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Callng him David Cameroon is a bit harsh for the people of Cameroon, isn't it?
It's (Ca)moron, surely?
The kind of language being used by Obama et al indicates to me that the west have virtually no options here. Which is a pity for anyone in Ukraine who actually believed that the EU and the rest of the west would ride to their rescue if Russia got narky. Putin, of course, knows this, so just ignores the bluster and does what he needs to do.
The Russian position so far can be justified far more easily than some of the US and UK's little adventures in recent years.
The current borders of Ukraine are unsustainable if its government is in disagreement with Russia. Crimea was artificially tacked onto Ukraine despite being Russian, and laden with Russian military assets. How did anyone think Putin would respond to a new government (as yet unelected) which might be considering reprisals against Russian people and Russian interests?
As for the reportage, RT and BBC seemed equally biased, so watching both would be advised. Did anyone else see the footage of one of those leading the 'revolution' marching into a ministry post handover and physically attack some poor functionary because he couldn't answer a question? Russia is right to be wary of the new government, and we should be too before throwing our weight behind them.
I'd be more worried if I were Scottish. Apparently Dave is looking admiringly at the way the shirtless crocodile wrestler is handling this, and has sent little Willie over there, under the guise of a diplomatic mission, to get some pointers on securing military assets at Faslane, post independence 😆
All of a sudden 2014 has gone all 1914 🙁
No chance of anything happening, the US and britian, will tut away at invading a nation(but everyone else will just laugh at them considering their recent history of invasions). Russia will annex Crimea as an independent protectorate or some such, the Ukrainians will bump their gums about it. But ultimately russia will get what it wants(If not over step it's reach, but my guess on that is how the Ukrainians react and how much of a lesson they want taught.)
Ahh the good old impartial beeb, they'd never take a biased stand point... 😆kimbers - Member
Putin's own personal propaganda channel spinning the news differently from every one else, who'd a thunk it ?Binners
Putin may have been tactically astute here but perhaps less strategically so. The west is the opposite, so far too early to start lampooing the western leaders completely even if they have mishandled the situation. With Russia forced to raise interest rates today in response to the flight of its currency, the financial markets down 10%, the goodwill from $30bn "investment" in Sochi gone almost overnight and inevitable economic sanctions coming, Putin has opened up a whole new can of domestic and international concerns.
Scary times....
Putin’s geostrategically irrational muscle-flexing might enhance his legitimacy at home and stabilize the system he built for a while. But, over time, it will be Putinism’s undoing. Imperialist behavior will make Russia a rogue state and Putin persona non grata. Boris Nemtsov, a liberal Russian politician, described the consequences of Putin’s folly well on a Facebook post. “This bloody madness,” he wrote, “will have high costs for Russia and Ukraine: once again young boys from both sides will die, mothers and wives will weep, and children will become orphans. Billions, tens of billions of rubles will be taken from senior citizens and children and thrown at war, and afterwards still greater resources will be needed to sustain the criminal regime of the Crimea.” But that, Nemtsov continued, is just what Putin desires. “He cannot hold on to power any other way. The vampire needs war. He needs the people’s blood.”Today, the international community, the European Union, and the United States face the greatest threat to world peace since the Cold War. After all, if Putin can get away with Ukraine, why would he stop there? If the West will not respond forcefully to such imperialism in a country as large as Ukraine, it is unlikely that it would be ready to stop him on behalf of tiny Estonia and Latvia. The world should have learned from World War II that stopping aggression before it spreads is the best way to prevent geopolitical and humanitarian catastrophes. The West cannot close its eyes to fascistoid imperialism. It must express its full support of Ukraine and tell Putin, in no uncertain terms, that only an immediate withdrawal of all Russian troops can forestall Russia’s transformation into a rogue state.
[i]Foreign Affairs[/i] today
Obama will do nothing of any consequence. He has already announced cuts in defence spending. American forces are withdrawing from any meaningful overseas presence, starting with Afghanistan. When he told the Egyptian military that he was suspending support, who sidled up and said "Don't worry, I'm your guy"? Putin.
The idea that anything will stop Putin ensuring his military bases in the Crimea is fanciful. Obama and NATO will do a lot of complaining and Putin will just shrug and say whatever Russian is for "Yeah, whatevah".
The west is weak and doesn't have the heart for any more conflict. Also, it's influence is on the wain. Putin knows this and is just playing the Great Game to his advantage. The Chinese will do nothing, They can afford to sit and wait while the thing plays itself out.
The new Ukranian "government" had best just go - "Hey P. Crimea. Yours." if it wants to survive without bloodshed.
Perhaps, when looking for completely trumped-up pretext, he might want to examine his own countries recent foreign adventures (WMD's anyone?).
Perhapse you should? The USA didn't make much of the WMD claims, they went in for regime change and nothing else. Hingeing the opperation on the WMD claim was a British thing. They claimed they were possibly there, but they didn't pin their hat on it.
interesting opinion piece in the Observer this weekend that take a little more reflective view on the departure of Yanukovych
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/02/crimea-crisis-russia-ukraine-cold-war
and some great journalism from the BBC, looking behind the scenes at some of the protesters in Kiev
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26394980
Can't help but feel a level of respect for Putin in thumbing his nose and reminding the West of Panama, Kosovo, Iraq, Afghanistan - the irony is so strong you could brush your teeth with it 😈
I see Germany is already backing off the 'throw them out the G8' position - amazing what happens when you've closed down your Nuclear reactors and end up relying on Russian gas to keep the lights on! (Anti-Fracking protesters, take note!)
There will be a short term hit on the stock markets, but Russia is still resource rich, and we saw how short the West's memory was when it kicked off in South Ossetia, and the same 'big bad Russia' rhetoric got trotted out.
THM - I notice that your fairly apocalyptic extract is written by Alexander Motyl, an US-based Ukranian who frequently writes with a notable bias against Russian influence in Ukraine (and that's putting it mildly).
By his definition there are quite a few rogue states around the world, including the US.
Plenty of posturing on both sides. I don't think the Ukranian military has the appetite for direct confrontation with a greatly superior force, and the west will certainly not be dragged in.
Are wars going smaller with suicide bombers doing a better job than b52s?
No doubt Moscow train station can expect to phone the decorators soon.
Perhapse you should? The USA didn't make much of the WMD claims, they went in for regime change and nothing else. Hingeing the opperation on the WMD claim was a British thing. They claimed they were possibly there, but they didn't pin their hat on it.
Apart from championing UN resolution 1441, which was principally about the failure of Iraq to disarm fully after the first Gulf War. This was the tool used to make the war legitimate.
Their certainty about the intelligence is neither here nor there - they thought it was strong enough to justify the resolution and the invasion.
Can't help but feel a level of respect for Putin
What the guy is a corrupt, murdering, nut job, who has been ramping up the Russian military machine for a good while now. The concern is where will he stop? The West can't do anything military wise, it would end in WWIII but it sure can make life difficult for the regime at the top, by other means.
Makes me laugh only 2 weeks ago the Guardian were writing articles about how we no longer need the armed forces or nukes, as this was the safest time in all of history. We've heard that before and it didn't end well last time either.
The USA didn't make much of the WMD claims, they went in for regime change and nothing else. Hingeing the opperation on the WMD claim was a British thing. They claimed they were possibly there, but they didn't pin their hat on it.
Well I seem to remember some ridiculous Dr Evil style mobile biological weapons facilities, presented to the UN by someone who really should have known better
[img] 
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Whatever happened to them eh?
I suppose it was a step above the spurious bollox offered on Afghanistan about combatting the heroin trade, ending corruption, and championing women's rights though. That went well! Its such shame as it was eminently believable. If you were a half-wit. Which I suppose was the target audience.
At least the Russians are honest! They've invaded to annexe the place, and the rest of the world can **** off!
Just read the sorry saga of the 'laboratories' again, Binners. 🙂 I'd forgotten the late Dr David Kelly's role in deflating the US and UK authorities on that one.
I guess the US line turned to regime change alone when they realised they had found damn-all else to hang their hats on.
What the guy is a corrupt, murdering, nut job, who has been ramping up the Russian military machine for a good while now. The concern is where will he stop?
Yes, fortunately our (UK & US) impeccable record leaves us firmly on the moral high ground on this one 😐
Whatever happened to them eh?
Meth Labs 😀
interesting take on why Russia don't particularly care for our feelings anymore!
In short, the Russians have figured out the bleeding obvious! 😀
Why anyone should surprised by all this is beyond me, on several levels.
Don't be to hard on Hague at least he's gone over there to tell them face to face "we are powerless". "We've no more armed forces to speak of and totally skint, also the Russia's are keeping our shops in London busy".
Historically Russia has always liked a good distance from it's border to Moscow.
Theme tune to Putins presidency.
Don't be to hard on Hague at least he's gone over there to tell them face to face "we are powerless". "[s]We've no more armed forces to speak of and totally skint,[/s] You know they still have nukes and supply the gas we rely on due to out inability to implement a sensible energy policy
Different take, we could have the US & China's military forces and we still wouldn't be able to do anything.
seosamh77 - that article is indeed stating the bleeding obvious. But thanks for posting, because once you've read that, everything else uttered on the subject is just pointless waffle. And it makes little Willie Hagues little trip over there completely laughable
That article is not quite right, Russia never cared about anyone but themselves, however, until recent times and the O&G boom they were essentially broke. Also helps that they know Obama is wet and has already said he want to look East and not West. Britain and France out of the states in Europe are best positioned to put some pressure on Russia but outwardly it'll only be words, I'm sure behind the scenes further discussions are going on. Looks like Germany for the sake of being 'green' have stumbled blindly into having no energy security, and will have to be nice to the Russian's for now at least.
The country that can't be very happy right now is Turkey, surrounded by waring or unstable countries on pretty much all sides.
And when you combine that with light reading on one of the main forces behind the protests and the takeover of Ukraine, Willie Hague needs to think carefully who he wants to align himself with.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20824693
Nice to see some of Nick Griffin's mates getting a bit of power and influence.
Off at a slight tangent here......didn't a certain Herr Hitler use a similar pretext to Putin's in 1939 when Germany invaded Poland?
Ukraine in 1943 was a mirror image of the current situation really. Ethic Germans being protected from the nasty Ruskies.
I may be wrong here but it seems that the peace treaties from the two major 20th century conflicts seem to be have been unravelling one by one since they were signed. I don't expect a replay of 1914 or even 1939, the world is a far more dangerous place now with nukes etc, but it is interesting to see that ethnic tensions still remain in a lot of the 'civilised' world and armed conflict has proved a wholly unsatisfactory method of sorting them out.
Herr Hitler's excuse about Sudetenland was a plausible story to disguise his ambitions to annexe a lot more land. If he'd have left it at Sudetenland, then I daresay things would have been different.
So I guess it comes down to whether Putin is prepared to pitch for the whole of Ukraine or not. I suspect he'd view western Ukraine as a pit of nationalist snakes that he wouldn't touch with a bargepole.
Perhaps Cameron will head off to Moscow and fetch a piece of paper to wave around?
Perhaps the Westminster government could do the same if Scotland goes independent. There are a lot of English speakers in Scotland who need protecting, there's even an important Naval base.
And the best bit is they won't be protected by NATO membership 😀
The cold war never ended. The Soviet Union just ran out of money. Now the "all new" Russian Federation has the revenue from selling gas and oil it can fuel up the bombers, build new weapons and engage in Jeux Sans Frontières, just like us.
Putin is a KGB man of the Soviet era - that's what he did for a job. It said it on his pay slip. The old school KGB are not really the types of bloke to turn all Mandela.
If I was a slight nutterish Ukrainian national (a % of the Ukrainian population - RT tells us) I'd be straight off to the reactors to spin up a couple of centrifuges to build me a bomb to burn Moscow, just in case the "liberator" from the East tried to er, liberate us. Or, if you had a certain sense of humour, build a dirty bomb from material gathered from Chernobyl. What would you have to loose - your going to be dead anyway.
^-- not my point of view, just a thought (not a nice one tho).
...as GCHQ put STW on the watch list!
Why is Hague talking this up so much?
Is there an home news story that the Government wants us to divert our attention from? Ah yes, the floods.
Shock horror A region that was once part of Russia, has Russian speakers in a area thats recently unstable has been nicked back. What will be West do?
**** all. The West has been invading countries allover the middle east for the past two decades.
Its an over-egged/talked up media rag-piece. Nothing will happen. The Russians have got it back. Fine, move on.
OP learn how to spell and also understand that Messers Bliar and Brown murdered hundreds of thousands on their watch..and counting.
With an eye to the future perhaps time Europe pushed on with fracking for gas and built new nuclear. Long term the less cash flowing to Russia the better.
http://euanmearns.com/the-primary-energy-tale-of-two-continents/
The war starts tomorrow morning at 05.00 sharp apparently. I'd better go for a ride tonight just in case.
Russia's Black Sea Fleet has told Ukrainian forces in Crimea to surrender by 5 a.m. (0300 GMT) on Tuesday or face a military assault, Interfax news agency quoted a source in the Ukrainian Defence Ministry as saying.
Is ti just me or is it really just horsetrading over where the new border/berlin wall will be?
"Messers Bliar and Brown murdered hundreds of thousands on their watch..and counting."
Blair is hoping that the "we'll let you off" letters sent to the IRA runners will set an example for him. But I digress...
Is ti just me or is it really just horsetrading over where the new border/berlin wall will be?
If the Russian Black Sea Fleet told me to surrender, on orders from the homo-erotic, bareback, shark-puncher, I'd be planting a white flag and running away as fast as my little legs would carry me.
They really don't look like they **** about! I'd say the border will end up exactly where they say it'll end up!
They left it too late in South Ossetia, so have decided to make up for it by being really, really early this time.
The war starts tomorrow morning at 05.00 sharp apparently. I'd better go for a ride tonight just in case.
So - what do we reckon? Will the Ukrainians go down in a blaze of gory (SWIDT), or will they wait until 04:49 and then go "Oh, all right then, you win"? 😐
Don't exactly have a tactical advantage, do they? Lightly armed and mostly conscripted, with no air support.
The FTSE didn't lose much today and the markets are usually right, although I'm keeping a close watch for a good buying opportunity ("buy on the sound of cannons") 🙂
OP learn how to spell and also understand that Messers Bliar and Brown murdered hundreds of thousands on their watch..and counting.
Wrong spelin is an act of derision against people you dislike,people so out of touch with reality youd need the worlds biggest telescope to see the outlines of which planet they exist on.
Lets not forget thatcher and everyone before her once in a position of power and with the media propoganda they endlessly produce also killed thousands of people, and in the next few months uk plc will be sadly celebrating all those poor dead people of many countries that died in the first world war.
So - what do we reckon? Will the Ukrainians go down in a blaze of gory (SWIDT), or will they wait until 04:49 and then go "Oh, all right then, you win"?
I always thought it was a curious arrangement: renting out your main naval base to a much more powerful and always potentially adversarial neighbour. Seems like a good way to stop it being your naval base...
Can't believe how fast this has got out of hand (potential for a shooting war in the Ukraine, not this thread). 🙁
Privately, the commanders admitted to Ukrainian troops that they were Russian regular troops. Given that some of them were personally acquainted, there was not much point in hiding it.As Major Lomtev in Feodosia put it: "We know a lot of them, because we have done a lot of joint exercises together and have close links with them. To be honest, I don't think they are very proud of the orders they are carrying out at the moment."
(From the [url= http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/02/ukraine-crisis-russia-crimea-standoff ][i]Grauniad[/i].[/url])
War... what is it good for? Absolutely nuffink. 🙁
We need Superman and all his mates to fist Putin and his cohorts.
Personally I think the taking over and subsequent annexing of Crimea will be mutually agreeable to
Putin and the population. But I fear if the Russians attempt anything further north then there may be
Armed conflict between NATO and the perp'.
I'm starting to get my 14 year old self's H- bomb fears.