Not mine, my employer is great
My mate works for an events company. He just told me about the new rules his company have announced on taking holidays
- No holidays at all during peak season (June and July)
- Max of 5 days total between May and Sep with no more than 3 consecutive days off during this period
- no holiday carry over or pay in lieu
- management can tell you when to take your holidays in quieter months
I mean..that's possibly the worst holiday arrangements I've ever heard of! The employees are fuming.
this was covered on another thread, but companies can state this. They have busy periods they need people available.
How is the sickness policy, I can see May to September being a very sickly period.
Certain industries demand certain commitments. Other jobs are available.
Its not great, but it is the events industry. Working when events happens is kind of the point of your employed existence.
For the vast majority of my working life I have either been in the military, worked in outdoor/tourism industry or in education. I'm now 53 and not once in my working life have I had any control over when my leave will be - I have always worked in an industry that told me when my days off will be. For quite a while I didn't know which day of the week would be my day off (if any) with very short notice. The upside was I got quite a lot of leave, which makes it a slightly sweeter pill to swallow.
Some people with more favourable arrangements don't always appreciate what they experience is not universal.
They did this with my previous role, supporting education, they decided onsite staff, could only take holidays in the school holiday.
Did I want to stay? **** no.
Vote with your feet, that companies going tits up, it's a real shame 🤣
How is the sickness policy
The bare minimum required by law I believe!
Other jobs are available
Absolutely this..and it's what I told him. He's pretty much on minimum wage anyway, so my advice was just find something else. He'd be far better working in Sainsbury's imo.
or a regular day off that's the same every week.
I mean..that's possibly the worst holiday arrangements I've ever heard of! The employees are fuming.
Do you know anyone who works in the USA?
Certain industries demand certain commitments
Seems unusual then that these are new rules, as per the OP.
not once in my working life have I had any control over when my leave will be
You’ve never once been able to ask for certain days off? strange, I certainly remember my brother in law who was a sergeant in RM at the time coming on holiday with us when he wanted too (Wednesday afternoon and Fridays so swemd to be optional) I’d have thought the military, when not deployed, would be able to manage absences, what with the possibility of staff being killed.
I’d have thought the military, when not deployed, would be able to manage absences, what with the possibility of staff being killed.
Sadly no. Royal Navy Fleet Arm arm didn't work like that (then - no idea now). Whole squadron/flight was either bobbing around at sea, on leave or preparing to bob around at sea.
Seems unusual then that these are new rules, as per the OP.
Industry currently on it's knees and no longer able to over staff to be able to manage nice to haves shocker. Though admittedly they will be between a rock and a hard place......pay is notoriously terrible and if you also can't afford to build in staff flexibility, retention will be crap but simultaneously barely getting enough business in to continue to operate let alone make the pay and conditions better. It's a lovely world right now.
Complete thread derailment.
My late father in law was in that mob for a full career, he loved it. Used to fix helicopters and then went on to run flight simulators at Yeovilton. Flight simulators are a great toy!
I heard many long stories (and all of them many, many times) about life there.
Meh, I worked to them rules for many years in outdoor centres. Really not that unusual in tourisity, event or similar industries.
We used to take a main holiday at Easter and October due to that for many years.
Max of 5 days total between May and Sep with no more than 3 consecutive days off during this period
- no holiday carry over or pay in lieu
This part is not acceptable - this sort of nonsense is why you should be in a union.
while companies can make restrictive rules round AL and mandate some aspects they cannot behave unreasonably. Ultimately this sort of restriction would need to be legally tested but a decent union should be able to ameliorate it
I am all for workers rights but if the workload has a seasonal element to it then some seasonal restrictions on holidays seems reasonable. As long as that's communicated clearly to new joiners and existing employees are given plenty of notice of the change then I think it's ok.
My own workload varies according to which week of the month we're in, so there's an unwritten rule about avoiding taking holidays in the busier weeks. Similarly my wife isn't allowed to take any leave in the run up to Christmas.
and existing employees are given plenty of notice of the change then I think it's ok.
Hmmmmm - that bit is legally problematic. a change to your terms and conditions
But yes - some seasonal restrictions are acceptable but it must be reasonable which has a defined legal meaning
This part is not acceptable - this sort of nonsense is why you should be in a union.
Which part - you seem to have picked up two very different aspects?
Either go down the union / collective bargaining route or walk
for knowing all your rights - youd think you know how easy that is to get round if your willing to lose a %age of staff.
Hmmmmm - that bit is legally problematic. a change to your terms and conditions
Max of 5 days total between May and Sep with no more than 3 consecutive days off during this period
- no holiday carry over or pay in lieu
This part is not acceptable - this sort of nonsense is why you should be in a union.
while companies can make restrictive rules round AL and mandate some aspects they cannot behave unreasonably. Ultimately this sort of restriction would need to be legally tested but a decent union should be able to ameliorate it
I would expect that is on top of weekends. So weekends (or two days per week off, usually together) plus an additional 5 days, with no more than three days off in one go. Thems the rules I worked to and had to enforce at busy outdoor centres for nearly 20 years...
- no holiday carry over or pay in lieu
This part is not acceptable - this sort of nonsense is why you should be in a union.
An employer can have the policy of no carry over etc (apart from exceptional circumstances, like the employee being on maternity leave). There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, and we do it (although we do start reminding people with about four months to go before the holiday period ending, that they have x number of days, and they must use them or lose them). What an employer *CANNOT* do, is refuse the employee's holiday requests, then tell them they have lost them.
.as long as he doesn't want holidays in the run up to Christmas!
Oh..they can't take time off the 2 weeks before or after Christmas either!!
Either way I'm glad I don't work in an industry like this.
As I told my mate, if you love your job otherwise then suck it up, but if you don't, just find something else equally as mundane that treats you better and gives you better benefits. It's not as if he's utilising a special set of skills to do the job meaning he can't change industry fairly easily
Meh, I worked to them rules for many years in outdoor centres. Really not that unusual in tourisity, event or similar industries.
But did you know those were the rules before taking the jobs? If they change the holidays terms after 2 years of employment I'd be more aggrieved than if I signed up to them in the first place.
What an employer *CANNOT* do, is refuse the employee's holiday requests, then tell them they have lost them.
I think the beef (other than this has just been sprung on them) is that the window fir taking holidays is only 6 months.
And given they have also introduced a ' no 2 team members can be off at any one time' rule, it's going to end up with them just being allocated holiday slots with very little choice. So they won't lose them, they'll just be told when to taken them.
My mate is (imo justifiably) now pissed he can't take a summer holiday with his kids. As are the rest of the workforce.
I think the beef (other than this has just been sprung on them) is that the window fir taking holidays is only 6 months.
I can understand why he's pissed off if it's just been sprung on them, especially as some people may have already booked summer holidays based on previous years norms.
My daughter worked for 4 years as a groom for a professional 3 day event rider (ex Olympic medalist) - the rule was no holidays between March and October when it was competition season. And she'd often work from 3am to midnight by the time they arrived back at the yard and finished unloading and sorting the horses out.
She's gone freelance now as she wanted her life back! 🙂
It's legal for UK companies to tell you when your holiday is going to be (some factories still have annual 2 weeks shutdown) Whole industries have periods when you can't book leave; Education for instance, and in Healthcare it's pretty standard both limit how many team members can be off simultaneously - like receptionists and a blanket ban on leave in the run up to Xmas/new year.
UK employers can force employees to take off remaining leave at the end of the holiday leave year so that they don't carry over or pay in lieu; neither of which are mandatory. They can't force you to take holiday if you're sick though.
If they are changing the rules/policy, there should've been a consultation period though.
My mate is (imo justifiably) now pissed he can't take a summer holiday with his kids. As are the rest of the workforce.
I doubt anyone working in events is so well paid or qualified to make it difficult for them to find a different job that suits the lifestyle they want. The events company will either fill the gap with people who are more desperate for work or end up improving its practices to attract/retain staff.
Hmmmmm - that bit is legally problematic. a change to your terms and conditions
Depending how the contract is worded it potentially isn't. Many contracts would say "X days to be taken in accordance with the holiday policy" or "to be taken at times agreed by the company". A policy is not a contractual term and subject to change. If its been in place a very long time it may be argued to be custom and practice, but its unlikely the "old policy" was - take whenever you want.
This part is not acceptable - this sort of nonsense is why you should be in a union.
Intrigued what you think the union's negotiating position would be? If you don't give us what we want we will go on strike? Then what happens - either the event is cancelled and staff are made redundant or the event host appoints a new subcontractor. The realities of the private sector, especially fairly replaceable staff / displaceable service industries, is that unions don't have huge collective bargaining power.
Depending how the contract is worded it potentially isn't. Many contracts would say "X days to be taken in accordance with the holiday policy" or "to be taken at times agreed by the company". A policy is not a contractual term and subject to change. If its been in place a very long time it may be argued to be custom and practice, but its unlikely the "old policy" was - take whenever you want.
No idea what's in the contract..he and his mates all appear to think this is something 'new' that has just been dropped on them. I know they outsource their hr so I assume its all by the book
Legal or not it's not an arrangement I'd want!
That has to be the worst set of annual leave restrictions I've ever read by a country mile, with the best part of the ~5 of the 5.6 weeks minimum to be taken October to end of April, excluding mid December to mid January!
But as long as you get enough notice for enforced leave (twice the length of the leave?) and you are able to take your 5.6 weeks per year (which can include bank hols), it's a very harsh but legal set of conditions for uk employment iirc.
That has to be the worst set of annual leave restrictions I've ever read by a country mile, with the best part of the ~5 of the 5.6 weeks minimum to be taken October to end of April, excluding mid December to mid January!
But as long as you get enough notice for enforced leave (twice the length of the leave?) and you are able to take your 5.6 weeks per year (which can include bank hols), it's a very harsh but legal set of conditions for uk employment iirc.
my daughter applied for a live in hospitality type job last year which was from Easter to October school holidays, 5 days per week with rota shared the Friday night for the following week, and no holidays. They accrued the holidays and paid then at the end. I’m glad she didn’t get it!
Is the events industry really struggling? Prices for attending events seem to be crazy but most of the ones I am interested in sell out.
Is it just a case of greed at the top and flogging the workers? Look at the price of World Cup tickets as an example and the flexible pricing for Oasis tickets as another.
I think the beef (other than this has just been sprung on them) is that the window fir taking holidays is only 6 months.
Fair enough – I was explaining the legal position of carrying holiday over from one year to the next to TJ, whose immediate response in any employment question is simply "join a union".
The question of whether what the employer in the OP has the right is very different though – there should be a consultation and agreement before fundamentally changing contractual terms.
Is the events industry really struggling? Prices for attending events seem to be crazy but most of the ones I am interested in sell out.
Is it just a case of greed at the top and flogging the workers? Look at the price of World Cup tickets as an example and the flexible pricing for Oasis tickets as another.
No idea what events the OP's friend's employer tend to work in but most are way way less interesting that you are envisioning.
Think more along the lines of the rubber crumb industry's biannual trade fare or the biomedical intestinal disease preventative medicine conference. The sort of stuff a very long way down the budget essentials list and the first to jettison sending an employee to in times of tightened belts. Hence event management as an employment niche is perilous at best.
But did you know those were the rules before taking the jobs? If they change the holidays terms after 2 years of employment I'd be more aggrieved than if I signed up to them in the first place.
That is the issue though - this is a change in contract.
I was responding to the suggestion it is somehow against the law to impose this when it is common in some industries.
For those facing this, other jobs are available. Some employers need to know that people are leaving sometimes to get the idea that the new rulz are not workable..
As with a lot of things when it comes to Employment stuff, what does their employment contract say? Employers can set rules, but doesn't mean they can enforce them.
Sounds to me like they're trying to get their workforce to take shit so they can keep headcount lower.
what does their employment contract say
Also, what does the law allow applies. I haven't looked at the new workers rights legislation yet but that is going to have some effect on poor managers/employers
No idea what events the OP's friend's employer tend to work in but most are way way less interesting that you are envisioning
It's certainly not the world cup! No idea what they do tbh..think the open is one they are involved with, but I imagine that's one if the biggest
Think lots of it is corporate gigs and stuff
I suspect it may back fire on them though as folks are going to work up to the summer, then just bin it off, take a summer holiday, and start somewhere else on their return. It doesn't sound like their workforce is particularly loyal so I doubt they'd think twice leaving them in the lurch (rightly or wrongly)
I'd get your calculator out and check that there are enough working hours / days when they can take holiday to allow all staff to take their time off if restricted to only 2 people off at the same time.
Not being able to take holiday over the summer is a big negative. The way it looks like it is being handled is also a bit poor. But in my experience this isn't all that unusual. I know people in accounting/finance who are restricted and can't take holiday around the end of the financial year.
I've worked in manufacturing companies where shift patterns dictated when people could be off.
In most smaller companies there are limits as to how many people can be off at the same time. Not normally an issue for me as I don't have kids but always created challenges with everybody wanting the same school holidays off.
If they need all their staff for peak periods, what is the expectation on the company? There needs to be some balance here.
Not sure how easy it would be to find a new job. Plenty of time to look before summer though.