Too much embedded energy. How so, TJ? I've already linked stuff to show that the latest panels produce the energy needed to make them in a couple of years in southern europe and can be reasoanbaly expected to be producing for 25 years with over 80% of the initial production at the end of the period. That's in the same ball park as wind turbine carbon pay back periods.
Edukator - its just a viewpoint. They have their place but its not a major component of the solution IMO. Worth persevering with and who knows - perhapos the efficeincy can be increased - after all look at LEDs 🙂
My parents have had photovoltaics installed on their house (In glasgow) It will be interesting to see how well they perform but as it cost £9000 and their electricity bills were only a few hundred a year they will be hard pushed to pay back anything.
Hats off to your parents for investing in the future, TJ. As an old guy on DWTV said, "it's the young people that would like to do it but it's the old people that have the money to do it, I'm investing in my grandchildrens' future".
I agree that the financial return period in Scotland with the rate they'll be paid for production is going to be close to the life of the panels. From an energy point of view though, they should produce enough to justify the manufacture of the panels within about four years. Nice to know they care.
STW wind turbine ride? 🙄
OK...
I've got to sort a few things out with Mr Starship first as this started out as a "fancy a ride but can't be arsed driving too far" sort of deal. If there are many we will need to meet somewhere with sufficient parking (not the little car park in Holcombe as was the original plan) and we may as well aim to finish in the pub or chippy.
I shall post something. HtN started out this way too
"Shall we organise a race?"
"yeah"
5 events, £25,ooo and numerous sleepless nights later...
One problem with them is their impact on migrating birds.
They are very prominent here in the South West of Spain and are in direct line of the European Migration. Because the are on the top of mountain ranges they are having an impact on bird numbers, especially large and sometimes rare Raptors. Unfortunately there is a bit of a cover up going on too, where the authorities will quietly collect the dead birds and dispose of them early in the morning, largely out of sight. These deaths are unreported so the size of the impact cannot be clearly known.
Just to play Devil's Advocate... What effect is the reduction in polution from fossil fuel buring powerstations having on wild bird numbers?
They closed the coal fired station near us 20 odd years ago and a forest has grown on land that was once poisoned.
I love them! but i do work for a company that invests and builds wind turbines.
People need to face facts that we need to do something about where our energy comes from and modern day turbines are efficient and do not meet the stereotypes that plagued the industry years ago
oh and the migrating birds thing tends to only be with badly placed turbines, commonly with farms that were built in the early days. It is much more strict now and RSPB amongst others are always consulted.
ive spent the afternoon on site watching the blades and rotor hub being constructed and hoisted into place. absolutely fascinating to watch and it was massive. 125m to the tip of the blade. which is pretty big for an inland turbine. they can be seen from the m1 just south of leicester.
Harry. Sit back and relax dude. I'll take over organisational duties if you like.
Got to know Rammy pretty well of late. We'll liaise on route choice. Leave the rest to me. Seeing as this seems to be all my fault
Seems I'm riding out round Roddlesworth tomorrow. About these chips and beer?
And on a total thread hijack,
Do you have any routes in a shareable format?
Its a week tomorrow cougar. You don't get out of it that easy 😀
Have you ever ridden up the rake? Its a hell of a start to any ride. If we get up to the tower without anyone having a coronary we'll be doing well
I've just been informed its a 25% incline. Its thoroughly unpleasant anyway
Ooh, Binners, will there be any Hora Hurting™?
I may be tempted to come all the way up, if so...
Harry. Sit back and relax dude. I'll take over organisational duties if you like.
Nowt to it. We just need a meeting point and we're away.
Its a week tomorrow cougar. You don't get out of it that easy
Ah. Ok. That's a whole different kettle of whelks. Cool.
Have you ever ridden up the rake? Its a hell of a start to any ride. If we get up to the tower without anyone having a coronary we'll be doing well
I don't even know what the Rake is. I should also point out that I'm a) a noob, b) a pune and c) deeply out of practice. If you're happy to be gentle or give me a map and meet me at the end, that'll be groovy.
We're sorted then. I'll have a word with the lanlord of Grants this week. See if we can all park up there seeing as we'll be eating and drinking there later. We can be civilised and have frothy coffee's before we set off (and walk!) up the rake
Fred - if you get on the trainline.com now you'll get yourself a cheap ticket up to gods country. You know you want too 🙂
We can hold Hora hostage him and give him the full Guantanamo experience
Cougar. I can assure you most will be walking up it. I bloody will for a start! Masochistic roadies do a race up there every year
Its got a bit of a reputation. I doubt any of us will be posting faster times than these guys:
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest/348440/wiggins-enters-rake-hill-climb.html
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Of course I'm talking about the panels used in domestic PV
As I said - I am only looking at them in the sidelines - lightweight, robust and flexible are my current interest, which are only just being embedded into buildings (but have other uses). I won't link if you don't mind as we have further trials running over the summer both here and abroad.
Where are the exaggeratesd solar PV claims? My panels produced 5% more than on the quote in the first year. The same goes for all the people I know that have installed them
Ah, but we're in the UK, and companies here like to quote figures for what you get from them if you live where you do, which isn't. You can go on all you like about how well they work for you, but it will still be irrelevant for me, let alone TJ.
As for windmills, no matter how efficient they might be nowadays, you can't get away from the fact that the wind doesn't always blow, and that we have nowhere near (and never will have) the amount of storage capacity to cope with the times when it doesn't if we were relying on wind for even 25% of our electricity needs. Far better than wasting money on them to spend it on research into far more useful things like undersea tidal generation - or save it for rolling such technologies out when they are more mature. With the bonus of not spoiling the environment we're ostensibly trying to save.
i am sorely tempted but the day after I need to do Snowdon or I would be with you
Cougar all STW rides are more competitive for the lantern rouge [ last rider] than for first.
Any chance a relative newby to the area could come gate crash this ride too? I like the idea of being competitive for last rather than first place and you chaps don't seem all bad either!
looks like the more the merrier at the moment fella 😀
Oh yeah wind turbines...
I remember some relatives what live in Cornwall talking about the 'outrage' over a wind farm constructed on some bleak, desolate windswept moor, how it was 'unsightly'.
FFS.
So, how you gonna power yer homes then you selfish bunch of NIMBYS?? Jeeze. So it's ok for some power plant in a far away place to belch out fumes, not to mention the mammoth logistical task of laying power lines etc, at incredible expense, so that they can sit in their nice rural homes far from all the pollution of the city, and gloat about how wonderful their lives are. Yet still be able to sit there behind their lace curtains tutting about stuff about us inner city scum pon television. Bastidz.
If you ask me, all rural folk should have to produce their own leccy. Would make it a lot cheaper for the rest of us. You choose to live out there in such Godforsaken places, so suffer it and shut up. And if windfarms need to be built near you, then tough. Oh, it's ok for roads to be built everywhere so's youse can buzz about in your planet-raping poison producing cars to get into the cities when you need yer tweed and Barbour, innit? Or so's huge lorries can transport all the stuff you actually need to live on, y'know, like food and clothes and building materials and medicines bikes and that. Hypocrites.
I like pylons, me. Elegant symbols of Mankind's endeavours.
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Ooh! Me pizza's ready! 😀
[i]*The onions expressed above may not necessarily reflect a rational, considered point of view, and may very possibly more likely be the deranged rantings of a tormented mind...[/i]
I can assure you most will be walking up it. I bloody will for a start!
That's somewhat reassuring.
Cougar all STW rides are more competitive for the lantern rouge [ last rider] than for first.
That'll be easy, it'll be me or Lou (OH) competing for last place. I've no delusions of adequacy, just don't want to be a millstone for everyone else.
Binners et al, might I respectfully suggest a new thread for this?
If you ask me, all rural folk should have to produce their own leccy. Would make it a lot cheaper for the rest of us.
Sounds fair. Local electricity generation. I presume London also has to generate all its own electricity - no importing it from outside. Same goes for food, clothes, etc. I like your thinking.
Cougar. You'll be facing serious competition to be the slowest. I'll sort out the arrangements for this one and bung a post up next week for this
I do feel quite guilty that we've hijacked Harry and Dereks pleasant ride
If anyone doesn't know wahat we're riding then look on the cover of this months mag
Can we make this the (un}official Singletrack 10th birthday ride? seeing as this is their featured route/location this month?
Woosh!
What's that sound, Aracer?
The blade of a windmill as it kills a migratory bird?
Turbine Ride thread.
http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ramsbottom-wind-turbine-ride-saturday-april-2nd
wind turbines dont kill birds it was on QI last night amongts other sources and is the view of the RSPB. Site sensitivity is an issue killing birds an urban myth though it makes goats lungs explode!! I guess things that fly are quite good at avoiding things.
They most definitely do kill birds
As pointed out (somewhere) it would depend where they are placed. The badly placed wind turbines in the S/West of Spain are killing raptors. The problem is, as the authorities are trying to hide it, no-one really knows how many. Then again one adult from an active breeding pair of endangered eagles is one too many.
I've no idea about goats lungs but have seen Moroccan children inflate goat scrotums like a balloon. 🙂
Moroccan childen with a foot pump and a nervous goat were seen leaving the schene just before this happened.
The problem is, as the authorities are trying to hide it, no-one really knows how many.
Does your bike helmet have a tin foil lining:
[url= http://www.rspb.org.uk/ourwork/policy/windfarms/index.aspx ]RSPB: Wind farms[/url]
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[b]Birds lost in action[/b]. Annual bird deaths in Denmark caused by wind turbines and cars, and annual bird deaths in Britain caused by cats. Numbers from Lomborg (2001). Collisions with windows kill a similar number to cats.
Well what on Earth was that dozy boid doing flying around the turbine ffs? It could easily have avoided it.
I'm all for protecting endangered species and all that, and yes, care and consideration needs to be taken when siting such things, but if boids are gonna dice with death like that, then it's their own stupid fault.
Scotland don't have any nuclear power? Why not? I'd have thought it the perfect place to site power stations; remote, far away from populated areas, lots of water to cool stuff down and that. Could put them inside mountains. And if they do blow up, it wouldn't really matter so much.
Would it be possible to harness Rain Power? Cos then Scotland could be a World leading power producer.
Pity moaning can't be harnessed for it's power producing potential, cos again, Scotland would be a World leader. And the North.
If you want/need power, then you have to accept there will be environmental consequences. Some folk just want to have their cake and eat it. Bloody rural folk want all the benefits of modern life, but none of the negative aspects. Moan about a wind farm, yet they're out poisoning badgers and using all sorts of hazardous chemicals on their farms, shooting birds of prey, all sorts. And they're subsidised by us city folk, the miserable sods. Build workhouses, bung em all in 'em, I say. Would solve rural unemployment too.
Quite why I'm not in charge of things, I have no idea.
Scotland already harnesses it's rain power, Elfin.
Really? In what way??
Oh, you mean they use it to keep foreigners out. I get it. 😀
TooTall
No foil hat. I work with ringers, guides and scientists all who work closely with the local bird population and migratory populations. I spent 8 hours out in the field with one yesterday who is a registered guid and is monitoring rare and endangered birds in the area for the local authorities. Your graph is useless. I was referring to a certain type of bird, raptors, and certain migratory paths. Unless you can provide a factual graph with these points just adding the number of all bird deaths is misleading and pointless.
Wind turbines wont kill birds which don't fly that high in that area similarly your average domestic cat won't be killing Golden eagles or Egyptian vultures.
roper
If you read the link that also appeared in my post, you'd see more detail and a bit more meat about the responsible siting of wind turbines from the RSPB:
The available evidence suggests that wind farms can harm birds in three possible ways – disturbance, habitat loss or damage (both direct or indirect), and collision. Poorly sited wind farms have caused some major bird casualties, particularly in Tarifa and Navarra in Spain, and the Altamont Pass in California. At these sites, planners failed to consider adequately the likely impact of putting hundreds, or even thousands, of turbines in areas that are important for birds of prey. Tragically, killing many hundreds of birds as a result.If wind farms are located away from major migration routes and important feeding, breeding and roosting areas of those bird species known or suspected to be at risk, there is a strong possibility that they will have minimal impact on wildlife.
Which seems robust enough to cover what the graphic didn't.
TooTall
That quote from the RSPB above confirms what I have been posting so hardly paranoia or tin foil hat territory is it?
It also shows the graph is useless to demonstrate the danger of wind turbines to raptors, the main type of bird being affected by them.