edited post cos i pressed the wrong ' button.
Yes - Last in, first out is still an acceptable [& legal] way of selecting those for redundancy
In some ways it makes life easy for HR but they have to be careful if there are lots of employees that have been there a long time as they could end up getting rid of all one age group & being at risk of a claim for age discrimination.
Certainly agree things will get harder, but that has to be her decision, not her employers. Fair enough if both parties agreed, amicably, to less hours etc, but to dump this on her without proper consultation is just wrong - and precicely why women have the protection under law against such action. IMO.
Well she has just come out of her follow-up meeting and her boss said 'it was a sound business decision - you don't have any projects on and we can't give you any more because you are pregnant'. And it has been minuted
So that (in my opinion) seems like they have firmly put their foot in it and accepted that she was discriminated against on the basis of her pregnancy.
And her boss also said that she was the prime candidate due to her circumstances and the service industry that they are in expect someone to see a job through.
Well my wife has now seen a specialist employment lawyer and she says that she has a very good case for both unfair and sexual discrimination.
We will be seeking a settlement on appeal but will take it to a tribunal if we have to.
Stuff 'em - they can't treat people the way they have done. They even did their matrix scoring against two people - one of which left to go to another job almost a year ago!!!!!!
mastiles...i feel your pain mate. My Wife is also under the cosh so to speak. The situation is muddled even further by the fact the other two girls in her department are also pregnant!
We both work in the same office and i'm entering my consultation period. Not nice for the wife's stress levels (or my own).
Just as an aside for those who rubished the "last in, first out" comments:
"Your employer can look at all employees’ length of service with the company, and select those with the shortest service (the last ones to join)." Taken from the Government Website - It is possible as long as certain criteria are met.
All the best...Fight the Power!!! 😕
Companies like to use last in/first out to minimise redundancy payouts, not because they think it's fair.
Good luck with this, keep us posted!
Mastiles - glad you have found your way to a lawyer (a good one, I hope). Good luck with the claim and remember, if the stress gets too great, it isn't worth making any of you, your wife or your twins to come(!) ill over.
Let me know if you need any more info.
Tom
Wunundred.
Ourman - after speaking it through with my wife's dad, he recommended the lawyers he uses (he runs his own business so deals with them lots) - it is Raworth's in Harrogate - not really big players but they have a specialist employment lawyer and she seemed confident that, after what has been said, we have a very good case. Next meeting is on Thursday morning where my wife will be just listening and seeing if she can trip them up any more on record, then she will finish by confirming she cannot accept the unsuitable alternative job they offered (less hours/pro rata salary - and they even wanted to backdate the salary to the beginning of February)!!!!
And I agree - we won't put the health of my wife or the twin terrors at risk - we are hoping that we will be able to settle with them before any tribunal, but the concern is that her boss is a real b*tchhound and will not like it one bit that someone ha the guts to stand up to her - she just assumes everyone will roll over to her demands.
Well - that's that then. She had her meeting today and she has gone. Funny though - after telling her she would only get statutory (one month notice + 3 weeks statutory basic payment for her three years there) they told her she would actually get 1 month notice + 3 MONTHS tax free severence pay.
I think they have tried to sweeten her so she doesn't pursue anything.
We are thinking through our options now...
Go for the jugular mastiles! They have behaved outrageously and illegally and they know it. You should be able to get thousands more out of them without any trouble - she has lost most of her maternity pay and will not be able to get another job at the moment so she has a material loss which is what a tribunal compensates for.
Dear god I am agreeing with TJ the shame 🙁 but he's right you have them by the nuts and the money is going to have to last quite a while so get your solicitor to write them a letter and see what they up their offer to.
We had a nanny many years ago who got pregnant. She decided to leave thank goodness! We were legally obliged to keep her job open, or offer her an equivalent position. We would have needed to pay here maternity pay too. There would have been some government support with this as I recall, but I cannot remember the deatil. Things may have changed since then.
We went through the process of seeking advice, but never needed it. I think the nanny was realistic in that we, as a working coule on average salaries, could not afford two nannies (we could hardly afford one!) and that she could not have done her job properly with her own baby in tow. I felt terrible about the predicament, but as I said earlier, she left of her own accord, we did not make her life difficult and she did nor pursue us for constructive dismissal. I believe she set up her own nursery and everything worked out in the end.
Your wife's employer has clearly discriminated against her and by saying that she is "gone", I assume she has been made redundant. I would have no qualms about making a claim for unfair dismissal! The Law is there to protect vulnerable mothers to be!
I read in this thread that she had been told on numerous ocassions not to get pregnant. The employer knows that they can't dictate which employee procreates! It's none of their damn business! If they took her on, they will have known the risks at that time and the laws on sexual discrimination and pregnancy. They were clearly happy to employ her because she was going to help their business.
I'd definitely recommend getting a lawyer on the case. Get someone who has a lot of experience in employment tribunals.
I hope the pregancy goes well and that the stress doesn't affect her, or the baby's health! You obviously need to take everyone's wellbeing into account whatever your decision.
Good luck!
They acted illegally and immorally. Slam them!
mastiles - well, that's a start, but TJ (and Spongebob, he of two nannies) are right: they have materially disadvantaged, discriminated on the basis of her pregnancy and therefore unfairly dimissed her.
Kick them in the goolies. And wee in their shoes.
Absolutely - clearly they know they are up a creek in a leaking boat with no paddle and have tried to weedle out of it by appeasing her. But at least now we have a cash sum that will leave us no more disadvantaged than we would have been had she not been made redundant - obviously though it doesn't take into account the loss of benefits and having no job to walk back into.
We are going to have a think about it and see what our solicitor says - but I do think that a nice letter from them may make her ex-employers think again about what severance pay she receives.
That's the opening offer, you should be looking for much more if she's going to walk away.
I guess so - but with the onset of twins, does she want to stress herself out?.....
Apart from cash compensation, they will be duty bound to offer her her original job back when here maternity period ends. If this is not available, an alternative equivalent must be pffered with no reduction in pay.
I agree with the rest of the choir - go after them. Not actually a particularly generous offer at all given she'd have got of the order of 3 months pay (depending how much she earns and therefore what proportion of that 33 weeks of £117 is) during her maternity! No particular reason to worry what they might think now they've got rid of her anyway - you should nail them to the wall.
I wouldnt let them away with it..
My workmate and friend got some serious grief from the company owner (bitch)
Nothing against women bosses,,im all for them.
He had them over a barrel and decided not to go through with it. Things got real nasty in and out of work with the bickering and fighting , and eventually the fuzz were called.
He eventually left the job two weeks later. A job he liked and done for ten years and was profitable for his family,,,
The point im trying to make is...They made sure he could not get a job in the same buisness again..(employers are real reluctant to take people on thats went to tribunals with previous employers)(make sure it doesnt happen to you) and he hasnt worked in it since and that was 5 year ago.. HE ALWAYS WISHES HE HAD TOOK THEM THE FULL HOG so to speak as his life and health have suffered greatly for it. SO DO IT.TAKE THEM ON and good luck, YOU THE MISSUS AND THE KIDS !
Has she got the offer of severence in writing yet?
Mf, be very careful with this now, as if she has even so much as verbally accepted their offer, it could well constitute acceptance of a compromise agreement, particularly if they have followed it up in writing - that should have a timeframe in which you can refute acceptance, similar to that when tendering a verbal resignation.
If this is the case and agreement has been reached, if you wanted to pursue it further, legs to stand on and heather mills comes to mind.
Interesting point PK - will check she didn't 'accept' the offer.
When I went thru an acrimonious redundancy I could not accept formally the agreement I had negotiated until I had seen a solicitor - so I doubt she will have made any formal acceptance in the eyes of the law.
she said 'okay' when told they were going to pay the money, but it wasn't put to her it was a final offer.
MF - having been down the unfair dismissal route a few times on both sides of the fence I would really try and get it resolved without having to go to a tribunal. It doesn't matter whether your case is a strong one it will still be a very stressful time; which given your wife's condition is something to be avoided.
Also I would check with the solicitor about what the likely costs will be just so that you don't end up out of pocket.
Finally make sure that any correspondence is copied to the head office/parent company, HR magaer or even MD, to make they are aware of the situation. This was one of the best pieces of advice given to me by my solicitor - as the people responsible for your wife being made redundant will be emotionally involved and want to prove they are right. Somebody at a more senior level from the parent company/head office will usually make a more rational and objective assessment and look for a quick resolution.
Sound advice tyke!
Don't forget this is discrimination and the compensation award is now unrestricted in the event of a favourable tribunal decision. Start at a years money and go from there.
Nail them to the wall and then back it up with screws and adhesive!
How many weeks pregnant will your wife be when the 1 months notice period ends?
When half my department was made redundant 2 years ago, one of my colleagues was pregnant. There was no issue of discrimination- we were all at risk & she didn't apply for the few roles left. However, she found out that if you're pregnant & made redundant x amount of weeks before your EDD you're entitled to the mat pay you would have received had you continued in employment (and still get redundancy).
I can't remember the cut off number of weeks. It may have been at the earliest point when you can elect to got on mat leave. This wasn't noted in her at risk letter & where they calculate the potential payoff. When she asked our local HR dept about the mat pay they said she wasn't entitled, so she provided the relevant documents (probably from govt websites). They didn't have a clue and had to get head office HR to confirm this was the case and I think they even had to do a lot of research rather than knew the answer outright. And this was at a large company (one of the ones saying sorry this week!)
Hope it all gets resolved in your favour. My wife & are are in the same position- I was made redundant last year & she's expecting, so we know what it's like for you.
FB-ATB...
She is in her 22nd week on Monday which would have made her eligible for company mat pay as she would be working her 4 weeks notice up to the 26th week (the cut off point).
So they got out of it (conveniently) by two working days.
Also good advice Tyke - many thanks.
v good advice from tyke about the copy correspondence. It will certainly focus the decision making away from those who now find themselves in the sh*t, and may assist in altering future practices for the benefit of rewmaining workers.
I agree Ourmn - discussing this with my wife last night and her over-riding feeling was that her boss cannot be allowed to behave in such a manner and feelsshe needs to do something to bring it to the attention of the board of directors. She is seeing her solicitor again today to discuss our options. At the very least I think we will be writing a letter of appeal logging every comment made by her boss.
The one thing she is really upset about is the colleague who scored the highest in the matrix (even though she shouldn't have been able to see names but that is just another occk up by her ex-employers) is the one that they tried to demote before Christmas due to is ineptitude and he has (since then) also lost the company £30k due to a occk up entirely of his own making. So it just proves that the scoring was rigged (he scored higher in the areas outlined above).
Well, well, well... We have come back from a long-arranged holiday in Newquay to find out that following her appeal hearing (where she was gunning for a decent payout) they have offered her her job back and have asked her to return the slightly enhanced redundancy payment they gave her initially. They have also sacked her boss. Don't know much more yet (ie what job she would return to, how the redundant position is suddenly available again etc)
Thing is - she is now 29 weeks pregnant (with twins) so she would only be staying at work for a week or two more anyway.
What a crock and what a mess.
Mibbe they're gonna offer her the boss's job?
LOL no such luck - there was another director who has been promoted.
Result!
excellent!
Good to hear that things were 'sorted' ... the f*ckers will try anything!
jt
Excellent. Get them for all you can while she's on maternity and then don't go back anyway!!
Now just wait for the really tricky bit, twins.........
Glad it all worked out and sleep as much as you can before they pop out.
Great result!