[Closed] Would you buy a Diesel?

For a little runabout, no. We've just binned the wife's diesel for a little petrol. I'm guessing residuals on diesels will be dropping hence the cheaper forecourt price

no, but only because of the expensive problems rather than the polution.

no, but only because of the expensive problems

yes. just have.

Yes. Because I'd like that the DIS would read 700 miles in the tank (diesel) rather than 450 (petrol) after I'd filled up.

no, but only because of the expensive problems rather than the polution.

+1

No. They're polluting, cost more and the fuel economy saving is trivial for my low mileage.

Yes, did, would do again- but I basically do no city centre driving so that makes a big difference.

weeksy - Member

no, but only because of the expensive problems rather than the polution.

Way I always see it is I've saved more on insurance and tax than I've spent on injectors and a turbo. Not sure I'd be so keen to get a newer one but there's all sorts of reasons for that.

no, but only because of the expensive problems rather than the polution

But what about the fluffy kittens and butterflies?!

Yes.

Nothings really changed about them, VW lies aside, they still produce the same emissions they did 2 years ago, they still produce less Co2 than Petrol’s, Co2 is a greater contributor to greenhouse gasses than Nitrogen.
Taxation has changed slightly, but only in regards to BIK.
There is talk of banning certain diesels from some cities, but this is limited to older Cars, around 10 years old now.
If you’re driving mostly out of town they’ll use less fuel than petrol cars like-for-like, but if it’s a financial consideration you have to factor in the extra cost of the fuel.
They are more complex than a standard fuel injected petrol car, but no more complex than the most recent forced induction petrol cars with many gismos and do-dahs to make them more efficient and less polluting. 5 years from now people will be moaning about big bills on petrol cars.
They still don’t cope well with short-journeys, low-speed stop-start traffic isn’t the diesel killer some would like you to think – London Taxi’s have been diesel powered for decades and regularly clock up mega mileages, but really if you want the big MPG figures and trouble free life, they’re best at a constant speed, ideally over 40mph.

Maybe it’s the tin-hat talking, but most of the official diesel moaning has come from Boris Johnson, Brexit Boris, who presumably knows that the UK over-produces petrol and exports it, whereas we under-produce diesel and import it, perhaps he can’t be trusted.

I've saved more on insurance and tax

No because I hate the way they drive.

The fact that there are other reasons to avoid them is grist to the mill, but mainly its because i don't like how they drive

Nothings really changed about them, VW lies aside, they still produce the same emissions they did 2 years ago, they still produce less Co2 than Petrol’s, Co2 is a greater contributor to greenhouse gasses than Nitrogen.

The issue regarding NOx has nothing to do with global warming: it is a pollutant which is damaging people's health.

The ones we are looking at are both pre registered Sept 16 and Oct 16. Wife does about 8000 miles a year to and from work.

I am edging towards the diesel.

depends. for £2k then yes. bangernomics and can be got ride of for little cost. Certainly wouldn't entertain spending £5k+

I'm also southampton based and the city will be congestion charging/ banning diesels in the next few years. where you live may come into this.

No because I hate the way they drive.

Exactly. I would never buy one, irrespective of any environmental issues.

Nope, I didn't when I replace my car last year.

A friend is a traffic pollution researcher and lecturer so I had a heads up at how bad it was starting to look with new evidence on NOx emissions.

We got over the loss of 4 Star pretty quick, time to phase out the diesel now, earlier it starts the less painful to the wallet it will be.

A friend is a traffic pollution researcher and lecturer so I had a heads up at how bad it was starting to look with new evidence on NOx emissions.

Ditto - the evidence I've been shown is compelling.

Having made a decision last Summer to use our petrol/diesel vehicles less. My wife, kids and I set out to walk and cycle more. When you walk / cycle day after day you realise just how poor the air quality, particularly at peak times.

You're left wondering how much longer can this go on? A few people driving less isn't going to make a significant change. We're all poisoning ourselves and doing sweet FA about it. A frightening and quite depressing situation.

Getting to the point, would I buy a diesel car? No, I'd prefer not to buy any type of car. I'd much prefer to see massive investment in cycle lanes and public transport.

Yes, I'll get another.

It will have to be the latest Euro compliant whatsit though.

She would love to walk or cycle, but a 17 mile each way commute and a 6.30am start make both out of the question.

We both walk and cycle as much as we can, and try to care about the environment - which is what prompted the question.

No because you need the Cooper S

I did but I had to avoid, I do long drives or virtually nothing and at times the car can sit idle for 3 months so I went petrol last time round.

I've hd diesel vans forever and several diesel cars. These extra costs people go on about have never seemed to affect me. Had a mazda 6 for 4 years now so it's 7 years old and it's ran as sweet as a nut since day one.

No, never. But I hate the way they drive/produce their power

No, I own two now but expect the residuals to nosedive I can live with with these cars but wouldnt want to have a load of money in one.

If your doing pcp etc it may be different as the vehicle owner takes the risk.

We've just bought a diesel S-max. Would rather have had petrol, but was worried that a 1.5 would struggle in a car that size and the 2.0 petrol was only available in the top of the range spec that cost about £6k more than ours.

Yes.... Wouldn't fancy having a petrol van. I know there was a V6 T5, but I think you'd get bored of ripping away from the lights the second time you go to fill up.

it’s a financial consideration you have to factor in the extra cost of the fuel

The UK is the only place I know where diesel is on a par with petrol.

I did because I need a big 7 seat 4x4, if I could afford to swap I'd go for the equivalent but hybrid. In fact I probably will when the prices come down a bit.

Get the petrol, it will drive so much better.

What is it people hate so much about the way Diesels drive? There are things about my car I'm not too keen on but I love the way the engine delivers power.

They're polluting

They pollute more in some things and less in others. People seem to really be struggling with this fact. Everyone seems to saying 'well I thought diesels were greener!' without understanding this.

Accelerate, chug chug, turbo kicks in, boom red line at 5k, change gear, accelerate-chug, turbo lag.

They also sound totally gash.

But I come from a background of riding motorbikes with screaming, high rev motors.

I just think they hit the limiter too quickly

I think it's a case of 'what you're used to'.

To a petrol driver, diesels don't rev, they spend all the time right at the top going nowhere fast using loads of fuel and complain they don't work.

To a Diesel driver petrols are gutless and harsh, you've got to rev the knackers off them to get them to work and if you put your foot down in gear nothing happens, you need to change down a gear or two to get back in the rev range.

It's all done by ear too, because who drives around staring at the clocks, you'll just crash.

Some of the new turbo patrols are a bit 'best of both' they've got mid-range and they can still rev.

alpin - Member

The UK is the only place I know where diesel is on a par with petrol.

It should be more expensive, it's more complex to refine into its current ultra-low-sulphur guise than petrol and thus takes up more refining capacity. It's also more expensive to transport as it's more dense, thus some tankers aren't full when moving.

Fuel, like food, should be sold by weight, not volume.

NJA

Given the current furore about Diesel cars and how polluting they are would you buy one?

My wife is currently looking at two Minis - same colour, same mileage, same age, same model Cooper with Chilli pack etc. One is a 1.5 petrol the other is a diesel.

Drive them back to back. That's what we did and after driving the petrol, the diesel felt awful (despite being a newer car with similar bhp and loads more torque).

johnners

What is it people hate so much about the way Diesels drive? There are things about my car I'm not too keen on but I love the way the engine delivers power.

All torque no action aren't they. As someone just before me said it depends what you're used to. Like for like, a diesel will feel torquey but no upper range, nose heavy and plodding to drive. Or a NA petrol will feel weak low down and require revving to get it to go anywhere.

A lot of people like to compare 1.9 or 2.0 turbo charged diesels with 1.6 or 2.0 non turbo petrols. I don't often hear people complaing that a 2.0 turbo charged petrol is lacking in torque.

Modern small turbo petrol engines really bridge the gap in terms of torque though. Imo they represent the best of both worlds.

Regarding the way they drive....
I have owned a wide range of cars. Two stand out for this particular comparison, both had very similar power/weight ratios at about 150 hp/tonne.
one petrol 1600 in line 4 with an 8500rpm redline, sounded fantastic between 6500-8500 rpm but wouldn't pull the skin of a rice pudding below 2000 rpm. Gearing meant it was turning at 4000rpm at motorway speeds
The other a V6 diesel with huge torque between 1400 and 4000rpm , it also sounded great when wound up.
The latter was so much more relaxing for 95% of the time, and frequently surprised so called sports cars with it's pickup from a rolling start. Especially in the wet ( 4wd)
I prefer the diesel, but will probably get a petrol next as the economics are against them now for the mileage I do and modern turbo petrols are driving more like diesels

Petrol, why ruin a fun car with a hateful inflexible engine.

Bigdugsbaws, try an Audi 3.0 Tdi BiTurbo. I think you might be surprised at its flexibility and refinement.

All torque no action aren't they

No, not at all. Torque IS action, and in my car max power is 4,200 rpm so it keeps pulling to the red line.

why ruin a fun car with a hateful inflexible engine

See above.

I have no problem with the way they drive - it's been a long time since I have had a petrol car. If I were replacing mine right now though (company van) I would be having very, very serious thoughts about moving away from diesel.

As it stands I have a bit more than 18 months left on this one before change over so I will be watching the changes to the tax regime carefully, and keeping an eye on developments in alternatives. I am very conscious and uncomfortable about driving a diesel due to it's impact on the environment and health of those breathing in my fumes.

I do and modern turbo petrols are driving more like diesels

Yeah, but they won't do this.

sounded fantastic between 6500-8500 rpm

I think lazy, well tuned, NA V8s and I6s are pretty much perfect. Even my 12 year old e46 will return 26-28mpg on my 15 mile commute in the winter, 30 in the summer and 33-39 on a run. Pretty much bang on for the manufacturer figures and nothing to go wrong...well, a coil pack in 85k miles.

You may want to look closely at the recent budget. I believe there was something hidden in there that indirectly affects diesels. I was skim reading a news report and didn't pay close attention hence the lack of detail. I'm due to go to the theatre so research will happen a little later.

I don't deny that modern diesels are refined, but we are talking about a small car and the petrol engine would be my choice every day of the week.

If I wanted a big motorway cruiser and not a car to be driven for fun, my choice would be diesel.

jimw

Bigdugsbaws, try an Audi 3.0 Tdi BiTurbo. I think you might be surprised at its flexibility and refinement.

Yeah that seems like a fair comparison for a 1.5ltr 3cylinder petrol. A £50,000 3.0 twin turbo. How about comparing the Mini Cooper [i]D[/i] with a 3.0 twin turbo petrol? Maybe the BMW M3 with 425 bhp and 410lbs ft of torque?

molgrips

All torque no action aren't they

No, not at all. Torque IS action, and in my car max power is 4,200 rpm so it keeps pulling to the red line.

Obvious troll is......

I can only assume that those who don't like how diesels drive have only driven crap manual diesels.

We've two diesels, a 190bhp Freelander 2 and a 315bhp 435d xDrive. Both auto.

The Freelander 2 replaced an old-style Freelander, it's almost twice the power yet uses the same amount of fuel, and been a high-spec its a very nice place to be.

Words can't describe how good the 435d is, and I've previously had lots of big-engine petrol cars including a 535i (V8), incredible performance (40-80 acceleration is stunning, perfect for the single carriageway A roads where I live) and averaging nearly 40mpg over it's lifetime.

b r - Member

I can only assume that those who don't like how diesels drive have only driven crap manual diesels.

Words can't describe how good the 435d is, and I've previously had lots of big-engine petrol cars including a 535i (V8), incredible performance (40-80 acceleration is stunning, perfect for the single carriageway A roads where I live) and averaging nearly 40mpg over it's lifetime.

So are you also suggesting that a near £50,000 3.0 6 cylinder twin turbo car is good? Are there any similar 3.0 6 cylinder twin turbo petrol cars costing about £50,000 you can compare it to? How does it compare?

I would assume the diesel gives better fuel economy? Is that really a major concern if you are running a 50k coupe?

one petrol 1600 in line 4 with an 8500rpm redline, sounded fantastic between 6500-8500 rpm but wouldn't pull the skin of a rice pudding below 2000 rpm. Gearing meant it was turning at 4000rpm at motorway speeds

That sounds awful to me, and there I think we have it. I very seldom see any need to go near the red line, I'm quite content to chug along with the revs as low as will get the job done. I can't summon up the antipathy towards a particular fuel some of you manage and I'm perfectly happy driving a petrol engined car but my Diesel suits me.

I would assume the diesel gives better fuel economy? Is that really a major concern if you are running a 50k coupe?

I don't have a a £50k coupe (or anywhere near it) but I do know I'm happier standing on a garage forecourt every 650 miles than every 500 and it's not just the money.

A lot of strong opinions on petrol and diesels depending on personal experience. But regarding the OP and the commuting distance, a diesel will just be getting up to operating temp when she gets to work. So economy won't be as high as manufacturer stats, esp if town or city driving. If all open country roads or motorway then the diesel may be a practical option.

[I]So are you also suggesting that a near £50,000 3.0 6 cylinder twin turbo car is good? Are there any similar 3.0 6 cylinder twin turbo petrol cars costing about £50,000 you can compare it to? How does it compare?

I would assume the diesel gives better fuel economy? Is that really a major concern if you are running a 50k coupe?
[/I]

As said previously I'd had large petrol engine cars, most did 22-25mpg so works out at a saving of over £100 per month. Yes we could've bought a cheaper car and saved more, but we didn't, so like-for-like saving Of £1200-1300 per annum.

And tbh with the exception of when the engine starts due to the auto stop/start you've no idea it's a diesel. And when accelerating, again no idea it's a diesel, just sounds like a large capacity powerful engine.

Whereas the Landie we have, is definitely a diesel 🙂

Petrol all day long in a Mini Cooper. We have a 59 plate Cooper with the 1600 NA 4 pot in it. Think it's 120 bhp or thereabouts. Cracking little motor. Petrol is much more refined in a little car, more finesse to it and they don't sound like a tractor. Nothing worse than a diesel motor being thrashed - bloke round the back of mine red lines his derv Audi most mornings and it's a nasty harsh sound.

Each to their own though. I've never owned a diesel, never plan to. I test drove a 335d xdrive F what's it and thought it was dull as dishwater.. mental fast but ultimately dull. I quite happily jumped back into my old 325i at the time knowing the diesel wasn't for me.

She's got an Aygo at the moment, 1 litre petrol, completely gutless. So either car will be good by comparison. Driving both on Saturday, so will make a decision based on the test drive. I haven't been completely put off the diesel by the debate.

b r

As said previously I'd had large petrol engine cars,

A 20 year old non turbo'd petrol engine in a bigger heavier body isn't really a valid comparison is it?

most did 22-25mpg so works out at a saving of over £100 per month.

Wouldn't the M4 depreciate less and therefor negate the fuel costs over a year?

And tbh with the exception of when the engine starts due to the auto stop/start you've no idea it's a diesel. And when accelerating, again no idea it's a diesel, just sounds like a large capacity powerful engine.

That's fine and I'm sure it's a great car but when we discuss general petrol vs general diesel engine characteristics let's discuss like for like at least.

[I]A 20 year old non turbo'd petrol engine in a bigger heavier body isn't really a valid comparison is it?[/I]

FWIW with BMW's there's barely 100kg between a 1 series and a 3 series if both with the same engine/gearbox.

The 435d is actually heavier than the 535i I had previously, xDrive doesn't help.

b r

The 435d is actually heavier than the 535i I had previously, xDrive doesn't help.

Holy shit.

8000 miles per year. the generally accepted break even for derv is 12000. that number can only go up given the £ + nox.

No, unless your wife does a lot of motorway, pottering around town in a diesel is no good for them. The filters get all blocked up, egr valves stick, they're just rubbish. Had a diesel zafira 2 litre, loads of power but it was poo. Of course I may have just been unlucky.

As long as it doesn't kill any cute domesticated animals.

People fine ****-em.

Just bought one but I'm doing a minimum of 15,000 a year and if my shoulder gets fixed I'll be driving to the Alps so maybe as much as 20,000 miles. Next time, 4 years time, I hope to buy a petrol as by then I'm hoping to be doing around 4,000 a year.

Diesel all the way, like early torque and how lazy can you drive them. 4 pot petrol engine sounds like screaming microwave when you rev them, V5 in line6 or V8 that's where it at with petrol engines. 4 pot diesel doesn't whine when you apply *Torque* and make progress. And MPG! I get 60mpg in an automatic E-class over 36k miles of mixed driving, hello?

I think with the mileage and use mentioned I'd go for the petrol Mini for the following reasons:

The petrol engine should be fine in short journeys - the diesel won't like lots of short slow journeys in traffic - it'll clog up the dpf and potentially end up costing you a lot of money to fix.

Your wife doesn't really do enough mileage to justify a diesel - although this arguement is a bit negated by the fact that both cas are a similar cost. Normally new like for like the diesel costs more.

The anti diesel sentiment in the press / in society - it sounds like there's going to be more and more pressure to phase out diesel cars (although at some point this is going to apply to petrol too - they don't exactly produce butterflies and kittens out the exhaust) and this is going to result in tax increases - probably on ved and fuel. Could also get diesel bans on city / town centres.

Diesels aren't the nicest things to listen to either when driving.

That mini must be Euro 5 compliant so will be worse on emissions Jan than the newest euro 6 engines so more likely to get caught up in town bans / tax rises.

I have actually just got a brand new diesel car, but it's a company car so I don't have to worry about depreciation and I'm likely to be doing well over 15k miles per year so cost wise it makes sense. Just bik could be a stinger. I actually prefer the way petrol cars drive - especially small revvy engines ones - I had a Suzuki swift sport a few years back and it was great fun to drive -except on the motorway when it was a loud revvy tin box.

I'll say it again just in case you missed it. You need to try the S. We've got a cooper S clubby. It's nice and nippy. With just 120bhp suspect it'll feel sluggish.

Nissan Leaf or any other electric car OP?

Drive them back to back. That's what we did and after driving the petrol, the diesel felt awful (despite being a newer car with similar bhp and loads more torque).

This.

I did the same & the handling between the two was markedly different - almost like two completely different cars. Probably due to the big, heavy oil burner stuck in the front of one of them.

Having had both petrol & diesel models of the same car now I am happy that I went with petrol this time & there seems to have been no real difference in overall running costs in the two years since I made the change.

I'm with lesgrandepotato if you are after something a bit sporty with some go. The Cooper is just a One with extra shiny bits really. The S gets going, although maybe not with the bigger wheels as they made the loan car we had a bit unforgiving and skittish, size down with taller sidewalls would probably offer more grip.

Sounds like petrol best suits your situation. We have gone back to petrol due to a drop in our annual mileage.

Anybody who has a choice and buys a diesel car right now is an idiot.

winston - Member
Anybody who has a choice and buys a diesel car right now is an idiot.

Anyone who has a brain and just blithely buys a car based on what people in the news and the government say is an idiot.

Like anything else, it requires thought as to your use.

No it really doesn't. Use is now immaterial. Diesels are very bad news. Obviously they always were but:

A few years ago people buying diesels could claim a number of mititgating factors in defence of being an idiot.

They didn't know how bad they were
They knew how bad they were but the economics of thier situation dictated a diesel
No alternatives
favourable tax treatment
etc etc

Now...all gone.

So idiot.

Depends.

I'm currently chugging around very happily in a diesel, which I've owned for 6 years and hoping to get at least another 5 out of. It handles well, has reasonable performance and does a solid 45 to the gallon unless either I'm sat in stationary traffic (which I avoid like the plague) or I'm driving continuously like a total knob.

My mileage has dropped massively now from when I first bought the car - I used to do 15-20k private miles per year, now it's down to 8k or below.

If the arse drops out the diesel car market and there are lots of nicely specced derv cars out there cheap (late model E91 330d anyone?), and if the demand for diesel drops, then I can see it getting cheaper again (OK, with more tax on), then it could still make sense.

For long cruising I do prefer the way a diesel drives - most of the time in the UK you need torque not power, and that's what they're good at. Also I'm not convinced that small cap. turbo petrol engines will last the course - too highly stressed. I can see a lot of woe once they're out of warranty period, and I'm the kind of guy who buys an 80 or 90k car and runs it to 180+k, then no thanks!

The basic thing is not to choose whether you buy petrol, diesel or even EV, but whether you should use a car or a more suitable means of transport (including walking!) for the job.

Also I'm not convinced that small cap. turbo petrol engines will last the course - too highly stressed

I have a feeling that such things are made possible by modern materials and engineering processes. After all, turbos aren't a new idea so such a concept will have been well known for ages, only now it's feasible. We'll see.

Oh dear, looks like turny things 101 is needed again.

molgrips - Member

No, not at all. Torque IS action

Torque has no component of time so it has nothing to do with speed or "action". For that you need [i]power[/i].

Think of it like this as an easy way to remember the difference: torque is the size of caravan you can tow, power is how quickly you can tow it (don't worry, there won't be a race).

As for petrol vs diesel, I'm firmly in the petrol camp. I did less than 4,000 miles in my last year of car ownership so outright mpg was less of a concern, though running costs of friend's diesels has been alarming (DPF,DMF etc).
Diesels sound awful (even the most auto-disinterested can tell when the taxi has arrived), are dirty and sooty, and I simply don't like their power delivery.
Never understood why some people are so averse to using the range of an engine, but then I'm used to tuned up Hondas that would happily and reliably rev through the roof and had gearboxes that were a joy to use.
If you don't like changing gear or using revs then of course an auto diesel makes sense, just not my cup of tea.

After all, turbos aren't a new idea

Nope, I've help change loads! 😉

I'm on the fence at the moment.

My current car is a 2.0l diesel with all wheel drive on demand, gets around 44mpg, not far shy of the official 47mpg. I do 20k miles a year but mostly on twisty country lanes so keeping it above 2000rpm for the half hour plus required to clear out the DPF is difficult. I've had it 2 years and it's already had one £800 DPF associated repair job

The 1.5T petrol equivalent latest model allegedly gets 46mpg so if I were to get one of those and got as close to the official figure as I do now, there wouldn't be much in it, and I wouldn't be worried about the next DPF repair bill. And I wouldn't be contributing as much to asthma and other diesel associated health problems . But I would be contributing more to climate change compared to a diesel

So there I am, undecided

Car - no. Our annual car mileage is low, so no point.
Van - there's barely any choice. Well, there is a petrol vw 2l tsi with 204ps/350Nm, that sounds fine, but it's as rare as hen's teeth in the uk.

Anybody who has a choice and buys a diesel car right now is an idiot.

Find me a petrol estate with 4WD, good rear legroom behind a 6ft+ driver, >600L of boot space that is relatively quick yet does >40mpg in the real world.

That's why I ended up with a diesel. I hope it will last until electric is an option with the 500 mile + range I need.

Yep vans are the problem. We have a long wheelbase hightop transit for business and there is absolutely nothing we can swap it for. There is one EV van coming to market but its range is not great and it can't tow enough for us.

oldbloke

Find me a petrol estate with 4WD, good rear legroom behind a 6ft+ driver, >600L of boot space that is relatively quick yet does >40mpg in the real world.

Skoda Superb Estate, 280 TSI Sportline 4x4.

@oldbloke

Tesla Model S has 900 litres of cargo space and 4wd!

Why do you need 500 miles of range? Do you often drive that far without a single break?

Skoda Superb Estate, 280 TSI Sportline 4x4.