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My daughter is lost career wise!
She's 24 and has worked for five years in the horse industry as a live-in groom. A year ago she came to the realisation there was no future in this and came home. She's been working in a local farm shop and doing shifts in the village pub since.
She's a covid kid - it hit half way through her A-Levels and that's when she decided to leave and go in the horse industry. She took a stable yard management apprenticeship and passed that with ease.
So another apprenticeship of some sort seems the ideal path and she's keen to get into vehicle mechanics - she's very practical and a quick learner. This is proving tricky though as without any sort of experience no one is interested. I guess the market is already full of lads who've played with cars and now just need a formal qualification to progress.
Now this is where the forces come in! I believe they offer very good apprentice training and she'd probably stand more chance of getting training this way. But obviously harassment worry comes into play here - but doing a google it's statistically less
I just feel the discipline and training of a few years the forces would help her focus.
She's very much like me in that I pick things up quickly but unless there's someone to kick me up the arse I settle for mediocrity when I know I could do a lot better! 🙂
She's already got a HGV licence from her horse days (and approved to drive commerially), but she doesn't want a career in that area.
Any thoughts!?
No issue with suggesting the forces. It feels like the way the world is going, there's an ever increasing likelihood of being involved in actual conflicts, but not every role is in the front lines.
However, as an alternative, assuming she's outdoorsy and doesn't mind getting her hands dirty, how about looking at one of the crafts at a distribution network operator. She could train as a lines person, cable jointer or fitter. Plenty of people start out in the tools and climb through the ranks if that's what they want.
Don't the armed forces, or at least the army, suffer from a very high rate of sexual abuse of female staff?
Full disclosure - I was RN, but a long time ago in the early late 80s, early 90s so take the below with a pinch of salt.
In no particular order:-
1 - Have you seen news recently? I'd say anyone joining now needs to go in eyes wide open that it is more likely than not you will find yourself in an actual conflict of some description at some point in your career. There are two groups that I really worry about with that. One are the group that get a right strop on when it happens and it takes them by surprise. Happy to take the pay and 'perks' but lose the plot when it's an actual thing. The other are those that want it and look forward to it - thrive on it. It's properly horrible - you are a bit of a wrongun if you really want it imo. She's 24 - she should be mature enough to have given this some proper thought beforehand.
2- She's 24. Given she has a brain and assuming she's joining in the ranks rather than through officer training (though it's not much different) I'd say that's about as old as I'd want to be on joining. You 'could' call it discipline - or you could call it an ability to swallow bullshit and follow stupid rules delivered 'rustically'. And process and procedure ad nauseam, especially in the early months. I'd say there is a finite amount of previous life experience you can have and soak that up and it not do your head in.
3. Thankfully the services have moved on from 35 years ago in terms of chauvinism and sexism and the ratio of men to women has improved.... a bit. But.....I'd suggest the number of 'old school' attitudes you'll encounter in serving men is higher than civvy street. And Andrew Tait's 'message' to young men is heard louder in the services than elsewhere. Those might be an element of her colleagues, or worse her leaders.
4. It's not a job. It's a complete lifestyle. It invades every part of you. That might be a good thing...or not. But you need to want that.
Having said all that - there are some great transferable trades to be picked up in the mob. Two of my friends have sons that joined in the last two years - one as a navy diver and the other as a medic. They will both be well set in their 30s if the choose to move on.
One of my kids did national service so not in the UK obvs., but it didnt really help him decide what to do after.
What does she actually, like ? Apart ffom mechanics, but if she doesnt actually want to be in the forces its a tough route to take
Parents don't send your children to finish what politicians started
2- She's 24. Given she has a brain and assuming she's joining in the ranks rather than through officer training (though it's not much different) I'd say that's about as old as I'd want to be on joining. You 'could' call it discipline - or you could call it an ability to swallow bullshit and follow stupid rules delivered 'rustically'. And process and procedure ad nauseam, especially in the early months. I'd say there is a finite amount of previous life experience you can have and soak that up and it not do your head in.
I did two stints - I'd agree very much with this.
Sent you a very long message about my tale as half way through I decided it was perhaps sharing too much in a public place.
Advise? No. Support? Yes.
The army didn't suit 18 year old me and almost certainly fostered my distrust of authority and inability to suffer bullshit. Bullying was rife and I had the only new locker in our billet because the previous occupant of the pit had been locked in it by an NCO who then set it alight... My son is so laid back he's almost horizontal and cannot be persuaded to do things he doesn't want to under any circumstances so I suspect he wouldn't fair too well either. However, in the highly unlikely event that he wanted to serve I would do all I could to ensure he went in with his eyes wide open.
I think she's got to want to do it, a lot - it's so SO much more than your 9 to 5, innit. I tried (and failed) twice to join the Royal Marines, I'm sure I would have loved it if I'd made the grade - I later applied to join the Royal Navy as an artificer because it paid well, didn't take it forward because I realised that wasn't a good enough reason to live that life, I felt I would need to have loved to have done that too to make it worthwhile.
Horses, courses, and all that.
I know a few outdoorsy girls in the construction industry, site surveys, engineering. Some trades can short training and good pay. HGV drivers are generally better paid now since Brexit lots of demand.
The Army I joined is not the Army I left, and my position and the privilege that came with that in my final few years leaves me entirely unqualified to speak to what it is like to be an entry level bod in any of the services.
Be wary of those who speak with authority from positions of outdated irrelevance or with axes to grind. The services are very different from 20/30 years ago, in some ways good but also some ways worse.
I'll advise only two things and warn 1:
- Advice 1: If this is a serious consideration, do some collective research on roles, I'd encourage roles that are of genuinely interest, avoid trades unless that's her jam because it sure has hell sucks at times and 4 years is a long time in a job you hate. Be wary of the PR! You could encourage her to connect to serving forums on social media, she'll likely get a fairly honest take on what it's like. Reddit has some good forums and there are some good egg female military bods on tiktok and IG who could provide current insight of the experience of servicewomen.
- Advice 2: If service is what she wants, support her to go all-in. No plan b. No wishy washy, 100% focussed. Anything less leads to a shitty time.
- The warning: Be sure you want to encourage it if it's not something she has considered. The worst case of that career choice is a casualty notification officer knocks on your door to tell you news that will crush your world. I've been that guy, and it's not something I'd wish on people I dislike immensely. That's the potential of the world you could encourage her into so take that into consideration.
I had a great time though, genuinely wouldn't change a thing, even that bad stuff but then I'm a borderline sociopath.
Some of my good mates think it was the worst decision they ever made and wished they hadn't wasted their years on it.
And I know that doesn't answer your question, that's deliberate as it's your kid and you life and I wouldn't want to steer you wrong with a perspective you didn't ask for.
Think long and hard mate.
My experience is very dated. I left in 2004. I served 24 years from 16 as a junior soldier at an army apprentice college, through the ranks to a commission. I worked for the MOD in a civilian role long after that and was/am in regular contact with serving guys and gals, but I won't pretend to be be current so take what I say with a huge pinch of salt.
Firstly, the forces are not one homogeneous blob and once past basic training, experiences vary wildly depending on unit, trade etc. Some people love it, some tolerate it, some hate it. Some organisations treat their soldiers (or airmen etc) with compassion and respect and sadly some, or some individuals within them don't. It's a bit of a lottery.
I loved my time and wouldn't change a thing but good friends doing exactly the same job as me were killed or left with life changing injuries.
However much things have changed, I think it's always going to be a bit tougher for a female.
I have 2 kids, now both in their mid 30s. When they were at school they both joined the CCF and did very well. My daughter was selected as lord lieutenant's cadet. Both at times made noises about joining up. I'll be honest, I heaved a little sigh of relief when they didn't.
The very best of luck to her, whatever she decides.
Don't join the forces. She will be sent to the front at some point in future. The great war is coming perhaps near the end of her career but it is definitely coming.
"So another apprenticeship of some sort seems the ideal path and she's keen to get into vehicle mechanics"
That's absolutely the right path. Specialise in EV and anything electronics etc. That's the future.
If finances allow do the local college do any kind of apprenticeship scheme? When I was briefly medically retired from my first career I did a 1-year accelerated course at Fife College to become a GasSafe engineer. It included the necessary work-place shadowing and as soon as I got my SVQ certificate I was good to head out into the wide world. In the adjacent classrooms were young 'uns learning carpentry, electrickery, cabinet-making, brick-laying, etc.
If she's after a trade, I'd be looking at apprenticeship options outside the Forces. Given her age and experience, some honest chat with local engineering or vehicle mechanic companies might be worthwhile - she's obviously got a work ethic, just needs direction. There's a few HGV/agricultural businesses round your way, a couple of bigger engineering players in Derby, all the warehouses at East Mids and Junction 28.
vehicle mechanic companies
I was going to suggest large vehicle/ plant/farm machinery technician. These are always advertised and suit her current experience, although whether that translates to an apprenticeship is another matter
JCB, Toyota, etc but manufacturing-biased as outliers
The advice a friend of mine gave was to join the raf. He was in the raf but his reasoning was thus. The odds of going to war are the lowest. Unless you are a pilot most bases are not that close to conflict so relatively safe. In the army clearly you are nearly all boots on the ground.
The advice a friend of mine gave was to join the raf. He was in the raf but his reasoning was thus. The odds of going to war are the lowest. Unless you are a pilot most bases are not that close to conflict so relatively safe. In the army clearly you are nearly all boots on the ground.
Yeah, it's not like the RAF Regiment deploy outside the wire, or the tactical supply wing (fuelers) or the joint helicopter support unit, or the RAF police, or the joint helicopter support unit, or the mobile air operations teams.
Bastion never got breached, Basra COB was never attacked multiple times daily. There wasn't a contingency for insider attacks and abductions.
Ironically it was an RAF driver type who got killed by a rocket whilst having a shit in the portaloos.
No matter where you are, if you're on operations there is a risk to life. 'Boots on the ground' or not.
You dont say if shes mentioned it about joining the forces or if this is your possible suggestion.
My sister did the same, left school, worked with horses at a training yard, hunt stables etc (as had experience of owning her own horses in the family) - got the qualifications etc but then realised it was a bit of a dead end - and when your hobby becomes your job......
She left and went and trained to be a nurse after becoming a nursing auxiliary to try it out first.
Nope - not ever.
Random thought are they Autistic/ADHD? Only asking as how you describe them reminds me of people I know who are one or t'other.
The other option that might be good is crewing on posh boats. Some friends kids do this, they get to go great places, make money & have a lot fun.
Biased (Army, reservist), but I suggest that the advice given from those that have been in (R-M, BOTR, Convert, et al) is more relevant to the discussion than something I can provide unless it is related to my former branch.
However, my nephew is going through the same decision process now for the Royal Marines. I think he has left it too long (he's 25 now) and it is for exactly the same reasons as Convert gave above. He's got a job, he's suffered through the start of a career and is now a supervisor, so how comfortable will he be to go back to being treated like a kid? I do not doubt his fitness or his ability to stick with the training, I just think he'll have a tough time with the structure.
It can be very rewarding, but the advice I was given when I thought about applying to the regulars after uni was "What comes after? What skills can you give a future employer after x years of being an infantry platoon commander?". At some point, she will want to leave and do something else, so choosing a career path and having transferable skills is a good idea.
Just off top of my head so apologies if already suggested: Police sections who work with horses, utility company apprenticeships, server and networks, defence, aviation industry apprenticeships and last but not least train driving.
Police sections who work with horses
Not many of them these days, see also underwater search teams and other specialisms. A very few forces hire their skills out to others
The whole of West Midlands Police has one apprentice groom
Police sections who work with horses
Not many of them these days, see also underwater search teams and other specialisms. A very few forces hire their skills out to others
The whole of West Midlands Police has one apprentice groom
Ah fair enough. I guess it's the way of many places outsourcing and down sizing.
I forgot Air Traffic Control - great career if she can get into it.
"What comes after? What skills can you give a future employer after x
Two guys that I know who were in the marines (I think it was marines) ended up working in the private security sector and made lots and lots of tax free money. One of them did it for >10 years, made (in his words) a shit ton of money and is now retired at 53 living in the Alps.
The other was on ships for a few years shooting at pirates. He lives it and only stopped when his missus got pregnant.
Interesting debate. A few thoughts spring to mind based on quite a lot of history with forces and my family.
Most recently my brother did about 15+ years in Royal Engineers. He left school with little qualifications and 'needed' to get away from home environment so went in the earliest day he could sign up. He is now 45 and has never had any difficulty having very well paid jobs in the construction and energy industries because the forces basically gave him every ticket qualification he could ask for. He had an amazing time travelling all over the world, sometimes in some very scary places. It set him up for life and he has a very comfortable life now.
With regards to your daughter. It just doesnt hit home that she is committed to it and imo you need to be. Is it something that you have raised and she hasnt shot down immediately? I cant imagine how miserable it would be trying to get through the tough times if it wasnt something you actually really wanted to do. That would worry me more than any danger in actual being involved in any wars. Suicide and depression.....
If my own daughter wanted to join the forces i would encourage it to the hilt as long as they were 100% committed and really wanted to make the most of it as a lifestyle for when they were in and to take advantage of the training and qualifications they can gain along the way.
Police sections who work with horses
Not many of them these days, see also underwater search teams and other specialisms. A very few forces hire their skills out to others
The whole of West Midlands Police has one apprentice groom
Ah fair enough. I guess it's the way of many places outsourcing and down sizing.
I forgot Air Traffic Control - great career if she can get into it.
My cousin did an entire career in RN air traffic control. She retired as early as possible (Before 50) owning a london property. She has rented it out for last 15 years and travels the world renting in different countries. Another one who has had a great life due to the armed forces.
You dont say if shes mentioned it about joining the forces or if this is your possible suggestion.
It's been chucked out there by both of us. But only as an idea to get training, not a 'I really want to join up', so not a long held desire. Her cousin (also female - and currently in the USA doing Camp America at a Ranch) is joining the army in a couple of months to train as a physio rather than going to Uni so that's put the idea in her head too.
Random thought are they Autistic/ADHD? Only asking as how you describe them reminds me of people I know who are one or t'other.
She probably is to some extent but nothing diagnosed. She's very confident in many areas, then surprises us by being nervous of something fairly basic. Like she took off on her own to Gdansk last year, sorted all the logistics out, flights, bus travel, hostel, trains all without any issues. All we got was 'I'm off to Gdansk next week'. She regularly takes herself off to the lakes and goes walking alone bagging the Wainwrights.
Ask her to phone garage for a price for a new tyre though - that's a major task that needs weeks of arse-kicking to get her to do it! 🙂
Yeah, it's not like the RAF Regiment deploy outside the wire, or the tactical supply wing (fuelers) or the joint helicopter support unit, or the RAF police, or the joint helicopter support unit, or the mobile air operations teams.
Completely accept that. My friend was at Basra. My point is it’s less risky than being in an infantry unit
I'd say go for the career that appeals, not the one you think lines up to a particular civilian job. If you know what civilian job you want, just do that in the first place and save the bother. Basic training isn't meant to be fun (but neither is living with your parents at 30 I guess).
If she likes horses there are loads of options to work with them in the Army. King's Troop Royal Horse Artillery or Household Cavalry Mounted Regiment are the obvious ways in. The veterinary corps is quite broad too and covers environmental bits.
Every part of the Army has vehicles, mechanics and instructors. She could well spend her time alternating between horsey stuff and a technical career pipeline on armoured vehicles.
Most soldiers probably have ADHD/autism or whatever we'd choose to call it. Formality helps. The Army has a history of doing very well for people who didn't click with mainstream schooling.
She's 24 and has worked for five years in the horse industry as a live-in groom.
My cousin did similar but then married the boss & has enjoyed a very comfortable life ever since...
Basic training isn't meant to be fun (but neither is living with your parents at 30 I guess).
The living with parents again has hit hard!
She was 17 when she moved out. Since then we've moved to a slightly smaller house - so leaving as child and coming back as a fully functioning adult hasn't been great for any of us! 😬
Very sorry! That was meant as a generalism. PM inbound!
I wasnt sure so first googled.
I was put in mind of it as there was a chap i worked for whose niece was an the point of joining the army, but going directly into officer school, rather than join the regulars.
So answer after gooooogling ...
"Yes, a woman can directly join officer training in the UK without serving as a soldier first. This is called a Direct Entry Officer application, and all roles—including combat roles—are open to women"
Is says 'including combat roles' which suggests there are roles not in that aspect that are available' I couldn't elaborate on that further, but there will be info somewhere.
After reading the thread, a great concern is abuse. I would expect all training recruits to receive a fair level of it given the nature of the task they are destined .
And I've hung about the services forum ARRSE to know misogyny is a part of that forum and the military in general(Mostly blokes I suppose) and they say stuff that would get you booted off here, and probably get a nasty letter saying dont darken our door again, sent annually.
I'm not denigrating them for it, i understand gallows humour and think it's a great forum with many comical anecdotes and other interesting military stuff. Bit too sexist for my sensitive persona, but they are what they are and it is what it is, and push comes to shove i dont think any would be abusive to women outside the usual population demographic.
So perhaps joining officer school would be a route to experience all the good things that the military offers, with possibly more respect from being the officer section.
I only know one person personally that was in the services and he was a Commander in the Navy. Chap i used to sail with, and he clearly loved his job and was a really nice guy to boot.
And I've hung about the services forum ARRSE to know misogyny is a part of that forum and the military in general
You know they're all old as **** right? They're the same generations who make social media veteran forums an uninviting space. You are judging the modern armed forces by the behaviour of very different generations. Not to say abhorrent behaviours don't exist, the forces are a microcosm of society.
I'd suggest you find better places to hang out chap.
If she's interested in vehicle mechanics and already has an HGV licence and does decide to go into the forces, REME seems a good fit. A long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away I was looking into joining the TA and as a graduate civil engineer the obvious outfit for me was Royal Engineers. I got some great advice from a REME officer. "RE build bridges under fire. We recover and fix vehicles. If someone starts shooting at us we get in our trucks and f*** off". He was also similarly scathing about artillery and cavalry. Anyway I got Chartered and buggered off overseas for a bit so it all came to nought for me.
I always figured one of the best forces jobs would be RAF ground crew. Would she count aircraft amongst vehicle mechanics?
My point is it’s less risky than being in an infantry unit
You didn't specify infantry when you said:
In the army clearly you are nearly all boots on the ground.
Not all soldiers are infanteers, or other "teeth arms". In fact most are not. However as RM has pointed out, that doesn't really matter on operations, as everyone including chefs, medics, mechanics or whatever are in the firing line one way or another. IMHO it's best not to try to do some fag packet maths on a basis of perceived risk by service or cap badge.
ANYONE joining ANY branch of our armed forces should accept that will probably entail deployment on operations where there will be a risk of death or injury. If you can't accept that, or think that stuff like that just happens to other people, you should look elsewhere for employment. Not to overstate it of course, the vast majority of people survive their service relatively unscathed, but a not insignificant minority don't. This does need to be fully taken on board by anyone enlisting. Thinking you can get all of the benefits with none of the risks is a mistake.
First decide if you can accept the generic risks of service, then think if the military lifestyle will suit. Only then if you are fully reconciled to these, think about branch and role based on your skills and interests. IMO people who have approached enlistment with that mindset, rather than "I fancy getting a trade and doing a bit of free travel" are far more likely to stick it out, enjoy it and do well.
Watching the amount of therapy my best mate has needed to deal with his PTSD, and how totally ****ed up he was when he got back from having people actively trying to kill him every day (and succeeding in killing the people around him), I'd advise against it
You know they're all old as **** right?
Steady on! 😮 😜
Although for the avoidance of doubt, despite being older than God's dog, I steer well clear of ARRSE and other veterans forums. They are indeed populated by a strange breed who bore for England about the good old days and who I struggle to identify with. Proud of my service, but those days are long gone and I'm too busy enjoying my current life to constantly hark back to a former one that was OK, but maybe not quite as great as all those misty eyed old sweats reckon.
Watching the amount of therapy my best mate has needed to deal with his PTSD, and how totally ****ed up he was when he got back from having people actively trying to kill him every day (and succeeding in killing the people around him), I'd advise against it
Would he?
You know they're all old as **** right?
Steady on! 😮 😜
Although for the avoidance of doubt, despite being older than God's dog, I steer well clear of ARRSE and other veterans forums. They are indeed populated by a strange breed who bore for England about the good old days and who I struggle to identify with. Proud of my service, but those days are long gone and I'm too busy enjoying my current life to constantly hark back to a former one that was OK, but maybe not quite as great as all those misty eyed old sweats reckon.
Sorry old boy. Aye, they're more a caricature of a veteran. My generation mark and avoid them.
I got some great advice from a REME officer. "RE build bridges under fire. We recover and fix vehicles. If someone starts shooting at us we get in our trucks and f*** off". He was also similarly scathing about artillery and cavalry.
Not such great advice. All cap badges slag off all the others, all of the time. The Sappers call the REME "Royal Engineers Made Easy" (amongst other things). You'll never get an unbiased opinion about one branch or cap badge from someone serving in another.
