Been pondering an upgrade from an elliptical to a microlinear stylus but can it be that much better at "digging out detail?" Or is it a pile of horsehite in a rabbit hole?
Thoughts.
Your stylus (and cartridge) will probably make the most difference of anything you could upgrade as long as you have a reasonable amp and speakers already and the speakers are on stands and placed well in the room, not on the same surface as your table and your amp is also not on the same surface as the table. Your amp and speakers do not have to be expensive to be reasonable btw.
If you can afford £149 fairly easily, music means a lot to you and your records are not heavily worn I'd go for it.
No, but I don't have any records.
Even when I was into records back in the 80'/90's, £149 wasn't a particular expensive one even then.
I worked with a guy that constructed a concrete plinth in his basement, down to bedrock to sit his turntable on...
If you do, make sure you ask for a needle for your record player.
Hifi shop people like that sort of thing.
Gramophone, surely.
And then tell them you think playing Neil Young's "The Needle and the Damage Done" reminded you to get it changed.
Yes....ortofon concord
"that much better" is a bit hard to define, it will be more able to accurately track the groove, no doubt.
but how much you get out of it over say a AT95E will depend hugely on achieving the best setup of mounting tracking angle weight etc, as you probably know that cam make a huge difference.
for me and my fading hearing and the state of most of my collection it would not be worth it
Yes, and the rest. It's like prioritising decent tyres for your car. Not that I do that. Part-worns as I've spent all my money on styli 🙂
Currently running an AT VM95E with RigB.
£149 isn't much, if the decks ok.
Have an LP12 with Ittok LVII and an elderly K9, and been thinking of a new paratrace.
There's an LP12 group on FB and they have in the "files" section, a bit of a duffers guide to new styli on K9/K18 bodies. A lot cheaper than a very indifferent Adikt.
Err... the wife is sat next to me. No comment...
Er, yes....
Denon DL110 on a Rega 3.
I wouldn’t worry too much about the profile, just pick the one that sounds best to you.
Go somewhere like Wilkinsons that will demo some for you.
I took Mrs S with me and she agreed that the Denon was streets ahead of anything else at the price.
What turntable are you using?
I think they refer to it as diminishing returns
See also mugs kidding themselves
If you do, make sure you ask for a needle for your record player.
Do you get woofers and tweeters with it?
Err… the wife is sat next to me. No comment…
A man after my own heart!
I think they refer to it as diminishing returns
See also mugs kidding themselves
🙂
Go and listen to a few.
Cartridges sound massively different, depending on manufacturer and price, just like speakers and amps.
I believe my views on vinyl are well documented and I'll not be That Guy here again but I'll just say this:
How old are you and how good are your ears? You likely lost any perceivable benefits from a £150 needle over something out of a sewing box a decade or two back. Hi-Fi was always the domain of the young (and today's young no longer care).
Sorry totally crass response. Apologies.
Denon DL110
Great little cartridge! Can you still get them, I've got one I bought at least ten years ago. Think it was only about £50 from memory.
Yes - if the rest of the system is up to it.
I noticed a big difference when I upgraded from an old Audio Technica cartridge to my lovely new red Ortofon one - so from £50 to £100.
TS
You likely lost any perceivable benefits from a £150 needle over something out of a sewing box a decade or two back.
Nonsense. 🙂
The differences between good and bad HiFi is obvious, no matter how old your ears are.
Do voices and well recorded acoustic instruments sound natural?
Can you hear extended, clearly defined bass notes?
Is the frequency response flattish or is part of the spectrum artificially exaggerated?
How much detail can you hear?
If your speakers are set up correctly each instrument should occupy it's own space within the soundstage, if the producer intended it to.
Some very, very expensive stuff doesn’t do this.
It's not rocket surgery, just the audio equivalent of evaluating the picture from a TV.
The same criteria apply - balance, detail, dynamic range and a natural presentation.
Great little cartridge! Can you still get them, I’ve got one I bought at least ten years ago. Think it was only about £50 from memory.
Yep, still available.
About £200 now but still an exceptional bit of kit.
I reckon you'd be better off spending £149 on some CDs, they'd sound a lot better.
yes you are likely to notice a difference when removing an old worn AT and fitting a new unworn one especially if it is a higher end model...
CD's sometimes dont sound that great but have the advantage that playback equipment is less fussy and you can encode LF signals that are nearly impossible to cut onto vinyl even at 45rpm 12", as well as perfect stereo separation.
BillMC - that is really very funny. Cheered me up! I LOVE CDs though - they are awesome esp. spun on my CD63 KI Signature.
I'm 53 and can hear a 12 kHz sine wave.
Rusty - it's an AT LP5x with a few mod's.
Pop round if you want to listen to the Denon.
Wilkinsons, just up the road in Nelson will demo cartridges for you.
Very decent people to do business with.
Nah, obviously wasn't being serious. My son is devoted to vinyl, I find CD clearer and sharper at my ancient age and cloth ears.
I like CD's, but if you've already got hundreds of vinyl albums it makes sense to get the most out of 'em.
Actually I would if that's what I liked. I'd happily spend more than I would on a car if I had to buy a new one. Music goes straight to the soul and scores lines in your brain.
Back when I had money to spend on hifi, and had a Saturday job working in a local hifi shop, which gave me a 33% staff discount, plus access to the second-hand kit the owner’s son acquired and then upgraded, I put together a turntable which comprised a Logic DM101 deck, Zeta tonearm, and an Audio Technica AT33 moving-coil cartridge. The last bit was a bit of luck; a rep had left it for a try-out, and never came back for it.
I’ve just done a search, and they’re still available - £439.99, actually a bit of a bargain, other AT MC cartridges are available for prices well above that…
I’ve still got all the kit I bought back then, that was the early 80’s, the turntable needs the speed controller fixed, a component has gone duff, and a new belt, plus my Aiwa cassette deck would need a thoroughly good clean and service. The Denon CD player will probably still play, and the Rotel RA820 preamp and Crimson poweramps would most likely be fine. I think the turntable/arm/cartridge was about £2500 retail back then.
Just bought a pro-ject deck with an ortofon red cartrige factory fitted for £275, similar to the cheaper rega but with a better cartridge as standard and you don't need to flip the platter to switch from 33 to 45.
Replaced a Stanton 250 direct drive with a basic stylus, Started recording in via USB and rhe results werent thaat great so was advised (by sound engineer) that a £100 cartridge will make all the difference and really important if ripping to digital.
Beyond £100 The differences are subjective, cold or warm etc so it depends what you listen to. For y mostly 12" dance stuff the ortofon red is fine, best for music that goes dramatically from quiet to loud.
Nonsense. 🙂
So prove it to me.
The differences between good and bad HiFi is obvious
It is. And the once-critical importance of a decent analogue source and quality interconnects was genocidally destroyed by lossless digital about 20 years ago.
if you’ve already got hundreds of vinyl albums it makes sense to get the most out of ’em.
As I recall, my dad had a for-its-time high end turntable and cassette deck which I'm is guessing of similar vintage to many of your "hundreds" of albums. It had controls for things like "wow" and "flutter," designed to compensate for the imperfections from analogue things what spun.
Hm. I might see if I can pinch it from my mum. Or at least, fire it up and see if it still works.
So prove it to me.
Can your tell the difference if you change the sound settings on your TV?
If so, you can tell the difference between different sounding HiFi components.
And the once-critical importance of a decent analogue source and quality interconnects was genocidally destroyed by lossless digital about 20 years ago.
If you play a CD or a vinyl record, only the source of the information changes.
All the other elements in the chain impart their own signature on the sound.
And all CD players do not sound the same.
Bring one round and we can compare a couple. 🙂
I agree that lossless digital is a technically superior source to vinyl btw, so no need to bring that particular straw man up again.
Are we talking stylus or cartridge here?
Can your tell the difference if you change the sound settings on your TV?
I think I can.
But can I?
If you play a CD or a vinyl record, only the source of the information changes.
All the other elements in the chain impart their own signature on the sound.
Sure. But the less that "elements" bugger about with it of their own volition / failing and the greater control passed to the listener the better, no?
And all CD players do not sound the same.
Yeah, I'm not sure as I can square this circle at 1am, but historically I've spent hours at Richer 'auditioning' CD players and I want to agree with you.
Bring one round and we can compare a couple. 🙂
I haven't owned a dedicated CD player since mine went bang years ago.
No - but I would spend £100 's of ££ on relatively meaningless 'upgrades' for my bike....
If you can afford it and it makes you happy 🤷♂️
I’d be surprised if changing the stylus made much difference. Are you unhappy with how your records sound now? If not I’d suggest buying more records than getting a new stylus.
£149 sounds fairly cheap in the world of HiFi which seems unbounded by the laws of physics and purple prose so why not unbounded by economics too?
Some folks have suggested changing the cartridge and stylus. That will make things sound a bit different. Probably a bit pricier than £149 but it gets you into the realm of MM vs MC, OFC or silver windings, and then the possibility to consider a new pre-amp.
I ditched LPs about 25 years ago. Had a couple of OK turntables but never played the records as I had CDs which were less fuss, sounded better, and didn’t have the wow, flutter, hiss, and pop of 80s and 90s vinyl.
I just bought a rega one with the Billy basic cartridge, I did think of an upgrade at the time but had no idea whether it was worth it. Tbh even now after 3 months I think I would have to demo a better one before I spent any cash.
For active speakers I added a subwoofer, about 200 quid which really is an upgrade, depends what music you listen to though.
Isnt it one of those things that, if you put them side by side and thought about it. Compare and contrast, you could pick out some subtle but definate differences or improvements.
But once its fitted, and youre elbow deep in Cannibal Corpse, you wont actually notice it.
Technically better, and thats fine if thats your thing. But meh, in the real world.
like improving your bike to scrub a few seconds off a descent that you ride on a daily bimble. Yes, tehcnially faster, but....
I suppose the other consideration here is, are you just playing Parts Darts?
If you asked me, "should I spend [amount] on 8GB of RAM for my PC?" I'd have questions. How much is installed already? What are you using the PC to do? What does the rest of the system look like? And of course, why are you even asking the question, are you having performance issues?(*)
Without looking at the bigger picture it's an impossible question. The answer to "should I spend [amount] on 8GB of RAM for my PC?" may well be yes. But a better question is "I have [amount] to spend on a PC upgrade, what should I buy?" to which the answer could well be "install an SSD drive."
Say for the sake of argument that a new stylus will bring some degree of improvement. Is that your best spend of £150?
(* - with the PC)
The **** quality of newly released vinyl is putting me off investing anything in my vinyl setup. Bought a 7" single , barrie by frankie, from Juno the other day and it's appalling. Sounds much better on Spotify blue toothed to a roberts radio.
I think we're being mugged.
Would I spend £149 on a stylus?
No, I'd put it toward a good CD player and some spangly headphones. As a fan of logic and reason and also an engineer, I can appreciate that CDs were engineered to surpass the human ears ability to discern detail.
You can make a CD sound like it's been played through one of them there record players if you want. It also amuses me that folk now find the need to install expensive digital cables and want 'super high bit rate audio', when, because physics and biology, CD is precisely as sufficient as you need for two perfectly independent channels.
Money spent on actual speakers is a country mile better spent than money spent on the electronics. Also, because room acoustics, headphones can be even better than either.
I find it quite hard to play records on a CD player though. They're too big to fit on the platter.
As a fan of logic and reason, like.
And because of room acoustics...
A few months ago I bought a big Yamaha streaming amplifier (r-n803d) which is an improvement on the little Yamaha streaming amplifier I had before. It's very good but I felt it was showing up the shortcomings of the Mordaunt Short speakers, which I'm reluctant to change until we move house and have enough room for some good floorstanders.
At the weekend, with a bit of time on my hands, I decided to take a look at the microphone that came with it which is supposed to set up the profile to match the acoustics of the room.
Flipping heck! It really works! Gone are my reservations about the speakers and the streaming quality. As long as I can resist fiddling with the bass and treble knobs the sound is brilliant.
I find it quite hard to play records on a CD player though. They’re too big to fit on the platter.
As a fan of logic and reason, like.
ho, ho, ho
If you can afford £149 fairly easily, music means a lot to you and your records are not heavily worn I’d go for it.
I would agree with this. I do have to admit spending £47 on a cartridge in 1982 for my Rega Planar 3 which according to an inflation calculator is roughly £170 today so perhaps I am not the most objective person to ask. At the time, when I had a much smaller disposable income than I do now, I felt was worth it
