Think you've got it just about spot on there a_a. Visser maybe an option on the wing?

Bugger me - I agree with a_a! That looks like the best lions team on the basis of the last few weeks.

No. It wasn't.

It really wasn't. England were hanging on at best for the first 60 minutes, and got left in the dust thereafter.

If Tualagi had managed to use his hands as opposed to his face to take that pass early on it might have been very different with a probable try on the board. As it was, that was probably England's best chance, and it was well and truly thrown away - they weren't given another.

What a game! Well done to Wales - really well deserved. I'm exhausted!

ESPN classic is having an England vs Wales-Athon!
Crikey, Walsh has hated England for a looooooong time.

[b]The bloke shouldn't be a referee. Simple as that. Was it Justin Marshall whom he admitted hating so much that he would penalise his team no matter what?

This was last week:

That Mike Phillips is such a polite young man as he helps show Cole how to retreat 10 again 😉

[img] [/img]

Here AW Jones takes a more direct approach with Ashton
[img] [/img]

checky 😀

[img] [/img]

Love that and the gimp looks to Walsh for a penalty, he really is a busted flush. Did nothing yesterday at all.

more chat here about how crap England were than how good Wales were... no surprises there.
you seem to hate England more than you love your own country.

Brakes...Think of how annoying Jiffy is....Now think of him pointing directly at you....and laughing.....

You are aware that the majority of people discussing how crap England were are English? Now back under your rock you lurking tube. BTW they were crap.

A-A; Hogg was playing with a shoulder stinger sustained in warm up, can we still have him as a token Scot?

Now back under your rock you lurking tube

that's just rude mate.

Sorry petal; a peace offering;

[IMG] [/IMG]

Duckman, I thought you were a scot?

Let them have theirs moment of glory Brakes. The celts can't let our superior feudal system of the past go, and the rest are still sore from the colonial years. Then theirs some that judge a whole nation by an individuals actions.

The intelligent ones will realise actually most English are just normal blokes who are a laugh to have a pint and a chat with.

Wrecker; Wife is Welsh.

The celts can't let our superior feudal system go

The intelligent ones will realise actually most English are just normal blokes who are a laugh to have a pint and a chat with.

Agreed,and this thread has been an oasis from the way STW is going, but I exclude brakes,as he kind of has previous.

Apparently A-A is going out tonight to celebrate,and got a spray tan in the colour of magnificent Gav to remind people the Welsh team could still be improved.

A-A
[IMG] [/IMG]

Phwoarrrr he is a looker ain't he 😉

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21822379

Beeb's tries of the tournament.

Fofana's gets my vote.

Also, can we have a caption contest? What is everyone's favourite swallow diving, tackle shirking, stampy waste of space saying here?
[img] [/img]

Cian Healy's first, Fofana's a close second.
The rest will fade from memory, but that Zebo footwork will always be a classic moment.

[i]What is everyone's favourite swallow diving, tackle shirking, stampy waste of space saying here?[/i]

"I can't believe I got in the team again!"

(Well that's what I was saying anyway.

the whole of cuthberts second try from the Faletau sidestepping three defenders to Warburtons pick and drive and Tipurics dummy and offload was a very good try.

"I am not Dylan Hartleys brother!"

Irish try for me. Brilliant sequence.

"so what do I do when they run at me? "

"I don't need you lot..."

Well done to Wales, greatperformance by a team that found confidence through the six nations, on the day the best side won.
A lot of twaddle about england not turning up, they had an excellent first half with 14 men and a decent second half with 13.5.
Ashton was cited as a liabilty and was his tackling was dire, look at his feet when cuthbert went through, terribly set and all over the place.
Croft played well for 30 mins and faded badly.
The welsh back row was outstanding BUT played Walsh brilliant Warburton "Sorry Sir explain what i did wrong" sorry did not undertand...oh dragging...okay will alter. This sequence set an already favouring ref Walsh t o think okay the welsh are listening and english are not.....case in point was the scrum when Mauler was subsitiuted Vinypulo....Welsh aka Jones saying look cannot get into position. Briliant from the Welsh, great pyschology on the ref.
Secondly tactically playing Goode exposed two elements a) lack of creativity on attack (the new Jason Robinson step froward please) and the idea of 2 No 10's as it draws the Wings in bnarrowing the field allowing forCuthbert to stay wide and for Brown to be exposed.
Brown had a splendid game for England.
The result shows exactly where Englnad are............improving and developing..........Lancaster took over and has made huge changes from the debacle of World Cup, His challenges are to get creatvity in the side, we are one dimensional. Twelvetrees is a given and possibly Burns will see more starts. Forwards look good and Stefan Armitage may have been a starter if selected.
IT is the end of the road one hopes for
Ashton
Haskell

and possibly Hartley. D care

Great tournaments for

Robshaw but he will not be lions first pick, tipuric and warburton.
Barrit
Tom Youngs who will improve in all elemnents
Vinypulo
Farrell

England are aimoing for 2015...all else will be irrevelant......they will want to peak for that tournamnet.

Well done Wales desrved the title

Varndell, you are a bit optimistic..

I am a simple man, and to me England lost this game in a simple way, by not doing something that they failed to do throughout the tournament, apart from maybe the first game.
That is passing/offload. Time and time again we saw crash ball/trundlemuppetry. This is as I stated before, each player believing they were going to have a golden moment, break all the tackles and score. It's a self centred ego driven load of bollocks. In fact wales pretty much did the same, until they suddenly woke up and then executed some great passing. Once they realised that that they should play as team, and discovered the glory would be showered far and wide as the ball went far and wide.

Oh I wish we would become offloaders like the Kiwis. To me it is the essence of their game and why they are so bloody good. It should be our number one skill.

In fact if someone listened to [b]Jiffy[/b] for once they would realise that he knows the game intimately, and has good advice, his two favourite phrases:

[b]"Numbers"[/b] - this is him exhorting players to be available in space to recieve offloads

[b]"Another england wasted opportunity"[/b] This is where the "numbers" phrase is invalid because there are probably at least 4 england backs over and waiting, but some selfish **** is never going to offload, has gone crash ball and ruined it. Used to applied liberally to Mike Tindall, but now readily applied to most of the England team yesterday.

Until England sort this out we are doomed. They did it very well against NZ and suprised the shit out of them, but then they promptly forgot how to do it...

Vond - I think that is a decent summary.

Toys - arrogance and self centred has nothing to do with it.

And I'm with AA the try that Tip dummies at the end, fantastic play from an openside, as well as all that went before too.
Fofana was a result of poor tackling but still good try.

Toys - arrogance and self centred has nothing to do with it.

Indeed, lets not go down that route yet again. But I suspect confidence, trust in your team mates to have the skills to make it work and game strategy from the boss is the issue.

arrogance and self centred has nothing to do with it

Bear, that is only my supposition, it might may well not be due to arrogance, but it is a fact that they do not offload, and they should. I remain convinced that this is the key to rugby. Just watch any NZ game, or Wales at their best.

PS Bear, Kryton, you know I am an england supporter right? I'm not talking about the arrogance the ABE bunch go on about.

I don't know what game I was watching then, because the brown I saw was an utter liability. I don't see how that can be the end of Hartley either, seeing as how youngs is terrible in the scrum and line out. Also, war button has a 2 decent games out of his last what 8 games. Shouldn't even be in contention.

I realise the off loading game is key, but also to attack from turnover ball, something else NZ do better than anyone.

The reason NZ are so good at it is that all the players are very comfortable with ball in hand.

England are short of ball carriers it seems and appear to have no direction as to who is to take it up, who is to run the support etc. But with NZ it doesn't matter they are all good and know lines timings etc.

Or maybe that is it, England have to play such a set way with X carrying Y support that when you can't get those players into position it breaks down. It would also explain there slowness at certain situations whilst they wait for players to get in position to receive. A ball carrying 8 is a must, I've not seen the Vunipola brother but the prop is a handy player around the park.

The offload is an intresting one, All blacks use it when the time is right but critically dominate in the forwards, pass down the line, run straight lines and have backs who break the line.Offloading is part of the game, watch Italy versus Scots, scots tries came from pressure mistakes. Italy were trying to play the way the beat Ireland, Scotland just too disciplined on the day. Jim Hamilton praised Johnson from returning to Scots strengths NOT offlading.
BODs pass in the wales match beat three players, passing rather than offloads is the best way to score tries.
BUT

Defence is dominating so much that it is easier teach adding in scramble defense it becomes harder to beat. The balance at the moment is with the defence.

The Game has to address

Scrums.....nightmare
Referring consistancy...becoming a nightmare.
Physicality..most players weigh 14 stone plus and it is becoming a crash ball game, sublety is missing hence Sevens becoming the lite version.
More Zebos please.

Overall all a compelling tournament and the table reflected were teams are

Wales the best at the moment in a series of games
Englans second and developing nicely thanks
Scotalns, lucky to be third developed a gameplan based on defense and stuck to it> However have real danger in the backs BUT not allowed to play. Their issue is squad depth, the bench is too ligtweight.
Italy, Most Improved Team, best 8 in the world Paressi, real talent to come through Venditto, Furno both impressed. next season will see transition so diffucult
Ireland, so many injuries and failure to blood youngsters mean a transition year they will be back strongly with new coach O'Shea.
France, deserve to be bottom on the muppetry of selction.....dire....Picamoles would make the lions and be ideal, front row excellent Forfana world star followed by Huget who is proper talent. Trin Duc should have been 10. The debate will be the number of forigen players in the 14 league. If Saint Andre is charge next time and does not learn they will be bottom half of table again.

Highlights
BODs passs against welsh
Hoggs try against Italians
Lo Circeo emotional farewell
Halfpenny impresssive tournament and ariel battle against Hogg
Robshaws general tirelessness and skill and commitment to the cause.
Englands control in the wet against Ire
Orequras passing against the french, unexpected and brillant.

Lions
first name on the sheet
Adam Jones
then
Halfpenny
Tipuric
Philips.....just the scrmhalf needed
Wyn Jones
Warburton

Could be intresting

BOD for midweek team!

out. Also, war button has a 2 decent games out of his last what 8 games. S

i think you are confusing decent with outstanding. Even when he wasnt playing at his best he was pretty good. As Robshaw showed its much harder to play the game in a beaten pack going backwards. Robshaw got run over by Roberts a number of times yesterday. Thats not what I want out of Lions captain.

Spot the Welshman!

[img] [/img]

noticed that last night.............well played wales

I'm not sure I agree with Walsh here... would love to know who chucked it 😆

[img] [/img]

Vondally - I think you have pretty much summed it up spot on there.
I am very very happy that italy are getting there, its taken a while but they are showing some really good signs. Can only be good for the 6 nations.

I think the dominance of defence this time was partly due to the conditions over the middle 3 weekends though.
Scrums and refs are a major issue though, most sides in this championship have had some pretty dire decisions (going for and against).
It just seems that the IRB are not doing anything, first this would be to remove walsh from any ref position he holds. Not for his anti england bias but for his extremely dodgy history.

Thing is a_a 'what you want' from a Lions captain is for him to be Welsh....preferably with Warburton for a surname. Fair enough, but your trying to find fault with Robshaw is becoming daft now. Hovis has been as good as any player in the last two games....prior to that I'd argue that he wasn't 'pretty good' but about as effective as Tom Croft was yesterday....he got dropped and has lost his captaincy don't forget. I've never been his biggest fan, but on yesterdays form then it'll be tough to keep him out of any team.....although Tips will make the 7 jersey his own both for Wales and the Lions if he keeps his form.

first this would be to remove walsh from any ref position he holds. Not for his anti england bias but for his extremely dodgy history.

Can someone, anyone give me some stoned cold examples of what Walsh did wrong? Kryton I think mentioned the first scrum pen and Hibbard popped up but I've re watched it, wales were going forward and Youngs is the first up its hard to spot though as he's a midget and on the other side from the camera.He missed a few bits and bobs here and there like an early tackle on Biggar I think early on that gifted the ball to England but in general he got most things right. He contributed to making it a good game to watch for the neutrals and is a much better ref than Joubert or Clancy or a number of others.

As I said its his somewhat chequered history that I have issues with, a ref should not have picked fights with team management, or have been sacked from being a ref due to turning up drunk at an IRB ref conference, and abusing shane horgan.
Not exactly the sort of person that should get respect. He should however be in football maybe?

Thing is a_a 'what you want' from a Lions captain is for him to be Welsh....preferably with Warburton for a surname. Fair enough, but your trying to find fault with Robshaw is becoming daft now. Hovis has been as good as any player in the last two games....prior to that I'd argue that he wasn't 'pretty good' but about as effective as Tom Croft was yesterday....he got dropped and has lost his captaincy don't forget.

Nope I wouldnt want Warburton as captain, not sure who should be captain. But dont lets forget Warburton got injured and wasnt dropped. Robshaw seems like a good player but at his best is no where near world class. A lions captain should be world class like Johnson or BOD.

He shoved a player a fortnight ago when he complained at a blatant wrong decision.

Thing is with the first decision on the scrum, the scrum shouldn't be moving before the ball is in should it? Add to the fact that Hibbard at best stood up at the same time as Cole then for me a penalty to Wales is ludicrous, it was all over from then on.

Sorry my above post is aimed at the first on this page....

As an aside, how close do you think that Powell is to the Wales squad, or has that ship sailed now?

Did those big bully boys push in the scrum!! Dry you eyes mate!
[img] [/img]

penalty to Wales is ludicrous

was a free kick anyway 😆

😆

I'll take that as an agreement that it was a dubious call.

BOD was world class is he world class now?

I think Mungos ship has sailed.

Tom why would Goldilocks pop up when they were driving forward if he hadn't been taken up by Youngs coming apart?

BOD was world class is he world class now?

Dont think so, who is though out of the British... Adam is..... the interviews would be ace.....

I was trying to think of a better tight head than Adam earlier....I couldn't.

I think that 1/2p probably is too.

If robshaw isn't world class, then who is in terms of lions selection?
The only one I would consider as being able to break into a world xv is north, and he's no captain.

Not two who strike you as captain material though.

The only one I would consider as being able to break into a world xv is north, and he's no captain.

indeed

maybe we can sneak Parisse in as a wildcard 😆

The trouble with the scrum is that they've messed with it so much that each ref has their own interpretation. I think the experience in the Welsh pack means they recognised how the ref was playing it and took advantage.

Anyone reckon Sherri could end up going as a wildcard. He has been playing amazingly well at toulon. And its not as if the aussies are scared of him at all!

Powell should be going on his form of late.....I'm a proper fanboi of his, but he really does look back to his form of 4/5 years ago. Can England claim him if Wales don't want him? We're stuck with fatty bumbum atm 😕

If robshaw isn't world class, then who is in terms of lions selection?

Sexton?

Sorry, I don't think sexton is world class. Carter, steyn and cooper are better players.
Tom, I think we'll see big billy v filling that slot in the not too distant future.

Yeah I've not seen too much of him but his brother has impressed me. Morgan still has plenty to offer IMO too.

I'd rate Sexton way better than Quade Cooper fwiw.

Carter clearly out on his own but he is up there with the rest, therefore world class.

Sexton wouldn't make a world XV. Sorry, but that's the yardstick. I don't rate him as much better than Farrell or biggar personally.

*prepares to be flamed*

I'm sorry but I don't think this is going to be a classic heroic winning lions team we can all believe in. Who'd be Gatland eh? He's got the wrong problem - not that of a glut of world class players to choose from, but a glut of (in the main) second tier players from which to make a world class team.

*hides*

By that yardstick only 15 players in the world are world class....and only Dan Carter is a world class 10!

Lions need a team and it will be Gatlands to get balance.
Beattie will be eight I thinks with Warburton and Tip
Wyn Jones and Launchberry second
Adam Jones Best Healy front

Philips and Sexton (sexton is not world class yet)

Roberts and BOD centres but this open to debate

North and Cuthbert/

Halfpenny

I think one of the biggest issues with the modern scrum compared to the old style is the power and size of the players in the modern game. If they were just left to their own devices like the old days it would be a very dangerous place. But, this recent iteration of rules and their application seems worse than ever in terms of actually getting a scrum going.

As for players who are world class, I'm not sure if many, if any home nations players count there. Just look at the southern hemisphere teams, the ABs (forgetting their hiccup in Twickers) in particular.

[url= http://www.theroar.com.au/2013/01/21/scrum-hit-is-the-problem-after-all/ ]Just been reading this[/url]
Interesting research on the effect of the changes in the game over the past 10ish years on the scrum and engagement process

The thing about the Kiwis is that they have 2 of the greatest of all time currently in the line up. What they do so well is play as a cohesive unit and 95% of the time they play calmly. They can be undone but it is rare.

By that yardstick only 15 players in the world are world class....and only Dan Carter is a world class 10!

And Quade Cooper is? Don't think so

On the ongoing Hibbard pen stooshie,Wales were going forward and the English front row was split. He had no where to go, he couldn't go straight on as he had no shoulder to scrum against,couldn't go down as the English players legs were in the way. Key issue for a ref is WHY he popped up. Even watching it on telly I thought pen as soon as it happened.

Take away any issues with his scrum control and England still conceded enough points to ensure Wales won it. Give it long enough and the history books will show that Wales won because Walsh groped Farrell as he composed himself for his kicks at goal (Making Inverdale red with envy)

Here is the thing guys,the elite guys ref a certain way,I would be willing to bet the stats on what Walsh gives scrum pens for are broadly the same. Therefore a coach can play them,as should a professional player.

England lost out in the scrums because their scrum wasnt strong enough. You can spin it anyway you like but thats the bottom line.

England lost out in the scrums because their scrum wasnt strong enough. You can spin it anyway you like but thats the bottom line.

I think, on the evidence of this weekend, you could apply that to pretty much all aspects of the game.

But, they're a relatively young side that has promise. Earlier in the tournament against poorer opposition that was enough to string together a series of wins. Coming up against an experienced Welsh side that hit form at just the right time, they got shown for what they were. Which at this stage is simply an inexperienced side. I think the BBC flagged up a stat before the match that only five of the starters had even played Wales in Cardiff before.

Duckman - didn't he penealize England for standing up though, I think that is the issue.

wales did have the upper hand not in dispute but not to the extent that it was ref'ed I feel. Obviously hard to tell from TV when you aren't along side the scrum and appreciate that you know about all matters ref'ing more than most. Think someone said that Wales played the ref better and think that has a lot to do with it personally. Part of being a professional sportsman is playing to the official.

Still think he is a poor ref though. There does seem to be a lot of inconsistency in the way the game is officiated. Thought Owens was quite good in the last game though.

In all the joy/despair at the end of the 6 Nations campaign Quinns victory over Sale in the LV cup seems to have slipped by un noticed.

LV must be wondering why they bother to sponsor a comp where the final is played on the same weekend as the Grand Slam/championship decider 😕

Bear, he did pen England, but it is who stops the scrum from functioning, not who stood up/etc. Obviously if a prop has no bind and goes straight to ground it is pretty obvious who is at fault. But of the people complaining, do you think Wales are going to shunt England back, get the ball to the 8's feet and then stand up? Bearing in mind that doing so is a lottery in the modern game.And the modern game is all about percentages. Walsh apparenty got hammered at the elite refs convention and said a few things. No suprise that,(getting bladdered)even the ones up here in scotchland have a free bar 😯

In fact wales pretty much did the same, until they suddenly woke up and then executed some great passing

Isn't that a common game plan though? Keep it tight for 40 or 60 mins, then when people are tired open it up?

Thing is with the first decision on the scrum, the scrum shouldn't be moving before the ball is in should it? Add to the fact that Hibbard at best stood up at the same time as Cole then for me a penalty to Wales is ludicrous

It was actually a free kick awarded against Ben Youngs for not putting the ball in quickly enough. the scrum was moving though, probably because both packs were trying to win the hit. Most of the later srcums were more stable prior to the put in, possibly because Wales were content to take the hit in the knowledge that they had the upper hand

Poor little Shove, he does get picked on

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

Thing is with the first decision on the scrum, the scrum shouldn't be moving before the ball is in should it? Add to the fact that Hibbard at best stood up at the same time as Cole then for me a penalty to Wales is ludicrous

18.18 here shows the scrum from the other side marler was on his knees
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01rdln2/Scrum_V_2012_2013_Six_Nations_Special/

from about 24 mins you get Vickery's views