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Today at work (postie) I slipped in the snow, fell sideways and landed with the corner of a square planter in my ribs. It's possibly fractured but maybe just bad bruising all I know at the moment is it's quite painful and if it doesn't ease by tomorrow will probably go to A&E to get checked. Thing is, this is the start of a weeks leave and I had lots of stuff planned which I think is now going to be difficult if not impossible.
OH says get signed off and claim leave back for another time. WWSTWD?
Get it checked out at A&E; on Monday, get a fitness for work note via your GP, unless you're able to get one in hospital. Use the annual leave at a time when you're not crocked.
For reference: https://www.gov.uk/taking-sick-leave
She's correct and is expect any member of my team to do the same.
The post office likely doesn't approve but it is UK law when it comes to workplace incidents.
Will caveat that with at the same.time.i.hope you did an incident report if it's an accident on works time.
Don't bother your GP... You can self certify for the week..
DrP
Sue the PO for not providing a safe working environment...
Get it checked out at A&E
heheh..have you been to an A&E recently?
What DrP said.. self certify for a week, and only go to A&E if it's critical.
Yes, I have. I'd personally use a walk in centre if it was me, but appreciate that might not be an option for the OP.
The post office likely doesn’t approve but it is UK law when it comes to workplace incidents.
Would be the same if not a workplace incident - if you're ill, you take sick leave. Fact you had leave booked is irrelevant - just cancel it.
Even if A&E was running like clockwork I'd not bother goign to A&E. The treatment for bruised/cracked/broken ribs is all the same - nothing, so no point in diagnosing (which is why you generally don't get x-rayed for rib stuff).
Can A&E do anything for either cracked or bruised ribs, beyond offering sympathy?
Cheers all! I had forgotten about self certification so thanks for the reminder @DrP . Thanks for the link @hightensionline . Yeah, not in a rush to go to A&E. I came off the bike last april and sat in A&E for most of an evening in agony until the tannoy said it would be another six hours to get seen. I got the OH to take me home for the night and went back the next day and ended up staying in for four days on morphine. That time was three double fractured ribs and a punctured lung Ouch! It's definately not as bad this time.
Pro tip.
Counter intuitively lie ON the cracked side. So much comfier.
@oldnpastit Sympathy and strong painkillers and confirmation of injury. And scans and obs for me last time with six months of follow up scans.
Surely you inform your boss and put in a Personal Incident Notification (or Post Office equivalent) as it's work related accident and then self-cert and cancel the leave?
another +1 to go sick and arrange leave for another time. I honestly couldn't believe that was the rules, but when I had a week off, fell ill towards the end of it, missed going back to work for a day or so after the week off and did my sickness form, I filled it in truthfully and said I'd been ill sick since the Thursday. And HR then came back and said that only M-W therefore counted as holiday and the rest was returned to me.
Only word of caution is if you have one of those workplaces* that actively manages sickness absences and where claiming might start to trigger interventions...
* aka shit workplaces
Can A&E do anything for either cracked or bruised ribs, beyond offering sympathy?
Basicaly @Jordan said... it's worth getting checked out and X-rayed just in case it's bad, but it will probably just be rest for a few weeks with some strong pain killers.
I've had bruised/cracked ribs before and there's not much to be done about it... it's biblicaly painful if you laugh or sneeze though, so you have that to look forward to. When I cracked my ribs, just getting out of bed and putting my socks on was a world of pain.
Cancel the leave and put in the sick.
A few days into a holiday last summer the wife got COVID and knowing I would shortly test positive too we packed up, drove home and then with a positive test I cancelled the remaining week and half of leave and went sick whilst isolating.
Rebooked the holiday a month later when I could actually holiday.
To flip it the other way, holiday leave is not for suffering/recovering from illness.
Only word of caution is if you have one of those workplaces* that actively manages sickness absences and where claiming might start to trigger interventions…
Let them. Genuine injury especially one incurred on work hours will be wonderfully easy to get them to tie them selves in knots over. Especially if your part of the union.....
But is contingent on you doing the paperwork correctly highlighting it was a work related injury. Hence you need to fill out the accident report form or equivalent.
I will be phoning the manager on monday morning to report the accident, as is common in most delivery offices the manager is long gone when posties return from delivery, I told a few of my collegues though. I asked for the accident book a few years ago and was told we don't have one.
BTW. it is Royal Mail not PO, a common confusion. Many people ask me if I have stamps for sale or how much it will cost to post such and such and don't understand why I don't/can't tell them.
Isn't there a manager in on Sundays now, with some posties doing Sunday parcel deliveries? Ring or go to depot in person if possible.
Sounds like it could be RIDDOR as well so definitely report it and take sick leave, if you take it as leave they may not report it.
PO may say you didn't carry out a risk assessment of the delivery so be wary of management stance.
Book sick and take your holiday later.
@n0b0dy0ftheg0at tbh we only see our manager one or two days/week. As part of RM cost cutting they shed a lot of office managers and now have one manager covering more than one office. We have a guy who is actually just another postie who fills a role called manager support. He will probably be in tomorrow as he "likes" to work seven days a week. I might text him, see if he's working.
Nothing to add other than cracked ribs are the worst pain I’ve ever been in. Heal quickly 🤞
Pray you don’t get a cough
Just bruised ribs are painful enough. Hope you get time off to recover and can take your leave later
FYI for readers of the thread:
Post Office - state owned enterprise
Royal Mail - a private company providing mail and parcel services. Current provider of the 'universal service'. Not owned by the state
My possibly dodgy workplace requires doctor's note in this circumstance ie won't accept self certification
Some MIU have x-ray (eg Wharfedale Hospital in Otley) - that's where I'd go if I was worried.
Edit - seems to be called an Urgent Treatment Centre now but covers the same sort of stuff..
The centre provides treatment for minor injuries and illnesses that are urgent but not life or limb threatening. If you need medical help but you know it’s not an emergency then the urgent treatment centre might be the best place for you.
For example:
Cuts and grazes
Sprains and strains
Simple broken bones (if your bone is sticking out or there’s a serious wound then this should be seen at A&E)
Wound and wound infections
Minor burns and scalds
Minor head injuries
Insect and animal bites
Minor eye injuries
Minor back injuries
Emergency contraception
Skin infections/rashes/allergic reactions
Urine infections
Raised temperature/fever
https://www.leedsth.nhs.uk/a-z-of-services/urgent-treatment-centres/
If it's less than 7 days then you can self certificate; over 7 days then an employer will usually require a fit note signed by either a GP or hospital doctor, a registered nurse, an occupational therapist, a pharmacist or a physiotherapist. With the OP stating that he is supposed to be starting a week off, I assumed that's 7 days until back in work, therfore a fit note must be provided as per employment regulations.
It's worth noting that for some employees, the fit note is a legal document that allows them to claim SSP from the state if their earnings are lower than the threshold for the employer to pay it, so it becomes vital to get one. Not everyone is salaried, and not everyone is full-time.
If I was not due to be at work today while feeling ill so called in sick tomorrow and I felt ok to return to work 20th March, that's 7 sick days, covered by self certification?
Or would it just be 6 sick days if I informed work on Saturday I was ok to return for next scheduled shift on Monday 20th?
Can employers get funny about self cert for what should have been a holiday week? Only ever happened to me once, right at start of Covid (better half had continuous cough), no probs getting hol week back.
^ I think this covers me. @olddog we have a fairly local UTC at Northallerton. That is where I went last year with my ribs. They X-rayed me then ambulanced me to Middlesbrough.
If it's 7 days or less, then you can self-certificate.
When it's 7 days (or likely more), and involving leave in that time, I'd be getting a fit note.
I've never injured my ribs, so no idea how likely it would be a postie could work after 7 days rest, I suspect not unless quite minor bruising! In which case, longer than 7 days sick, needs sick note from day 8.
If RM demand a sick note to get leave cancelled, is it reasonable for them to cover cost of sick note (~£25?) for sick leave during first 7 days?
No idea if it would be reasonable for RM to request postie do some work indoors instead of delivery.
Hopefully OP has spoken to someone in charge today, in hindsight I'd have left a message on answering machine ASAP after the accident happened on delivery, if nobody responsible was in office.
If it's less than 7 days, then there may be a charge for the fit note, but we're talking about the OP's situation; there won't be a charge as its over 7 days. I'm not a healthcare professional, hence why I'd recommend getting any injury checked out if you're unsure - both for the obvious reasons of pain relief or complications/missed injuries, and because if it's going to be over 7 days you've got the required paperwork to explain why you're off work.
My possibly dodgy workplace requires doctor’s note in this circumstance ie won’t accept self certification
Pretty sure your workplace is on thin ice there.
OH says get signed off and claim leave back for another time. WWSTWD?
Company policy where I work is if you're sick when on leave then it takes precedence and you should cancel your leave. Even if your company policy isn't the same as ours I'd expect that you have one that you can check.
Only word of caution is if you have one of those workplaces* that actively manages sickness absences and where claiming might start to trigger interventions…
"Interventions" is doing some heavy lifting here. It's fairly commonplace for a HR policy to say something like three periods of absence in a rolling 12 months requires an interview but (in our place at least) there's a degree of arse-covering rather than it being a disciplinary. If the reason you're off is work-related stress that they've done nothing about, they could be in the shit.
I triggered ours once, I took a couple of days off for a cold, felt better and went back to work for a day midweek, then relapsed and was off again. Two separate periods of absence right there, one more sick day in the next or previous 12 months and I've hit the threshold, on paper I'd have been better off skiving rather than going back in. I had a HR interview, said "I had a rotten cold," they went "right you are then" and that was that.
I asked for the accident book a few years ago and was told we don’t have one.
Is that legal?
My possibly dodgy workplace requires doctor’s note in this circumstance ie won’t accept self certification
Is that legal?
I asked for the accident book a few years ago and was told we don’t have one.
Is that legal?
If there is no method of recording accidents e.g. an accident book the the company will find it very difficult to demonstrate compliance with regulation 12 of RIDDOR.
3 day absences resulting from a work related accident must be recorded.
7 day absences resulting from a work related accident must be reported.
Broken bones (other than fingers and toes) must be reported.
Cheers, I did wonder. I couldn't get a plaster out of the first-aid kit for a nicked finger without an accident book entry.
Pretty sure your workplace is on thin ice there.
It wouldn't surprise me.
Does anyone know where the official, legal rules around self-certification are?
My possibly dodgy workplace requires doctor’s note in this circumstance ie won’t accept self certification
Nope you're not in to much pain OP.
Interesting side discussion though. I'm fairly sure at our place that if you go sick on annual leave you need a doctors note to prove it and it still remains managers discretion whether you get the A/L credited back and replaced with sick leave.
What's to stop an employee booking a weeks leave, then self certifying as sick for the week and getting the week credited back?
By the way, fit notes are not in the purview of a & e, just in case anyone’s going to sit and wait for a few hours to try to obtain one. Cheers!
Only other thing to add (as someone who's either broken ribs + torn intercostal muscles a couple of times - both very unpleasant.
Don't suppress coughing. Whilst it hurts LF, stopping coughing leads to cack staying in your lungs and airways... and can lead to pneumonia.
I would highly recommend a Caribbean rum cask finished bottle of Balvennie to ease the pain.
Nothing about the legalities
Find a lovely cushion. Cherish it. Hold it tight if yiu need to cough or sneeze
Phil_H
Full Member
I asked for the accident book a few years ago and was told we don’t have one.Is that legal?
If there is no method of recording accidents e.g. an accident book the the company will find it very difficult to demonstrate compliance with regulation 12 of RIDDOR.
3 day absences resulting from a work related accident must be recorded.
7 day absences resulting from a work related accident must be reported.
Broken bones (other than fingers and toes) must be reported.
It requires confirmation from a Doctor that bones are broken for RIDDOR reportables.
Yeah, but everyone's going to tell you not to go to A&E and waste time getting it checked out, and that a Doctor starting the process off won't help get a fit note from a GP a few days later. Or that a GP hasn't got the time anyway...
Anyways, OP asked about a specific issue; can I claim leave back if I'm unfit to work? Yes, providing you can provide proof later on, if necessary. Verbal/self certification might not be nearly enough to get the week back in lots of workplaces that (well within their rights) require a fit note for 7 days+ sickness, or if there's repeated absence linked to that for less than 7 days. The holiday year may be Jan-Dec, so a long memory might be required. Hence the fit note.
It's not always down to the employer/company to follow the procedures put in place: employees also have a duty to themselves to follow the guidance, often for their own advantage down the road when it comes to proving why a period of absence occured.
What’s to stop an employee booking a weeks leave, then self certifying as sick for the week and getting the week credited back?
That is a managers job, to recognise when people are pulling a fast one. Part of being a manager. Because 99% of staff DONT or WONT do that.
Not wimping out and putting a 'policy' in place which ruins it for the 99% in order to catch the 1%.
OP - Self cert of work for a week, claim the leave back.
Its what any decent company would have you do.
It requires confirmation from a Doctor that bones are broken for RIDDOR reportables.
anything over 3 days caused at work should be recorded not reported.
anything over 7 days caused at work becomes reportable -
how ever the specific reportables are reportable from the start - that includes broken bones(but not fingers thumbs and toes - which i always found wierd)
Any incident that results in injury (hospitalised) on site involving a member of the public not working on site is reportable straight away also.
Its highly unlikely that you dont have an accident book - what is likely that there are any entrys in it as they dont want the paperwork to admit anyone was hurt at work .
What’s to stop an employee booking a weeks leave, then self certifying as sick for the week and getting the week credited back?
The same thing that's stopping them from pulling a sickie generally. If they're going to cheat then why bother booking the leave in the first place?
Update. Texted manager this morning to let him know what happened and that I was self certifying, got no reply. I didn't follow up as I was going to A&E to find out more. Spent all afternoon in A&E waiting to be seen. They checked me over and sounded my chest. Said it could be fractured or just badly bruised but they wouldn't x-ray unless suspected complications as it was an unnecessary dose of radiation when it wouldn't make any diference to outcome.
I can confirm it hurts like hell when coughing or sneezing or sitting with it against backrest or doing anything that engages the muscles on that side.