Eleven folk shown in Marks update. I don’t know if that’s what you were expecting.
It is far too many. It should be possible to run with 3 people.
11 wages must be £400k+ a year with NI, Employers Liability, office space etc. That is big money before selling a copy of the magazine. This thread has shown the magazine is nearly dead. Few people are screaming to keep it, but are happy to pay for it still, and not even look at it.
I see little choice but to shut the magazine and go online only. Another option is to make redundancies, and let 2 or 3 people do all the work involved. Even then, it'd be £100k in wages, its a big sum for a dying market.
Not a direct example, but similar, the local CAMRA magazine is every month, colour, A5, has a lot of ads, has listings of events, and reports of previous events. It's free. And run by one person in his spare time. Of course, no forum or website to run, even so, he does a decent magazine on his own.
I would miss the quality of arguing on here. Sometimes it’s just the usual but often people are carefully trying to have a difficult discussions using the most impossible mediums to do that on. I have had my eyes opened on a few topics
Nicely put.
Not in the slightest. I generally only come on for the same reason as I read Mumsnet aibu, to lol at people so different from me it's like they are from another planet.
The bile in some of the threads around Tories, trump, Brexit, COVID etc are enough to prevent new people joining.
Stw seems to cater specifically to lefty northern road cyclists, a pretty small market I would suggest.
There is a reason it's known as Same Ten ****
I’m in a slightly different boat to most of the others who have posted here.
I’m pretty new on here but was aware of this forum and mag for years before I really started reading it but I don’t post much as I find it a bit intimidating for some reason. I like it a lot and have started reading it every day, so I subscribed to the digital option a couple of months ago for the first time. If I’m honest, the free version with the adverts was absolutely intolerable with the way it loaded and reloaded and lost drafted posts. I think a lot of potential members are lost at that point. I decided to abandon trying STW then came back and stuck with it after opting to try the paid model.
I’ve not read the mag as I was expecting my first issue to arrive via email and I don’t think it has. I’m not sure how it works though. I have read one or two articles and enjoyed them.
Unfortunately this is the way it’s going for loads of places like this. Mags, papers and forums. I can’t stand FB groups, they are in no way comparable to forums for me. They’re just nowhere near as usable and organised. As things tighten up for everyone this winter though, I fear we will lose more small outfits like this. I’m glad that I subscribed but if things keep going as they are, it’s all the wee extra costs like this that will have to be cut by people.
Andy
Some great posts here, and dare I say it a consensus (on STW? Are you sure…)? That by and large people value this place and would definitely miss it if it were gone.
The most interesting thing I’ve taken from this and the other forum thread about the current state of the magazine is that there seems to be a majority of people who simply aren’t interested in the magazine. Surely this is a massive problem for a company who’s business model is based around running a magazine and who keep saying that they’d never go to an online only model?
Other magazines do MTB magazines better than STW, in my opinion. Cranked is better quality but a bit dearer and Privateer was the same a few years back.
I look at the forum most days (chat rather than bike as bike not really relevant to my riding).
Only came to the forum as used to buy the magazine when buying magazines was a thing and single speeding was also still a thing and covered well in the magazine (so a long time ago).
I like the political awareness shown in the threads which is seldom seen on other forums.
I don't pay for it because although I would miss it I will live without it and could arguably be in a better position as a few less people to annoy me each day.
As some have said, it's like a local bar where you get a broad mix of people, there's an expert on pretty much everything you need to know, some take on big projects or adventures and we can live vicariously through them, many will help each other out if needed, they will welcome strangers (the stranger the better?) but quickly turn on a bad apple, and over in the corner there's the small loud group who are always, ALWAYS arguing about politics and why their view of the world is best. I've helped out before and will do again, because otherwise how would I fill my time at work?
Oh and yes I read the mag, usually on the bog, and sometimes I get a cold bum (cf. Bob Hoskins)
I think as a digital only subscription you can access all copies of the mag in the drop down menu, I don't know that you get an emailed copy but you should get an email saying the mag has been published and so should be available for you to download.
I have a print subscription so I'm not certain how digital only works.
I have access to Digital.. but i'd guess i've read maybe 1 in the last year... It's just simply of no interest to me, i like the chat, the knowledge, the banter. The only reason i pay for digital is because there isn't a 'forum only' subscription. If there was, i'd pay for that instead.
I understand though that the magazine is a business, a job, career for many people... so i accept it.. But it holds 0 interest to me.
Yep I'd miss the forum but the mag is dull. Not really sure why it needs a paper copy at all, would be more environmentally friendly as digital only.
Maybe a good idea would be to reduce the number of paper issues, and do most issues digital only.
Definitely, I subscribe to the mag because I love the content, the forum is so informative and it’s just not possible to do these things for free so if I can support I’m happy to.
Re going online only (Reducing print runs doesnt work too well as the unit cost goes through the roof.)
You wouldn't save on staff bills. Still needs writing designing photographing ads sold and money chased from advertisers who would be paying a lot less.
Still need premises unless 90% work from home.
@dc1988 Thanks - I will go and have a proper look.
I’m in exactly the same boat as @weeksy to be honest. I paid to get rid of the ads and support the forum rather than bought the mag with a free website to go with it. We are both members on another forum that somehow is still free but the mag that spawned it has long gone now. It seems to get by on goodwill and the odd T shirt purchase but it’s not the owner’s paying job, it’s very much a volunteer sideline.
Andy
As others have said, this is an invaluable resource, and has been of incredible help for some people, so for the humanity and content in that regard yes I’d miss it and pray it remains available. I’m having a shed clear out of various bike parts in September and will happily donate the proceeds to help STW stay available for those reasons.
However, I don’t value “wearing the t shirt”, to broadcast my membership. I’d do it to raise charitable awareness but that’s it, it’s not a club I’m proud of. It can also be a pretty sad place for me personally at times with continued historic victimisations and contradictions (of which I’m by far not the first or most affected) which is no doubt part of my own sensitivity as well. This does make me regret or rethink my participation at times a fair bit, for which a break from here enforced or not may be helpful, but I wouldn’t ask for that on the basis of peoples livelihood’s.
Ban all the free members 🙂
They contribute nothing.
I'd quite like a £12/year tier of "ad free forum sponger" or similar. I don't read the magazine (road biker) but do find the forum extremely valuable.
Don’t confuse forumites with magazine subscribers. There’s a venn diagram of stw forum users/ stw magazine readers
Not all forum users are readers, not all readers are forum users, not all subscribers read the magazine.
To make a decision on the magazine based on the responses of forum posts would be bonkers.
All this talk of inflation had me checking out the savings of going digital only, once I realised it would only save me £20 I decided the mag is definitely worth £20 (I would never read the digital version).
When I flick through the mag I am almost always uninspired but when I actually read it I still always enjoy it. I just think that the way we use our spare time means that the forum, you tube or in my case podcasts take my attention first. Sometimes the mags are 6 months old before I find a moment to read them.
I don't often comment on the forum, as like social media, its not good for my headspace but I do find it very useful, the way the big topics in the world, are filtered through others opposing opinions. Much better than me reading a single opinion piece. And I appreciate the way that and BS is called out.
And as others have said, when I need an answer, all I have to do is ask.
The quality of posting on here, even on the political threads, is far above most forums.
It's also a really good news aggregator, and saves me having to actually go on Twitter.
I don't read the articles - just not that deep into ST/MTB - but I'm very disappointed that there is no mention in the piece about the possible revenue to be gained via classifieds, or even any plans for it. Who cares about the look ? Why burn money on that ? has any single user asked for that ? I want functionality. Look at reddit - one of the biggest websites on the net, and it looks terrible - but it does great things.
I would certainly pay money to place ads or buy from people on here - rather than ebay. At least this is a self policing community of sorts, whereas ebay is the wild west. Leverage your user base. I would have some confidence that a bike bought on here was not stolen, if I could identify the poster and they have some history.
The classifieds on here are a joke, really, totally unusable and no attempt to accept that and remove them until they work (imho). Which is a shame, because buying or selling from/to someone who is known to the community or just posts on the forum occasionally is a massive boon to the process.
The forum goes through waves of working/not working/pop up hell. At the moment (on macos at least) it is fine.
Every time I see a get-rid-of-the-free-users I despair - does no-one go to business school ? these are the people you want to attract - give them a taste of the good stuff, but don't cut them out. Give them a try out function for a week, sell the benefits of membership, let me see them, but don't build walls.
ymmv
I don't post on the forum very often but visit several times daily and would definitely miss it, it's the closest I come to using any sort of social media. As for the mag, I've moved to paperless in almost every other aspect of life that I can and would only choose digital but still only read it infrequently, despite starting off hobby cycling in mtb it's the discipline that i do the least these days and it's just not that relevant to me now. I'd love to see greater diversity of cycling disciplines within the mag, that I'd definitely read more of.
I have been a member for 9 years and 11 months and 7 days. I came here after the Boards Windsurfing forum and magazine started creaking and eventually ran out of puff in 2013. I have the digital sub as a substitute for a forum subscription and started this after the Covid plea. I would occasionally read the Magazine, but seem to have got out of the habit of reading any magazines.
TLDR - I would miss the forum
Yes I'd certainly miss it. Made many friends from here over the years.
I would miss it, its where I go to first for help and info, then Google! 🙂
I look at this site A LOT, but have always seen it as a bonus addition to the magazine. Even when we were all logging on to the Gofar message board, I seem to recall that most of the chat was about the upcoming magazine.
I used to post on here a lot as well, but I'm yet another one who has become more and more intimidated by some of the truly toxic posters. Still enjoy reading their childish arguments mind you, but would never get involved. I still see this site as a supplement to the magazine, it's a brilliant thing full of great advice, great people and just enough Richard's to give the rest of us a laugh, but for me I think I would miss the magazine more.
I vividly recall the excitement when the quarterly Singletrack magazine popped through my door. Admittedly, I kind of lost a bit of interest in it when it started coming out monthly, but that rallied when it went to bi-monthly a few years ago. As I'm getting older and more things on me are starting to fail than on my bike, the magazine's adventure and mountain bike lifestyle articles let me escape my dodgy health issues and live the dream through others with better bits on them.
Long live the magazine, but keep the forum going as well, if you can please.
Beagy
Started subscribing to the mag from the around the second or third issue but dropped down to digital only a couple of months back.
I just wasn't reading it and it was going un opened for weeks when it arrived so seemed like a complete waste of resources and money.
Don't post that often now as it can often be the same old folks spouting the same old shite and it's not worth the bother.
I'd miss the helpful advice I've been given over the year though.
It seems it doesn't matter what the subject is someone will have an answer.
I've also met some great people from here over the years and would like the opportunity for that to carry on.
When I flick through the mag I am almost always uninspired but when I actually read it I still always enjoy it. I just think that the way we use our spare time means that the forum, you tube or in my case podcasts take my attention first. Sometimes the mags are 6 months old before I find a moment to read them.
Good point. I think the problem is with us, the reader, and a sad enditment on both the default modern way of living and what that has done to our concentration levels.
If you are a page flicker type reader, looking at pretty pictures and stopping to read words when they jump out at you, the mag is not for you. So much of modern 'reading' is done in micro snippets, often as a secondary activity to watching TV or supposedly having a conversation. Properly investing time to read a long article or a whole magazine front to back as your main activity of the moment is a dying skill. Singletrack is mostly written to be consumed as a proper piece of prose. The longer pieces about adventures in far flung places could be inspiring you to do the same but its effectively an adventure story. I see potential readers being turned off because their attention span is only a hundred or so words long and really just want a ride guide to somewhere achievable on a weekend.
I admire and applaud what much of the magazine has become - I just worry (for society at large and the magazine owners specifically) that the number of people both capable of accessing what it offers and wanting that style of material is dwindling.
I admire and applaud what much of the magazine has become – I just worry (for society at large and the magazine owners specifically) that the number of people both capable of accessing what it offers and wanting that style of material is dwindling
But surely that's the case with any society/demographic and you have to bend, change and mould yourself and your wares as time moves on... Or you flounder and fold instead.
Many many companies have grasped that paper magazines are not the way forward, not the future and are a little bit 'old' maybe it's time for STW to get this too and move away from paper into purely digital.
Ban all the free members 🙂
They contribute nothing.
I contribute by providing revenue through all the ads I have on my screen surely?
Just signed up for digital, I have never really given it much thought about subscribing, but it would be a great loss if STW disappeared !
The quality of posting on here, even on the political threads, is far above most forums.
It’s also a really good news aggregator, and saves me having to actually go on Twitter.
Nicely put - sums it up for me too. STW is my go-to if I'm looking for an overview of current news stories without trawling multiple news sites. Valuable to have differing points of views that certainly make me reconsider my own.
Re the forum, I think I remember spending hours on the original forum in the computer lab at uni when I was supposed to be writing my dissertation. That must've been 2001, right? If so, I've 'known' STW for nearly half my life, and equally as long as Mrs a11y. I'd miss both if I lost either.
So...
"Would you miss STW if we lost it?"
I would only miss this forum/website.
Its useful by gaining information and also adding.
Happly donate for hosting costs. If I had the skills I would suggest moving it on to a real forum host.
Hand over the forum keys so to speak, the forum at the moment is the most valuble thing to STW.
Full Member / Free Member tags are devisive IMO. All users are valuable you ask us to join by signing up in the first place.
Perhaps a paywall could be consider....take a look at your members only area. All of STW will look like that in time. 🙁
It seems people/users like me are not wanted. So time to log off :-(.
Goodluck STW.
Might even go and ride my bike 😉
PS Perhaps STW could do a Dirt Shed Show type affair. #gmtb #gcn
or copy the https://www.emtbforums.com/ forum.
For all I know you might be dressed in STW branded clothes, drinking STW coffee from a branded mug.
I've got a STW branded sweatshirt (it's got paint on it), don't drink deadline all that often as it's v strong, but my wife likes it. The branding eventually washed off my STW mug. 😒
For everything this site gives me, giving a wee bit back occasionally seems like the least I could do.
I’d miss it but I’m sure I’d get over it. As someone at the lower end of the earning scale I’m starting to feel the pinch (my mortgage has nearly doubled this year) and I had let my digital sub lapse. I only re-subbed because the forum became unusable on Safari on iPhone due to horrendously intrusive ads that prevented me from even closing them. As a marketing tactic it worked perfectly.
It does surprise me that with so many developers the forum is so unstable when a single person can build a reliable forum using easily available templates.
As others have said I would miss the forum more than the actual magazine. Im not that keen on the current change in direction the magazine is going. From my perspective it seems to be less and less about mountain biking and more about gravel riding and cookery which arent my thing in a mountain bike magazine.
But surely that’s the case with any society/demographic and you have to bend, change and mould yourself and your wares as time moves on… Or you flounder and fold instead.
Many many companies have grasped that paper magazines are not the way forward, not the future and are a little bit ‘old’ maybe it’s time for STW to get this too and move away from paper into purely digital.
That sounds like advocacy for a race to the bottom mindset. I guess it depends on your priorities - if making money is your main driver Mark should have sent Chipps on dancing lessons years ago and made him some kind of middle-aged twerking phenomenon! But fortunately for the world they don't seem to want to take that path. And I'd say they have moved with the times - defend and promote proper (I'm going to come over as a snob here - shoot me) educated content by moneyising middle-aged men bickering on the internet to subsidise it. Sure, it's a niche living; but one I hope they can continue to make viable without changing it too much.
I don’t want to live in that world. I want to live in a world where people appreciate the value of a couple of quid a month to support something that’s really worth supporting, which can be totally life affirming
If this goes, you’ll miss it
Treasure the true value in things and support the people who’ve enabled this. We owe them a hell of a lot
They made a lot of things possible
Stop fannying around and get a bloody subscription!
This shit is actually important!
You’ll miss it when it’s gone and all that’s left is the cesspit of Twitter
avdave2, your first recruit Sargent Major Binners reporting for duty
Would I miss STW?
Yes, yes I would. Not only do I spend an inordinate amount of time on here but this forum has helped me so much. I have asked questions from solar to depression. From fixing brakes to understanding others opinions. Its been a real eye opener. Ive had the opportunity to see peoples opinions put across that are obviously far far cleverer than myself and the best thing is ive had these explained to me. Its really been an overall positive experience over many years. I would really miss it and the people.
But just putting my 2penneth out there
The thing is I really dislike these sort of posts that mark has put up. I don’t want to loose STW as much as the next person. However I do feel that tagged onto every other post is almost a begging letter. Its not a “look how great we are” but more of a “your going to loose this if you don’t pay” maybe in overly sensitive to these sorts of things?
I do feel like theres a significant number of people that frequent here that I would class as “high flyers” or just generally successful people that operate in a different realm to myself. These people are able to donate. But I feel like these sort of posts from STW are replying on people like these to pull them away from the brink of closure. This makes me worried about the future as im now basically thinking you’ve had a golden opportunity and you’ve not managed it / adapted / whatever to keep it going. We shouldn’t need begging letters, should we?
I really don’t want to loose it but I do feel like theres something fundamentally wrong if were having to us the stick rather than the carrot to keep going?
Funnily enough i have just subscribed so yes I guess i would!
But just putting my 2penneth out there
The thing is I really dislike these sort of posts that mark has put up. I don’t want to loose STW as much as the next person. However I do feel that tagged onto every other post is almost a begging letter. Its not a “look how great we are” but more of a “your going to loose this if you don’t pay” maybe in overly sensitive to these sorts of things?
IT's tough for MArk/STW though as i know full well.
As some of you may have seen, i own and run https://revtothelimit.co.uk/index.php
It's motorbike related and free from Ads... but it 100% relies upon donations from members to keep it running. Well, either that or my own funding of it. Sure it's not on the size of this place, but it takes costs, upkeep, hosting, support, updates etc... Not only time but actual expense too. I have put up several posts in the past 2-3 years saying "get your wallets out" and people do... but not all... which seems a little unfair to me. I've got about 50% of people who pay a yearly subscription of the userbase.. but 50% pay.... nothing.
t’s motorbike related and free from Ads… but it 100% relies upon donations from members to keep it running. Well, either that or my own funding of it. Sure it’s not on the size of this place, but it takes costs, upkeep, hosting, support, updates etc… Not only time but actual expense too. I have put up several posts in the past 2-3 years saying “get your wallets out” and people do… but not all… which seems a little unfair to me. I’ve got about 50% of people who pay a yearly subscription of the userbase.. but 50% pay…. nothing.
So it needs something else to support it?
youve opened it up to be free so you get visitors. You need the free members for content (your not creating something i presume?) so wheres the money coming from?
I’d quite like a £12/year tier of “ad free forum sponger”
Isn't that the digital sub?
So it needs something else to support it?
youve opened it up to be free so you get visitors. You need the free members for content (your not creating something i presume?) so wheres the money coming from?
That's kinda the rub with forums... you need it 'open' and free to get members... but someone somewhere has to foot the costs... i'm very fortunate that my members see this and do so.
I do feel like theres a significant number of people that frequent here that I would class as “high flyers” or just generally successful people that operate in a different realm to myself
I see this too, but I’m the sole earner in a household with two young kids. Starting to see the seams split with all the price rises going on an just renewed the mortgage. That’s seen another significant dent in the wallet.
Given all that, I still subscribe here because (and this is sad) I’d be lost without this place. It’s a couple of quid a month, that’s it. I would’ve had to pay a small fortune for some of the advice I’ve received for free on here over the years.
>>>Reports Weeksy's biker clickbait<<< 😜🙃🤣
