch it with a bargepole!
Not in my job description ☺️

When it comes to references and recommendations I’ve (almost) always stuck by “if you can’t say anything nice, don’t say anything at all”.

Only once, with a particularly rubbish intern have I replied to a request with a firm refusal to provide a reference. I hope they got the message 😉

What timf said. In industry it’s typical now to just confirm start and finish of employment. F off hr who frankly should know better.

...but its nothing to do with HR this is a reference for an ex-pupil not an ex-employee. I doubt HR even have records to prove they were a student.

I'd always ask anyone I was going to use as a reference, and ex-employees who get asked for ones from ages ago (usually for security clearance jobs) always call me to check its ok. There's sometimes a presumption if I'm their current employer. However, presumably, the school writes references for students going to college / uni etc. Senior management must have an approach for dealing with these for students where you really want to write "Glad he'll be your problem not mine. Good Luck!".

They want school info (dates, qualifications, etc.) and info on reliability, attendance, relationship with peers, relationship with managers/teachers, all given on a scale of 1-10 with notes.

Is it even legal to give out that amount of information on someone without their permission? I'd have thought that some sort of GDPR law would cover it.

This whole debate is annoying. If I was employing someone, I'd want to know if they were a scrote in a former role. I also think people should probably get some repercussion for being an ass. I've worked with people who were useless, and when I spoke informally to their previous employer, they knew. Even worse, sometimes they'll write a decent reference to get make sure people move on and become someone else's problem.

It makes you wonder what is the point of writing / requesting references.

However, I'm glad that I probably won't be held accountable for the stuff I said / did as a teenager. Like most people, I was a knob.

You can state facts plainly. X was at this school between these dates, his attendance was n %, he received m grade p-q GCSEs. If you keep it curt, they'll get the point.

"Aware of my legal obligations with regard to references I can confirm that he was employed and reported to me between XX Date and XX Date and am unable to offer further comment" is what I have always used

You can state facts plainly. X was at this school between these dates, his attendance was n %, he received m grade p-q GCSEs. If you keep it curt, they’ll get the point.

They won't get the point. Thats what 99.9999% of all references do - dates of employment etc. so there will be no inference that he's a bad 'un.

Personally I'd reply something along the lines of 'I'd rather not give a reference for xxxxxx' which will give them the point and won't leave you open to any redress for giving dodgy info.

And pass it on to HR for the official version...

" X was a pupil/student at Y school between dates A&B. I cannot comment further" should put the boot in nicely.

but its nothing to do with HR this is a reference for an ex-pupil not an ex-employee

It's explicitly to do with HR. They exist to make sure there's no blowback on the organisation.

Like others have said, confirm the dates and nothing else. An employment lawyer once advised me that a work reference should contain information that can be backed up by a paper trail of evidence. If it’s negative then it’s good practice to have all the proof available if it is challenged. They also told me there was no such thing as an off the record conversation.

However, if you are concerned that a young man who is struggling to control his emotions might get a job that could put other people at risk then I would get further advice from HR / senior management / union on how to respond to the request.

Is it even legal to give out that amount of information on someone without their permission? I’d have thought that some sort of GDPR law would cover it.

Many of the reference requests I get (but not all!) come with an explicitly signed authorisation from the candidate that they have authorised its release, I think most of the rest just ask for dates and job title. As a general rule if they've got your details rather than a generic name it might be reasonable to assume the candidate supplied your details and the processing can be done under the Legitimate Interests (of the third party) legal basis. I'm sure some organisations will be stricter about that than others.

They won’t get the point. Thats what 99.9999% of all references do – dates of employment etc. so there will be no inference that he’s a bad ‘un.

Actually, if his attendance was bad as the OP said, then that would be enough to make you pause and think. I also don't think that's what a typical "school" reference will say because most teachers want to see there pupils go on to succeed in life so they write nice stuff about them. Even in employment its nothing like 99.9999% that are pure facts - we get probably >90% factual, but still a good number with some nice words.

Personally I’d reply something along the lines of ‘I’d rather not give a reference for xxxxxx’ which will give them the point and won’t leave you open to any redress for giving dodgy info.

It doesn't really - it leaves you wondering if the candidate was mediocre but not necessarily a wrong un, the potential referee is difficult but the candidate was OK, or there is some really big issue.

It’s explicitly to do with HR. They exist to make sure there’s no blowback on the organisation.

Not in a school - HR deal with the staff not the pupils.

Some interesting points there Poly.

True about HR in a school, they're really there for staff, not pupils.

I'm going to pass it up to a deputy head, they get paid lots to deal with shite just like this 😆

I don't wish this kid (well, young adult) any particular ill. They weren't particularly pleasant, but most of us as had our issues as teens, and I'm hoping that as he matures he'll sort himself out.

On the other hand, I can't lie about his behaviour and attitude if asked, so silence is golden methinks.

I can confirm that Ethel commenced employment here in jan '20, and i will be glad to see her back.

It is my understanding that legally you cannot give a bad reference, so it's guilt by omission.

WCA has it. Reply confirming that, yes, said pupil attended your school from [date] to [date] and gained [qualifications] in the process. If it's HR's stance that their tutor is empowered to provide references then that's all you can do. Their 1 to 10 scale is bullshit, they can't dictate what you provide.

A personal reference is different, you can say what you like (so long as it's positive), but if you're representing your school / organisation in a professional reference then you need to be careful and stick to facts rather than opinion.

Could ask the ex student what they would like in their reference. What achievements etc. If they were that bad, they might leave you alone.

You have no obligation to do this. As above, 'attended x institution between y and z'.

Surely the school provided some sort of reference to the college. Can you not find that and use / adapt that.

Seems you can give a poor reference, as long as it's factual not opinion.

https://landaulaw.co.uk/faqs/can-your-employer-give-you-a-bad-reference/

I've been through this with my HR person. Wording as fact is challenging - you can't include anything that was unproven, or supportive process that saught to avoid formal disciplinary action etc. You end up wording so carefully it becomes woolly.

I would also say to op - it sounds like a young person your dealing with. And teenage/young adult years are when you learn by your mistakes imo. Stick to a simple set of facts about date they attended, courses they undertook and qualifications they were awarded.

likely that HR won't even have access to the records of the pupil to see things like dates and % of time in attendance. They are not there to there to look after the kids, thats the headmasters/teachers role. They are there to look after the interests of the council/employer and support the headmaster.

I had a summer job and there was a copy of a reference on a noticeboard. May of may not have been genuine (suspect not) but still makes me smile. "[Name] worked as [role] at [company] between [date] and [date]. To the best of our knowledge, he did not steal any company property during this period."

"Years ago a colleague wrote a not hugely complimentary reference for a former colleague. She didn’t get the job and there were interesting legal conversations."

What on earth is the point in asking for references, if there is no possibility of a poor reference, or worse a poor reference leaves the referencerrrerer open to action against them. Just makes the whole thing a waste of everyones time.

Decline to give it, explain to them why, but i woudlnt pussy foot about it. Surely they need to realise their actions have repercussions, else they'll just end up bullying themselves to the top and end up as the CEO of some shady development firm or something.