One interesting view I’ve seen elsewhere is that Mr Darwall may now fall victim to the Barbara Streisand Effect.
It's certainly received a lot of high profile media coverage today.
To be honest I had no idea wild camping was illegal.
Those I see in the lakes tend to do so respectfully, so I see no issue if those that already do so continue respectfully and this is just used to clamp down on those that leave their disposible bbqs, broken camp chairs and empty cans behind. However I 100% agree that this is further erosion of our freedom.
@winston your excellent post deserves to be widely disseminated not limited to STW.
Agreed - very well put @winston
And the law now has new teeth to make sure his (The Landowners) rights are upheld.
@davesport I presume your quote is from last year? and not directly related to this case?
https://whoownsengland.org/2021/03/22/who-owns-dartmoor/
Interesting. Hadn't ever really considered who owned what before
I am a little sympathetic, considering how disruptive some campers are. But the legal argument is ridiculous. Camping isn't recreation? **** off.
So sad.
T'was the one part of England where you could experience real freedom for a day or two.
I'm in the 'i really even think it was illigal' camp, I've always wild camped on open moors/national parks, I hate camp sites, they're horrible places, I thought that was why everyone hated camping!?
Obviously I'm not going to camp under the farmers window, in a feild of crops or near livestock, but turn up at last light, leave at first, be inconspicuous about it and leave no trace.
I did hear a roumour at one time of police helopters going out over the Brecon Beacons 'if they were up anyway' but bloody hell, it's not like they're gonna land next to you and send you on your way, or phone it in and send the Bill out up Pen Y Fan at 1am!
Great post @Winston
I'll carry on as I am thanks, Dartmoor or anywhere else.
Camping isn’t recreation?
Does rather raise the question, "what is it then?"
So????
The sixth largest land owner on Dartmoor has presented and won a case about the right to roam on common land.
It's almost as if 'one' wanted to have a friend be seen as the bad guy to pass a law which helps 'one'. I'm sure the hedge fund manager won't handle any of mine,
my families or stupidly rich pals funds in my life time. It's not as if Dartmoor is the weakest area of attack to set a president to stop poor scum bags like me camping for 'free'. Why would I want to camp for free? The Renter's reform bill helps poor scum like me. Rising house prices help me. It's not like I can't buy a van and live in that without it now becoming a criminal offense. Which means every type of insurance and rental property will be freely available to me.
I have no doubt that the only place I will not be able to live is in what will be the waste ground of the country. The 'North'. I'm sure I won't have to work in a factory which will kill me of cancer in 20 years because I have no other choice. But I'm sure I can protest without getting 10 years in jail for not stopping because a copper tells me so.
Paranoid nut job. That's me. The freak in the corner with the tinfoil hat on which everyone laughs at. Luckily nearly everyone who reads this will be dead before I'm proven right. But who cares? It's the internet and I can't spell and my grammar sucks. I also can't Unfortunately keep my big gob shut 🤪 Do impress send? I guess I did
To me its absolutely about intimidation and erosion of rights.
Only if you pay attention to them. The well heeled go where they want,and do what they want. That much I learned during the foot and mouth closure in the early 2000. So, now I do the same. I ride FP, stop where I want, go where I want. I'm perfectly polite, don't cause a fuss and just get on with it. I encourage others to behave like-wise.
Here in Sweden we pretty much have the right to roam anywhere and set up camp overnight. I have Even seen a group of people set up tents in the middle of a roundabout. Some people Even put staircases over their fences to make it easy for hikers to cross.
Same access rules as anywhere else in England surely?
No. The possible penalties for riding a footpath or other track other than a bw or other row open to bikes on the moor are quite severe whereas in the rest of the country they are non existent. Dnp were looking to make them even more severe in the legislation they were trying to get through last year.
Right To Roam are protesting https://www.eventbrite.com/e/raise-old-crockern-to-defend-dartmoor-tickets-514716339427
JOIN US IN DARTMOOR ON JANUARY 21ST for the first of many acts of defiance against this assault on our freedom.
We’ll be marching on Mr Darwall’s land to raise the spirit of Old Crockern, the ancient protector of Dartmoor who rises when the moor is threatened, and when greed abounds! The event is free, but it's good to get an idea on numbers, so follow the link above to register.
I did try finding out if anyone had ever been prosecuted or even charged under these bylawS restricting bike use. Drew a blank.
I’ve been wild camping for the last 20 odd years, but in the last few years there is a considerable amount more doing so - then posting it on Instagram / Youtube!!
I came down quite late one summer evening towards Llyn Idwal in Snowdonia - which I think is a nature reserve- the number of ‘wild campers’ there having a barbeque and partying was unbelievable.
Wild camping used to be about a few friends/individual pitching late and leaving early, and I appreciate a lot do this.
Difficult one! Have the locals noticed more rubbish being left in the area?
During that first summer after Covid when campsites etc were closed and no-one could travel. It was a shitshow, literally. But existing laws could have dealt with it.
Since then it’s been pretty much back to normal.
No. The possible penalties for riding a footpath or other track other than a bw or other row open to bikes on the moor are quite severe whereas in the rest of the country they are non existent
So, as I read what you have written, the possible penalties are more severe but the actual rules regarding access are the same as the rest of the country.
Back on topic, time for the largest land owner on the Moor - Duchy of Cornwall - to step up and state they are happy to let wild camping on their land continue as it always has. Come on Willy you could do with some positive PR at the moment!
It's lovely to think that our taxes are being used to provide subsidies for the landowners.
Grrrrrr!
Duchy aren’t stupid. There will be someone working out how they can monetise this.
Wild camping permits, £100/yr/tent anyone? More?
So, as I read what you have written, the possible penalties are more severe but the actual rules regarding access are the same as the rest of the country
Can you be fined for riding a fp in the rest of the country? Don't think so.
I am a little sympathetic, considering how disruptive some campers are.
Yes, but if you take away what little there is left for the people, then life will be rather restrictive don't you think so especially for people who like to camp? Not all campers are bad I suspect.
So sad.
T’was the one part of England where you could experience real freedom for a day or two.
Now we are all "imprisoned" with no more freedom as every inch of the ground is own by someone.
Not all campers are bad I suspect.
Very true, me and the mate when we arrived at the Glen Etive wild camping spot, would walk the area with bin bags picking up every scrap of litter.
Same when leaving, which makes good practice as you can forget things.
Couple of reasons for it. One being that occasionally the estate guys wander in, so none of it can be attributed to us. The other being my mate was a bit of a pyromaniac and was always looking for stuff to burn 😆
We were both in the same scout group and did loads of camping there, and this was standard procedure at the end of each camp
Just to show this arguement from another perspective and to stop any acusations of STW being an echo chamber, there are some good points raised (along with some obvious rants) over on the UK Farming Forum.
https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/dartmoor-wild-camping.383442/
Worth a read to get a more balanced view of the situation and strength of feeling on this issue. Spoiler alert. It is not all anti open access sentiment, but it is certainly more pragmatic and less emotive than many of the people against the ruling. For what it is worth I think it will change very little. Those who used to camp within the spiirit of the old rules will continue to do so unopposed. Maybe those who blatently abused the rules might be moved on more easily. Maybe not. Certtainly here in the Brecon Beacons National park where wild camping is "illegal" I rarely go out on the hils late in the evening wihtou coming across 1 or more small tents tucked away in the landscape doing no harm to anyone. I have done it myself many times. I am actively involved in the local commons grazing group and it has never been raised as an issue (unlike the one of big groups having rave parties alongside the common roads or in the woods, which are a constant source of friction.
As someone who spends a lot of time in a tent or bivi bag (including Dartmoor in the past), I should care more about this than I do. But I'm so fed up of cleaning up after other people (for the reasons explained above) that I almost endorse anything that might impinge on their antics, while realistically making no difference to me.
Case in point at the end of last year: found a good local bivi site - except for a 70l rucsac worth of cans and bottles, rotting tarps and log platform. Went back later in the week with a saw, big pack and folding spade. Bagged the litter, sawed up the logs and scattered them around, just the fire scar left to dig in and stones to scatter. I'm getting so tired of this, though.
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But, y'know, if you're not part of the solution...
Daft question, can you just camp anywhere in a motorhome in Scotland ? I'm guessing not ? Just watching Sunday Brunch and one of the guests said they went in a hired motorhome from Southern England into Scotland. The just used a 'wild camping' app to find a spot, pitched up and woke to great views. Sounds irresponsible to say that on TV - going to ruin it for everyone if people take this attitude with campers.
Montgomery - good work, but the ruling will make no difference to people who don’t give a toss.
It'll make some difference but, like I say, I've just stopped really caring about this stuff. Follow your own moral compass and **** the lot of 'em.
From the perspective of those that manage outdoor spaces;
Those that properly wild camp cause little to no issue, although do sometimes need reminding not to post it all over social media. Popularity of one spot did make it visible from the local town 5 miles away at one point.
Equally don't camp next to the main access points.
If you leave your stuff out during the day, don't expect to find it when you come back.
A colleague came from Loch Lomond NP where the car camping was an utter piss take around the lake and the mislabelling of this as wild camping rather than rude messy ****s impacts on an entirely unrelated activity.
There are unfortunately people with no respect for their surroundings wherever they are and the countryside is busier than before and experiencing more of them.
If there is nothing visible to report it doesn't get back to the estate office we don't need to do anything about it 😉
For what it is worth I think it will change very little. Those who used to camp within the spiirit of the old rules will continue to do so unopposed
Sadly, I'm not sure I agree with you. The sense of being within the law and not subject to challenge has been a part of wild camping on Dartmoor for me. I don't want to feel like I'm doing wrong, or might be challenged, especially if I'm up there with my son, and that would affect my decision to choose this particular activity (which reminds me - not recreation? How the heck would you fail to argue that hiking up a hill to spend the night under canvas is anything else?). I'm not someone who relishes confrontation, so it does make a difference.
Some similarity with mountain biking on the Moor (BWs notwithstanding, obvs). I do feel that we are a little persecuted by the authorities, who have stopped me before. I have then always done as asked, while also taking the opportunity to engage in the discussion. Those discussions while civil have also shown quite a lot about attitudes towards mountain biking. And yes, in the letter of the law we are technically subject to more severe penalties riding off a BW than elsewhere in England, which I think is utterly ridiculous given a national park exists in part as a device to enable access and recreation, and given that Dartmoor in particular is in spirit supposed to be more open access than the rest of the country.
NB I am also a farmer and landowner and understand the issue from both sides. But I also agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment that changing a law like this will change the behaviour of the law abiding, and not much the behaviour of those who would be dicks whatever. So I think it very much is about erosion of rights and should he resisted.
Good point about being allowed made by luket above. To have somewhere you can go, wild camp and it not be something to encourage confrontation. This has been a big attraction of wild camping on Dartmoor for me too, it's like riding a BW rather than a FP (another entirely ridiculous discussion), you have as much place there as any other.
Neither has it been without rules on distances from roads and dwellings, if these were better followed/enforced maybe it wouldn't have reached this point?
The not recreation part seems the weakest link in the existing argument.
By the same measure, surely shooting isn't recreation, that is pest control that should only be carried out by trained, licensed and insured persons?
Time for a few mass trespasses.
It’s another sad day when an arsehole like this can take away something that has been our right for so long. Hopefully there will be an appeal.
It’s a pretty big test case nationally so hopefully there will be lots of interest.
All so the scum bag can make himself more money.
It’s a pretty big test case for this.
Someone needs to try to get Charles and William involved. Charlie was always pro-countryside, maybe getting the king involved would help.
Also mass camp outs and trespasses are the order of the day.
Thanks for the first real LOL of the day. Charles taking the side of plebs against a landowner! Yeah that will happen.
Someone needs to try to get Charles and William involved. Charlie was always pro-countryside, maybe getting the king involved would help.
Pressumably it will be a real issue for Duke of Edinburgh Award, and Scouts and those groups?
Its such a dick move. And Why?
"I bought it, its mine"
More likely not having plebs around to get under the horses feet or distract the hounds while they are hunting.
Remember when criminalising trespass was put into the Conservative 2019 Manifesto?
I do, but obviously folk didn't understand what they were actually proposing, and thought it only applied to 'Travellers'...
As far as I see it there is 1. wild camping where you genuinely leave no trace and your activity is almost invisible to others and and 2. camping inconsiderately/leaving lots of trace in the form of rubbish, fires, noise or overlong stays. The people doing the former are generally different people from those doing the latter.
It is relatively difficult to argue that type 1 Should be banned or illegal in itself. Type 2 should obviously be illegal and in places with access laws/codes it usually is.
It is a shame that the solution to stopping type 2 (which would be illegal in any properly organised access arrangement) is to ban type 1 camping. In other words people try to ban something that is already legal (messy camping) by banning something else (leave no trace camping).
Most of us who wild camp responsibly will carry on anyway without issue; albeit a bit more nervously given that there has been attention drawn to camping due to the Dartmoor ruling.
I do wish, however, that the rest of the UK would follow something like the Scottish Outdoor Access Code. It would need, however, significant levels of education and enforcement to explain that the right to wildcamp doesn’t mean you can do what you want. That education and enforcement is the key to making sure that people who behave stupidly/ignorantly don’t provide ‘the powers that be’ an excuse to take away the rights that an access code would give us.
As said above, what about scout, DofE and youth groups who go out for a weekend? Or groups training in the lead up to Ten Tors? When I was a teen we did a lot of weekends on Dartmoor training (Ten Tors was a good excuse for teachers to get the school to cough up enough cash to pay for 5-10 weekends camping that they normally wouldn’t have) and we just camped all over the moors. I’m sure the actual Ten Tors event will continue but that’s only 1 weekend a year.
It sets an unfortunate precedent for all Dartmoor landowners. Many might allow it to continue as before, but the point is that they don’t have to.
@Thecaptain - I know, but there’s always hope.
It was never about stopping some people from camping on his land because they make a mess, it’s about not paying for HIS glamping, etc. He’s an extremely wealthy example of a NIMBY (Not in my backyard), ‘why should people be allowed to do wheat they want, only I should be allowed to do what I want’.
duplicate
Cougar
Full MemberDoes rather raise the question, “what is it then?”
More than that I'd say it raises the same question for other things. If camping's not recreation, how about cycling? It's for fitness innit, that's not recreation. I know this is ridiculous, but it's no more ridiculous than camping.
As a local this has made me so unbelievably sad. Loads of memories wild camping up there. Stopped for few years due to little kids. Oldest now 9, was thinking of introducing them to it. Can't be dealing with range hassle when I have a little 1 in tow.
F*ck the tories and the corrupt mates.
Maybe it's time to move to Scotland, as a nurs emy wife would gey a reasonable pay rise and no higher ed fees for kids either
I think that the term ‘wild camp’ needs to be elaborated.
A ‘wild camp’ site should be at least x many miles from a main road.
Just to deter car owners from hauling in loads of disposable bbq’s, etc.
That was always the problem at Loch Lomond. Car owners, not walkers.
If they have to walk/ cycle for miles to reach a wild camp spot, they’re going to do so as efficaciously as possible.
Take the car out of the equation and people are more selective about what they carry.
I think that the term ‘wild camp’ needs to be elaborated.
In Ireland, some of the national parks officially permit 'wild camping' and have specific inf on this, including, for Wicklow Mountains National Park:
"Camp at least 500m from a road capable of carrying a vehicle and at least 500m from a building."
https://www.nationalparks.ie/wicklow/things-to-do/
Montgomery’s pics highlight the lack of fauna in between the trees.
I wouldn’t necessarily say that the forestry plantation owners have trashed the joint, but they could make amends by restoring the habitat by legally cultivating hemp.
Though, not at the taxpayers expense!
As for grouse shooting, I’ve never seen the attraction.
I’m hardly at the loftiest end of academia, but I doubt I’d find much in the way of scintillating conversation on such a sojourn.
It’s a bit of a cliche, but just as with staffy owners, you know that you can dispense with formalities like ‘doctor’ or ‘professor’, and just insert more casual titles like ‘bubba’ or ‘kappa’.
And I don’t buy into the gamekeepers are harmless.
The Scottish wildcat is pretty much extinct up here.
There’s a lot of genial old men within gamekeeing. And a staggering amount of wee shits too!
Never has the term ‘nail that coc*sucker’ been more appropriate:
LSD has demonstrated a remarkable ability to turn around the lifestyles of hardened criminals.
Perhaps it’s time to legally restart clinical trials…
