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On a wide team call at the moment and a very senior manager is saying that “the old ways of five days in the office are gone”
Yeah, I've heard that too, this is one area that worries me slightly.
On the face of it WFH offers both employees and employers lots of benefits that, IMHO out weigh the negatives. A reduction in costs for both sides, reductions in commuting etc, but of course a lot of business are run by complete psychopaths or worse are so large that morality is completely lost.
It's really not safe to assume that more flexible working hours, means less working hours.
Heard through the grapevine (so it may not be legit) that the local Police county HQ has been sold, so all the support staff that were WFH due to the virus will be continuing as there is no office to go back to.
I think a big problem will be for people to have the space for a better,permanent set up at home. Most friends I know that are WFH are using dining room tables/ picnic tables as stop gaps. Not everyone has the benefit of a spare room/study.
If you're WFH- does the company still have a responsibility under DSE? Would laptops etc be covered by work insurance the employee house ins?
What was it somebody was saying on here about everybody being a "chunk or hunk" after lockdown?
Obviously that's dreadfully sexist and I would be livid if I thought the blokes at work were saying that about us - but it is stuck in my head now. I have to think of an excuse for smirking in every branch heads video call. Shameful...
One of the big advantages of current technology is that we can work from almost anywhere.
One of the big disadvantages is that we can work any time!
As far as team building/bonding goes that's never really been an issue for me. I work for a global company and I've never met a manager of mine or a team mate in probably more than 5 years now. I'll probably work at home more in the future.
I think now would be a great time to invest in shared office space businesses. Lots of employers, including mine, likely to close big head offices and there will therefor be more demand for local hub type shared space where people can work if WFH is not possible/preferable for them.
Shared local offices with decent coffee, decent desks, printing and some banter will be in demand.
I work in IT for a big American bank. 100% of what I do can be done from home. 10-20% of it is probably better f2f.
I have a dedicated office at home, but Mrs Dubs is working on the dining table so not ideal. She's a PE teacher though, so not much long term prospect of her WFH long term 🙂
FWIW, I have heard some tales of folk who are supposed to be WFH not actually doing much so there is a bit of a push to get back to some office working, but it's going to be just 25% of people to start with.
I already have a contract amendment to have 2 days a week WFH, I doubt that will change.
I used to work from home 4 days a week , up until I got made redundant 5 years ago.
I’be had three jobs since then where WFH was not an option. Possible yes, but not with the culture at those places.
Then in August last year I started contracting for the company that made me redundant in 2015. WFH was very much back on the table, I’d do one or two days a week WFH. Since mid March I’ve been full time WFH, and I’m now also back on their payroll as an employee.
Our department (IT) has a very positive view of WFH, other departments were less keen. I suspect that may change now that it’s been proven to work, but not to 100% WFH for all departments; I suspect we developers especially will continue 5 days a week from home, probably until at least the end of the year. Then very slowly returning to office maybe one or two days a week, but only if absolutely necessary.
Not a city centre office, we’re a manufacturing plant just off the Motorway
It’s really not safe to assume that more flexible working hours, means less working hours.
Well, no, at best it would be fewer working hours 😉
Still figuring out how to train juniors properly...
This is the main issue for me. I'm a Civil Engineer and great thing about having people around is being able to bring the young guys through and give them proper experience with proper supervision. There's nothing better than just being able to lift your head up and ask a question. Similarly theres nothing worse than listening to someone giving really bad advice to someone learning the ropes. If you cant hear them because WFH how can you guide them...
I won't be going back in the office full time after this but we'll need to be in for a few days a week.
Thinking something similar but what I wonder is how it works to build up relationships with people over Zoom as opposed to face-to-face. How do you go about “team building” when you work remotely? At present all the team members know each other well from the time we spent together in the office, but when will that knowledge expire?
This a problem for me. We work on projects that typically run for 18 months, then disband and start another with another random group of people.
Also the new starter/graduates will be a struggle.
I'd like the office to be optional, I do miss it. Ideally perhapse they would split the week so you had to clock in for 16h or 20h rather than 40 and the rest could be WFH.
I suspect productivity will nosedive at some point in our company once everyone either stops doing 12h days to compensate or just bruns out as a result.
I'd be quite happy to do four days at home and one in the office.
I work on the sales side of a manufacturing business and after a couple of days of "novelty" we've all settled down and got on with it.
The Government want to spend a few million upgrading the motorway junction near my house, I'd rather that they spent it on better broadband!
I’d like the office to be optional, I do miss it. Ideally perhapse they would split the week so you had to clock in for 16h or 20h rather than 40 and the rest could be WFH.
That wouldn't work - at least not for team building. You all need to be there at the same time. I can see offices deciding that Monday is for team A, Tuesday for team B, etc. Does mean hot desking of course, which is pretty crap, but then I suppose all of your team resources will have to be online anyway.
I think a lot will depend on the cultural thinking of management / leadership teams etc. Those that could develop a WFH culture but choose to oppose it will largely be shortsighted IMO. Whereas those that already do it or actively encourage or explore it will likely find ways to make it work. Plenty of variables / factors involved though.
I say that based on WFH on and off (increasingly more) over the last 20 years. Current (contracted) role is 100% remote working with teams around Australia, the US and Europe. It helps that 1) I know how to make it work and 2) the organisation in this instance are very people-centric.
It's not going to be everyone's cup of tea but there will be a sea change for many methinks.
Our work, conference production is 100% live events and people meeting face to face. If we can survive the fact that we currently can't work at all then the WFH may work for us in that people and teams will need to be brought together at times and these meetings may well be in the typical venues we work in if companies no longer have the facilities in house. On the other hand we might be stuffed.
One thing that would concern me for those working from home is that individuals may be far more susceptible to bullying managers and how much worse will it be for people under stress never to leave the place where they experience it. When the workforce are a bunch of disparate individuals who don't meet in the kitchen or canteen or pub after work to slag off the boss they are in a weaker position and can be played off against each other very easily.
A lot of the comments seem to follow a trend of "I can work from home but would like to go to the office to meet real people / socialise / be seen / team build"
I think this comes from the feeling of comfort you get with doing what you always did. It is like a lot of retired people still go shopping on weekends because that is when they shop rather than during the week when there are less people around. People add to the experience.
Possibly a better example for this forum are the people like to watch their TV programs on certain days at specific times because they are used to the schedule and streaming the shows on the wrong day just seems wrong. 10 years ago we all watched to schedule but now we expect to watch what we want, when we want. Attitudes to adjust over time.
If you have done the WFH for a reasonable length of time you do all the team building and stuff on line as quite a few people on here have said. It just changes how you do it a bit.
The same is true for teaching / training. Yes it is easier F2F but can be just as effective done remotely. You just have to do it differently. BTGW did you kow there is an option in MS Teams for the host to monitor your video stream and automatically identify if you are not paying attention?
WFH is much better when everyone is doing it, so you're not missing out on the action in the office.
We may be moving towards it, from some stuff the MD has said.
I think my level of comfort with it comes from not having a stable consistent office for ages. My wife mentioned last night about needing to go back into her office to clear some things out of her desk - I’ve not had a permanent desk in an office since about 2003. Even the long term projects I’ve worked on where I had to be on site I’d be scrapping for a hot desk with everyone else.
I would agree with ADS678, being in a room with other engineers of different levels of experience is great for sorting out problems you've not experienced before. I've learnt over the years a lot from this method than I would have siting at home. Also being all able to sit around and go over an A1 drawing. Yes, I know there are electronic ways to do this, but my organisation still works off not much further on than back of fag packets....
My organisation was moving towards greater home working and closing offices (my commute will go from 3 miles to 20miles), so this will accelerate it. We do a lot of work over the phone and with skype and now MSteam. So this will increase.
Its more what facilities I have at home. I've a 3 and 5 year old, and I'm using a camping table in my son's room. I need to be able to do CAD, so a proper desk and chair and second monitor would be good. And an A3 printer. And a door I can lock!
Can any one recommend a low cost garden office/shed with a wood burning stove to keep it usable in winter?
I see a lot of summer houses being sold in the next few months for conversion to home offices. If I ran a shed / summer house company I would be advertising them like mad. Same with stand alone power such as a solar with big storage batteries and a generator back up for those who can't run cables from the house.
If I didn't already have an office set up in the house I would be SO tempted to make a tree house in the garden and work from that
Hmmm, there is a big oak tree at the bottom of the garden. I wonder if I could rig up something like this?
Working from home in style
Today is the first day I've been utterly ****ed off, sitting at home looking at ridiculous faceless emails that don't contribute to anything, doing spreadsheets and reports for the sake of making our managers look good.
I spoke to a peer colleague and the thought is that its just not being able to bounce ideas around, or have little/comedy grumbles to people who understand your position which is mentally challenging.
I might have a beer in a minute.
Kryton - arrange a day long meeting with the colleagues you like.. Just leave your microphones open and do your normal day job. You will here what the others are talking about and doing and can chip in when you want. Just remember to mute for private stuff. You will soon realise how mundane it all is.
A more realistic approach might be to have a group chat window open where you can just post random stuff up, work or non-work.
If you have done the WFH for a reasonable length of time you do all the team building and stuff on line as quite a few people on here have said. It just changes how you do it a bit.
Yeah, I'm sure you can do the team building stuff and all that, but personally I'm not thinking about it from my employer's PoV - it's me being selfish, I miss chatting with my workmates. Our quick after lunch stroll where sometimes we talk about work, but could just as easily be talking about the plans for the weekend. Having a coffee with them. That bit.
A more realistic approach might be to have a group chat window open where you can just post random stuff up, work or non-work
I'm sure our managers won't like that. I think moreover I've had a tough day, with a manager/management who despite the fact that we are 2 in a former team of 5 seems to think we sit about all day doing nothing, when the opposite - with double my sales numbers to achieve this year - is the issue. On top of that and because of that I'm not really taking breaks either - which is my issue I know.
The genie is out of the bottle, the world has changed. As someone else said earlier, "the old ways of five days in the office are gone" which is bang on the money and like with any major change it just requires people to accept it.
Obviously some jobs can't be done remotely, you're not going to get many WFH car mechanics and there's merit to putting people together for mentoring and training. But the days of going into an office solely because "we've always done that" are surely over.
How do you go about “team building” when you work remotely?
Why do you need team building at all when you're not sharing an office?
I think I've met my boss twice, both years ago before he was my boss, and I've met my partner-in-crime colleague a couple of times at conferences. I don't think the juniors in the team have met our boss at all. We get on famously, not once have I thought "you know, this team would work so much better if we spent an afternoon building a bridge out of drinking straws."
To be fair it’s not a shock that not everyone works (mentally and professionally) in different ways. As an IT / programming person, it’s a style of work that works for me.
Yeah, and this is a big one, differing personality types. There's a meme doing the rounds, to paraphrase, "Introverts: check on your extrovert mates, they're not used to this, they're not OK!" and whilst it's a silly joke it does rather highlight that half the population think differently from the other half. There's folk on here already missing going into work, my workplace is 15 minutes away and if I never have to go in again I'd do the Dance of Joy.
Programming is a good example for me too. At work I could generally spin multiple plates on sticks all day (and still be able to spod on STW), but programming required my undivided attention. Someone coming along going "have you got a minute," well sure, why not, you've already just cost me the last half an hour.
Kryton - Sounds shit. I don't think is sounds any better if your are not working from home though.
It is funny how managers assume people will default to skive mode even though they have measurable deliverables and targets. Perhaps it is because they do not have the appropriate measures of their own performance. They can only hit their target if you hit yours. If they WFH and don't do anything but you work hard they still hit their target. They might be worried someone will spot that
The same is true for teaching / training. Yes it is easier F2F but can be just as effective done remotely.
Around 50% of what I do is workshops/teaching. I agree with WCA in that it can be done remotely. But not the same as you did it F2F! I re-wrote all the material to suit shorter sessions with lots more polls/interaction. Also employed my daughter who manages the chat and writes transcripts (very useful for reflective people who may not want to talk in the session)
Two projects with people I’ve never physically met. Expected issues but we got through it. Learned a lot as well. Rest of my work is with people I know and it’s easier.
Since I work for myself, I’m pretty relaxed about it. I don’t think I’ll be getting on any university campuses for a few months. I’ve WFH when I’m not on site for years anyway so all set up. Appreciate it’s harder if you haven’t been/don’t have dedicated space.
My view is I’ll do what the customers want. Been fun adapting and I don’t miss the travel (but I do miss the people)
Alex - that is what I meant. Well done for understanding the changes required. Perhaps you could prepare some training material on the subject
Oh and what happened to managing by output not input? If managers are worried about staff they can’t see, they’re not good managers for the most part. Lack of effort agreeing objectives/deadlines etc.
Well done for understanding the changes required. Perhaps you could prepare some training material on the subject
🙂 Strangely, I’ve ended up running some sessions for other consultants for us to share what works and what doesn’t. That’s been really valuable. I’ve learned from them and I hope vice versa. Also lots of tips on best collaborative products to use etc. As I say, been fun adapting.
Totally agree – I’m an IT trainer currently WFH, much of what I do can be done from here but long and involved training sessions really need face to face, IMO, people just switch off in a lengthy webed.
I switch off for all IT training, I find it just as easy to be bored in a classroom as I do on webex
If the only reason to go to an office is one of trust, you either have the wrong manager or the wrong staff.
This is something else that's going to have to change, the clock-watchers really aren't going to like it. We're going to have to start measuring people by their performance rather than the raw hours they have their arse at a desk possibly doing SFA.
I'm really lucky in that's exactly how I'm managed. My boss knows that a given task should be (say) a day's work, so if I'm efficient enough to do it in six hours then lucky me I get a short day, conversely if it takes 10 then that's my own fault for being crap.* By the same token it (usually) doesn't matter if I do it in office hours or from 6pm till 2 in the morning so long as the work gets done on time. If I were to swing the lead it'd become very apparent quickly due to my lack of output rather than because I'm not online on Teams at 8:31am.
(* - this could be abused if my boss was to regularly underestimate times and essentially have me working for free, but in practice it doesn't happen for me personally and I'd absolutely be claiming overtime if it did.)
Oh and what happened to managing by output not input? If managers are worried about staff they can’t see, they’re not good managers for the most part. Lack of effort agreeing objectives/deadlines etc.
A lot of the problem comes from this old-School idea that if you’re really, really good at your job you’d be the perfect person to manage other people doing the same. Rather than seeing management as a job within itself.
You can hardly blame people, a lot of places either have a fixed pay rate (or narrow scale) for any given role. For some people the only way to advance financially is via a step-up to management.
Management ain’t easy, measuring people based on timekeeping is.
Why do you need team building at all when you’re not sharing an office?
Well, it depends if you are actually a team or not. A team is a group of people who work interdependently towards a shared goal. If you are just a bunch of people who happen to do the same thing, then you aren't a team so don't need team building.
In the bad old days of IT, projects had 'analyst teams' and 'dev teams' and 'test teams'. Those weren't teams at all, just collections of people performing tasks that someone else assigned to them. Today more agile approaches try to actually have teams who collaborate to achieve their goals, and setting them up wholly remotely is difficult. But not impossible.
I have been WFH since about 2008 with the amount of time on client sites steadily declining. Totally works for me now and I really couldn't face an office-based role anymore.
I find I can control my time better and ensure what I have planned for the day gets done rather than reacting to some fake emergency that the office drama drones have come up with.
A disturbing trend recently has been the use of video; when I started WFH video was very rarely used, so I have adapted to never shaving and working in shorts and a T-shirt. But for some reason along with a move from Skype to Teams, even people I had previously thought sane, balanced individuals are insisting on displaying their unshaven faces as they gaze out of the window or surf the web on the 'big' screen (not the one with the camera attached). I was finding this all a bit off putting, until I found the button in Teams that allows you to switch off the incoming video - all good now.
I started a new job during lockdown. Resource lead, so overseeing all our recruitment,resourcing etc. Lots of relationship building and problem solving and I am used to relying on face to face to face. 100% at home and so far so good but there are drawbacks. If i dont know something it can be a chore to find out who does whereas in the office it would be more obvious/shout out. Mass communication is e mail heavy, so engagement is harder to judge. Realistically i can see myself 1 or 2 days max in the office and rest home.
In the early 80s I was a designer in central London.
W1 studio in D'arbley St (Up 6 flights of stairs overlooking a brothel) and blue chip clients serviced via fax and motorcycle courier.
I do the same with email and Drive.
'tis no biggie except for the sales guys or the ones who want to milk their little positions of 'power'.
Oh, and if you work in tech and want the high speed physical link between Oxford and Cambridge then that says you have comprehensively failed at your job.
Funily enough the Agile development methodology which was designed by American graduates to keep jobs in America because you had to me close to the customer and have daily stand ups etc works really well during WFH if you adapt it slightly.
My Indian based company has been using multi-location agile development at scale for years so we have been able to adapt really well, once the hardware was at peoples homes I was very sceptical when I joined the company back in 2011 and we jokingly called it Foreign, Remote Agile - FRAGILE - but it does work. You are measured by your output rather than how well worn your seat is.
Cha****ng +1.
I've worked from home for 18+ months.. If everyone is working from home it works well but if you're the only one in a team then you miss out on all the brief conversations etc and context. Hopefully companies will do some sort of split so it's all or nothing as otherwise I can't see management biases being over turned in the short term.
I'm lucky that I have a boss who has said in the past "I don't pay you to sit at a desk for 8 hours / day" and "just because you're sat at a desk doesn't mean you're working".
Also agree training, mentoring and corporate culture all harder to install remotely.
WorldClassAccident
MemberIf I didn’t already have an office set up in the house I would be SO tempted to make a tree house in the garden and work from that
Just have to watch out for pesky squirrels 🐿
Never been keen on working from home but like it would seem many on here started a new job on the 23rd if March so induction was a few hours in a basically empty office that normally held 300.
Considering I'm new it's worked a lot better than i expected, I've been involved well and am very busy. Teams has proved a lot more useful than expected. I can see WFH being an option for some of the time going forward. I've got a couple in one team who aren't pulling their weight but most are and the other team work on different sites across the country every day so are used to not being supervised.
Probably helped that I've just moved out of manufacturing into a sector I dare not mention, that everyone hates. Ironically I'm finding my work colleagues to be much nicer and less money grabbing than those I left behind in manufacturing. Sector gas a future as well unlike manufacturing.
A lot of the problem comes from this old-School idea that if you’re really, really good at your job you’d be the perfect person to manage other people doing the same.
There's a name for that, it's called the Peter Principle. In many organisations successful employees get promoted to their level of incompetence.
I'd be quite happy to stay mostly working from home most of the time. It's easier to get into things without distractions. I wouldn't miss the 90mile round trip to the main site I work out of. Once I'm off furlough I'd still go into the or an office a couple of days a week. There are some things I need to see other people for. Plus it's closer to go to an office after a site visit than drive back home.
I switch off for all IT training, I find it just as easy to be bored in a classroom as I do on webex
We don't capture data for engagement when they're in the classroom, and some definitely pay little attention (lawyers, huh!). But we do get attention data from webexs, and some of the figures are comical. 🙂
We are actively discussing what we do when lockdown is relaxed. Our environment won’t permit 2m social distancing with everyone present and so we expect to remain WFH even beyond it being permitted.
One approach we are exploring is one day a week where each sub team is on site face to face, and one day a month where the entire team in in but with a layout focussed on distanced interaction rather than sitting at keyboards tapping away close to each other.
The office could be reconfigured to support client visits etc and we might still be able to get rid of 1/3rd of the space (and cost) at lease renewal time!
How do you go about “team building” when you work remotely? At present all the team members know each other well from the time we spent together in the office, but when will that knowledge expire?
For the cost of one months rent I could take the entire team for a week away bonding together...