[Closed] Wood burners, the new diesel. New Sciencetist as bad as the Daily Wail

So as with nearly all the discusions on here there are the people with polar opposite views and somewhere in the middle common sense compromises.

I do a lot of running this time year, the area is often described as semi rural but its rapidly being built up so theres lots of wood burners about and the acrid taste of air around those houses is really noticable and not something that should be encouraged. In other areas with limited alternitive options it would be more acceptable.

Chip boilers, where fuel is continuously added and everything is controlled by the boiler bar the user setting a desired temperature on a thermostat, are much cleaner. No user interference shutting things down, a more uniform fuel by size and moisture content and the continuous feed probably helps tackle the worst particle creation phases of a log burn cycle ( light off before there is sufficient heat to burn clean, and end burn of the cooling coals when again heat is insufficient).
They don't replace a wood burner in the lounge of a middle class suburban semi though unfortunately, they don't have the same ambiance, although smug factor may be quite high.

I'll take pollution serious when the government do.
Too many unnecessary uses of fossil fuels.
Motor racing ( Car, motorbike, boat)
Travel to and from sporting events (Football, horse racing, )
Air travel
Cruise ships
Lack of public transport, I don't live in a city, it's an absolute joke, I start work at six thirty A.M. first bus.. nine A.M.
It's all used as a cash cow by the Government.
So when the Powers that be wise up I will. Until then I'll use my multi fuel stove.

[i]I went through £200 of logs in a month.[/i]

😯 I use my stove every evening from about 5pm, and open the vents to let it burn out fast about 10pm.

£200 (of well seasoned hardwood) would keep us warm for 1.5 winters!

I can well believe it has an overall impact on air pollution, however there is a trade-off in that I'm not using fossil fuel as my primary heating.

I don't think it's a nuisance to my neighbours, the only time I catch a whiff or can see smoke is when the paper and kindling is going up.

Poor use of stoves must be rife; poorly seasoned wood, running the stove wrong (vents open and fast burning with lots of flame, or vents closed with sooty interior) seems very common. If you are using it right, the firebricks should be clean (beige colour) and not coated in soot, and a relaxed lazy flame with plenty of heat output.

Too many unnecessary uses of fossil fuels.
Motor racing ( Car, motorbike, boat)
Travel to and from sporting events (Football, horse racing, )
Air travel
Cruise ships

What a lovely World you want to live in!

No overseas holidays?
No sporting days out?

Do you want to be Winston Smith?

[quote=spooky_b329 ]I went through £200 of logs in a month.
I use my stove every evening from about 5pm, and open the vents to let it burn out fast about 10pm.

Stovax 9kw stove, I was attempting to use it as an alternative to central heating. So in feb 2012 I lit it every morning at 6:30, kitchen warm by 7. Shovelled logs in until 9:30 ish. Most rooms got above 14c apart from bathroom.
I work at home so then by 12 I was bloody freezing and had to get the thing going again, continuous logs until about 8:30pm. About 11 hrs a day of stove on full blast.
A load of logs (nissan pick up full) was 75 quid, I had 2 loads and used them in about 3 weeks, then topped up with another load before I decided it was crap and went back to using my antiquated valiant boiler.

[quote=neilnevill ]User behaviour is so important. Compare core's experience to 5plusn8.
I can see an arguement that all stoves should be banned as policing/enforcing/teaching good practice is so difficult.

In fact I am pretty sure I ran mine the same as core, flat out, its just it took 40 mins to really get going and up to that point it smokes and when you decided to stop feeding it and it burned up the last log it started smoking again for 40 mins. With two "lights" a day the it is 4 x 40 mins a day of smoking.

"What a lovely World you want to live in!
No overseas holidays?
No sporting days out?
Do you want to be Winston Smith? "

Not at all, but why should I be worried about my burner when The Powers That Be aren't worried about the big picture.
"Sorry you can't stay warm, but thousands can go and watch people drive aimlessly round and round".

"Sorry you can't stay warm, but thousands can go and watch people drive aimlessly round and round".

Who said you can't stay warm?

I'm not sure what you think the "Powers That Be" should be doing?

What is the "Big Picture"?

Do you want a ban on cruise ships and motor racing or not?

I mean there are now exhaust emissions restrictions on Main Battle Tanks. Now that is madness.

The issue that should be highlighted is the proliferation of wood burners in homes that do not need them or more importantly know how to use them responsibly.
Burners are seen by some as a must have a fashion accessory for their suburban home. They should only be used responsibly where there is no viable cleaner alternative, especially if you live in an area of high population.
Maybe it's time to for education rather than further legislation?

I'm into motorsport, I have to say I'm surprised that there hasn't been more pressure on us already as everyday fossil fuel usage gets so much hammer.

Seems odd on the face of it that ICE sizes are being reduced massively and made much more efficient, even being phased out, but we can tear around all weekend doing 5mpg racing and rallying.

However, all of that fuel is taxed just the same, any road legal competition vehicle (providing it's not old enough to be exempt) will be paying the relevant RFL despite the fact they might only do a few hundred miles a year, and ultimately motorsport accounts for a tiny percentage of CO2 emissions and fuel usage in the bigger picture.

On top of that, in the UK at least, motorsport is BIG business, we're the best in the world at it, so wipe out motorsport, and you wipe tens of thousands of jobs out at the same time. An awful lot of our motorsport industry is also exporting in a big way. If you looked at F1 and changed the cars to full hybrid or electric, for one, it'd be crap, but 2, the CO2 emissions from the sport as a whole would barely change, if at all, might even increase due to additional processes in production. The vast majority of the energy used and carbon emitted by the sport as a whole is in everything other than the cars actually driving around.

Where do you all stand on firepits then?

Burners are seen by some as a must have a fashion accessory for their suburban home. They should only be used responsibly where there is no viable cleaner alternative, especially if you live in an area of high population.

Why stop at woodburners?

I live in a village about 2 miles from a train station which is used by commuters to London. When I used to use it, I would cycle, mainly because it saved the £5 a day parking charge but also because it was actually quicker on some days.

Why not prevent anyone parking at the station unless they can show they have no other viable alternative? I mean if you are able bodied and live within 3 miles of the station, you should be forced to cycle or use public transport.

In fact, lets ban car ownership, unless you can justify it and actually "need" a car.

[quote=gobuchul ]lets ban car ownership, unless you can justify it and actually "need" a car.

I mentioned earlier that I have a feeling this is about change management, I think everyone thinks this is a good idea in the long run.
It is evident that we cannot achieve this in one fell swoop.

I have a wood burner and campaign on air quality issues for my job. So I am sad. I think the New Scientist article wasn't sensational - it provided particulate emission data for a new generation stove:

[i]In the “smokeless” fumes coming from the chimney of a house with a modern “eco-friendly” wood burner, Kåre Press-Kristensen of the Danish Ecological Council has measured 500,000 microscopic particles per cubic centimetre. The same equipment finds fewer than 1000 particles per cm3 in the exhaust fumes of a modern truck. The wood stove was certified as meeting Nordic Swan Ecolabel emission standards, which are stricter than the ones stoves in the UK have to meet[/i]

As well as looking at levels of wood consumption and particulate emissions as a whole.

Obviously there is going to be less impact in rural locations as there are fewer people to breathe in the smoke but this is not good. I can really see that in urban centres these levels are going to undo all the work on vehicle emissions.

I currently burn compressed sawdust from a local furniture maker which is dry and burns well, so I'd argue that the CO2 benefits are better than suggested by the article as it's a by-product. I'm up a hill on the outskirts of a village. I'll be keeping the wood burner installed in case of the apocalypse but thinking about how to reduce use in future.

Simple.

Ban their use by people with beards.

Where do you all stand on firepits then?

A reasonable distance away, I would have thought

Obviously there is going to be less impact in rural locations as there are fewer people to breathe in the smoke but this is not good. I can really see that in urban centres these levels are going to undo all the work on vehicle emissions.

Around 400 employees where I work, and I can't think of a single car share that I know of. Until this changes, and I have no reason the think that this situation isn't repeated all over the country, the emissions will always be an issue.

Coal is releasing CO2 which has been in storage for millions of years and which can't readily be re-absorbed.

That's not really the point - in that respect gas is just as bad as coal.

No it isn't. Gas produces around half the CO2 per unit of energy produced.

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=73&t=11

Coal is releasing CO2 which has been in storage for millions of years and which can't readily be re-absorbed.

I don't understand what this means, can one source type of CO2 be more readily absorbed than another? Isn't CO2 just CO2?

5plusn8, I wonder how big your splits were and if they were properly dry. I have a defra approved stovax, smaller though, and it kicks out a fair heat so I'm thinking your fuel may have been too wet if you got little warmth from a 9 kW stove, plus I don't have the smoke issue you describe. Each install is different though.

I still think NS and ignored some pertinent info. Could we consider the emissions from November 5th and it's lead up, Divali, New year, and all those green garden waste bonfires that the council's seem to encourage now as they charge so much to collect it.

I understand using my stove causes some pollution but I balance that in my mind against a carbon saving globally and know I'm burning arb waste which would otherwise either end up being transported to the Drax power station and hence using diesel to get it there, or it would be burnt in a bonfire wasting the energy and smoking a lot more.

[quote=neilnevill ]5plusn8, I wonder how big your splits were and if they were properly dry.

I guess both are possible. I'm not saying the stove wasn't warm, it was lovely, but to keep it burning well, red and no smoke, it needed to be fed at a fair old lick.

5plusn8, I wonder how big your splits were and if they were properly dry. I have a defra approved stovax, smaller though, and it kicks out a fair heat so I'm thinking your fuel may have been too wet if you got little warmth from a 9 kW stove, plus I don't have the smoke issue you describe. Each install is different though.

I was wondering this too as if i started my stove at 6.30 and filled it with logs till 9.30 ... itd still be flinging out heat at mid day. 8kw stove with dry logs. - mines gets dried for a year regardless of what the log seller tells me they are...they never are (have my own moisture meter)

Buying to burn is the only time kiln dried logs shoudl be used - not as a main heating source

[quote=trail_rat ]
I was wondering this too as if i started my stove at 6.30 and filled it with logs till 9.30 ... itd still be flinging out heat at mid day. 8kw stove with dry logs. - mines gets dried for a year regardless of what the log seller tells me they are...they never are (have my own moisture meter)
Buying to burn is the only time kiln dried logs shoudl be used - not as a main heating source

Big house, 3 floors, good insulation though. You have me wondering if my ignorance has made this worse though.
I agree about buying, and as main heat source. I think it was a bit of romanticism on my part, when I was a kid my Dad got free logs, farm trailer loads. When I saw what I got for 75 quid I was a little disappointed.

I don't understand what this means, can one source type of CO2 be more readily absorbed than another? Isn't CO2 just CO2?

It was poorly worded. I assume he means the CO2 from coal (or gas) can't be sequestered again I.e. Returned to an effectively inert pool on millennial timescales.

[quote=zokes ]I don't understand what this means, can one source type of CO2 be more readily absorbed than another? Isn't CO2 just CO2?
It was poorly worded. I assume he means the CO2 from coal (or gas) can't be sequestered again I.e. Returned to an effectively inert pool on millennial timescales.

Either I still don't get it or you are saying that CO2 from any source can't be sequestered again?

I mean there are now exhaust emissions restrictions on Main Battle Tanks. Now that is madness.

I mean there are now exhaust emissions restrictions on Main Battle Tanks. Now that is madness.

Maybe in time of war it is madness, but in peacetime a very good idea.

Well it's not is it.

The exhaust emissions from a few hundred tanks produce a negligible amount of CO2 compared to what their design and building does. As there is always some loss of performance and efficiency to reduce the emissions it would make far more sense to build and operate the most efficient machine to give it the best chance when it is really needed.

Worrying about what comes out of the exhaust of a tank, sort of misses teh point of what it is built to do.

Either I still don't get it or you are saying that CO2 from any source can't be sequestered again?

Sort of....

Basically, if you plant a tree to offset fossil CO2, it would only really count as equivalent sequestration if you could guarantee the carbon captured by the tree would stay out of the atmosphere on a similar timescale as the coal/gas would have naturally, which obviously we can't. Certainly some national policies only count C sequestration if the C has a 'permanence' of at least a century, which is perhaps naively considered long enough a deferral for us to figure out how to deal with it properly.

Ahh I see. Thanks. Interesting.
So does that mean that the idea that log burners are "carbon neutral" if you replant the equivalent of what you burn is a bit dodgy too then?

Basically, if you plant a tree to offset fossil CO2, it would only really count as equivalent sequestration if you could guarantee the carbon captured by the tree would stay out of the atmosphere on a similar timescale as the coal/gas would have naturally, which obviously we can't.

NB, that's only the the CO2 issue not the pollution/smell issue people are complaining about in built up areas.

There is no doubt if buying wood it's an expensive fuel, approaching cost of oil or LPG. Or perhaps it's better to word that as, mains gas is ludicrously cheap.

The thing that the government still doesn't do enough to my mind, is reduce the need, instead it tries to make the consumption clean. Let's see more public transport and better home insulation. Although these still don't tackle the desire for a 'cosy' ambience to a lounge.

So when the Powers that be wise up I will. Until then I'll use my multi fuel stove.

Don't forget the starving children in Africa - keep making smoke until they're all fed properly.

Dual fuel stove here, we're in rural Wales and not on the gas mains, I have kerosene central heating but when it's cold and wet up here we supplement with the stove.

Don't get the cost thing, we had a truck load of wood delivered in October that will last until spring now, it was £150, far cheaper than a kerosene refill which we do twice a year.

The heat is a lovely dry heat, it burns through the night and warms the upstairs too, never noticed any smoke in the house but outside you can see smoke from the chimney.

Also used coal late last year out of curiosity, it was a slower burn and gave off tremendous heat, if I can source a cheap bulk delivery it will probably be cheaper than burning wood.

It has become a fashion thing, two of my friends who live in new build houses have had stoves installed because they look nice, their houses are centrally heated and well insulated to current standards, mine is 200 years old and made of stones and mud! Some people genuinely need the extra heat a stove gives and for others it's a 'pretty' addition to their faux country house.

If people want to crack down on stove use target the urban hipster set first.

Round our way, pikeys have started illegally logging local woods to sell cheap to urban hipsters.

So does that mean that the idea that log burners are "carbon neutral" if you replant the equivalent of what you burn is a bit dodgy too then?

That's where you start getting into hazy ground. If you exclude any fossil energy used to get the wood from a forest to a burnable condition by your stove then, if it was replaced with a similar or longer-lived species then yes, you'd probably be close. There are some very interesting (if you're a soil scientist nerd like me) feedbacks that go on in the soil when you chop down and replant trees that might mean more stabilised C in the soil is lost, which would definitely count against C neutrality. If the wood was fertilised, then the cost of that fertiliser in terms of fossil energy also needs to be considered.

So in a nutshell, if your wood is grown in a fertilised, intensive plantation a long way from where you need is and is kiln dried along the way then I'd suggest you'd be on pretty shakey ground to call it C neutral. The shocking thing is of course that when you consider all aspects of just about any human action to generate energy, very little is.

If coal is left in the ground it stays as coal. If wood is left on the floor, it rots, releasing its CO2. Particulates is a different matter though.

The amount of wood left rotting after logging ops round my way due to FC refusal to allow anybody to pick up is scandalous.

The amount of wood left rotting after logging ops round my way due to FC refusal to allow anybody to pick up is scandalous.

But that rotting wood is helping to protect the soil, building its organic matter and returning nutrients. It also forms a habitat for a huge array of invertebrates which in turn are food for birds and small mammals. The FC have actually put a fair amount of research into management of residues over the years, including funding a friend of mine's PhD on the topic 😉

The amount of wood left rotting after logging ops round my way due to FC refusal to allow anybody to pick up is [s]scandalous[/s] very good for wildlife.

I get the full impact of cutting, processing etc must be considered, importing cheap kiln dried eastern European wood is a travesty. Burn a local product and it could be better, burn a local waste product (arb waste) it could be very good?

[quote=zokes ]The shocking thing is of course that when you consider all aspects of just about any human action to generate energy, very little is.

Yeah it is a tough problem.

Zones/Nick - no, its more like the forestry vehicles ploughing through the trees they don't want (silver birch) leaving them smashed in a foot deep tangled carpet, to get to the prize trees they want. It's an utter mess.

The shocking thing is of course that when you consider all aspects of just about any human action to generate energy, very little is.

At the moment it all forms of energy generation are not carbon neutral.

I guess it may be possible in the future but not currently.

What we really need to do is reduce our consumption. A lot of things have got more efficient be we have a lot more of them and they are bigger.

Combustion engines produce a lot more power with less fuel and cleaner emissions but our cards are heavier and more luxurious than ever before.

Look at the size of our fridge, TV's, washing machines.

How many boxes of electronics do we have?

We have LED bulbs so now we have loads of lights. When I was a lad, the living room was the only room that wasn't lit by a single 60w bulb! (Except the kitchen which had a tube. :-))

I am typing this at my workstation which has 2 flat panel monitors! It's madness really.

Who said you can't stay warm?
I'm not sure what you think the "Powers That Be" should be doing?
What is the "Big Picture"?
Do you want a ban on cruise ships and motor racing or not?
I mean there are now exhaust emissions restrictions on Main Battle Tanks. Now that is madness

Experience of running pellet boilers and supplying timber for chip at work suggests that these sort of boilers have a cost equivalent to oil, but this is obscured by RHI payments. RHI payments also require accredited timber now, which will help improve the quality and consistency of the burn. As we can sell timber that is FSC accredited we are in a good position as we fulfil the chain of custody for chip producers. This also means we leave 18% wood on site as habitat/dead.

The processing of chip is far from 'green', hence the cost. Batch boilers are greener in that they require less processing, but then the owner has to get their hands dirty tending it once each day. Shocking.

The flattened silver birch would probably never stayed up once exposed, it may have even blown over after being in the blocks protection.

Carbon sequestration is an accounting dark art. For most species, the optimum take up of CO2 is in the 10-50 year span where growth is most rapid. The best way to then lock this carbon is to use it in construction or furniture or just making stuff where that carbon can be locked away for decades before burning.

If anyone wants to find me in a mid Wales pub, I could go on for ages about this sort of stuff.

BTW, I have a wood burner due to being well over my head in free firewood, despite having a well insulated house with mains gas.