€1.29 per litre for diesel in rural Spain just now, which equates to £1.12 per litre at my banks exchange rate of €1.16 to £1.
Pauly
Free Member
€1.29 per litre for diesel in rural Spain just now, which equates to £1.12 per litre at my banks exchange rate of €1.16 to £1.
fuel duty in Spain is only 37.9€c/l or approx 32ppl so 26ppl cheaper before VAT -so closer to £1.42/L by comparison - they're also probabyl still getting through old stocks.
the people who NEED discouraging (driving 500m to work, we all know them
Bit of a misconception this I think. People who drive really short distances use a lot of fuel per mile, but actually use up very little overall because the miles are so low. I've been sent 200 miles away for a 2hr meeting on numerous occasions, manager's whim for one day represents 3 months of someone doing a 2 mile commute.
‘So high’?
Do you mean ‘why is petrol unsustainably cheap? And why have successive governments continued to hold duty on it since about 2011’?
Why is petrol unsustainably cheap, exactly?
prettygreenparrot
Full Member
‘So high’?
Do you mean ‘why is petrol unsustainably cheap? And why have successive governments continued to hold duty on it since about 2011’?
becasue it would risk exponential inflation and reduce social mobility at a time when austerity was kicking in and now covid.
So not everyone has choice, and not everyone can just turn round and choose not to drive.
The choice was made for you by successive governments pushing car use and not investing in public transport. Ultimately, it will take government action to reverse this.
Local shops closed because more people started driving, so now you need to drive to get to the non-local shops.
Sorry for the long post – quite a lot to cover..
yours the petrol pump attendant..
Very interesting, and a lot more in depth than my rudimentary knowledge! I guess you work in the industry...? 🤔
Points ref stoich ratio’s, again broadly correct, however ethanol is not the only component in fuel that will have an impact, any oxygenate , including ethers and methyl’s will reduce the energy density (lower heating value/net calorific value), this is where depending on the operating conditions set within the ECU, you either loose power, or loose range.
Considering we have full grown adults on this thread arguing that "petrol is petrol" and saying that higher performance fuels such as Shell V-Power are snake oil, I didn't want to confuse things even more! 😂 But honestly, I have learnt quite a bit from your last post myself... I calculated the theoretical stoich ratios making assumptions that the fuel was only made up of petrol and ethanol, which I know it isn't. It also explains why when you see engine tuners' rolling road maps these days, if they have an exhaust gas analyser output too, they are aiming for stoich ratios in the low to mid 13's most of the time which is some 8-10% richer than they would have aimed 20 years ago!
I've always found the science behind petrol quite intriguing (I grew up with the 1980's F1 tubro era, the concept of them literally running liquid dynamite as fuel really impressed the kid in me), as petrol engines cover a huge range of operating parameters as you have pointed out. Diesel engines tend to be a lot more consistent in terms of useage range, using the same fuel in a 600cc motorbike that redlines at 16krpm and produces 200bhp per litre specific output as in a big block American V8 truck engine that redlines at 4krpm and produces maybe 35bhp per litre specific output, just doesn't make any sense to me! 🤷🏻♂️ Add in the common misconception that higher octane means higher performance (when in reality, it doesn't mean this at all), and arguably if the petrol industry just made more suitable fuels and marketed them well (several decades ago ideally!), then we could all have been more fuel efficient for quite some time now... 🤔
I understand that the price was driven up during the fuel shortage (probably because they could), but it hasn’t dropped at all despite there actually being no problem with supply…
the 'shortage' was a problem of supply logistics, there wasn't a shortage of fuel, the fuel just wasn't where customers needed it. Solving the problem of delivery cost money which is why prices went up - continuing to have that solution in place will continue to cost money.
But theres maybe the opportunity for a price correction for retailers just now too. Supermarkets have been selling fuel as a loss leader for over a decade - partly to compete between themselves but also because supermarkets don't want you to go anywhere else and they can best achieve that by ensuring you don't have anywhere else to go by driving indpendent retail out of business. They don't think theres money to be made from selling fuel, they think theres more money to be made from selling groceries if shoppers don't go anywhere else for fuel.
The filling stations you see with 'Shell' 'BP' or whatever on them are independents, they're not part of those big oil companies - they sell that brand of fuel but they're an independent retailer. The price war between supermarkets is so fierce that other retailers, even though they are more expensive are often only make about £1 profit on a tank of fuel. The supermarkets don't need to make anything at all from fuel sales. Their strategy has been to sell fuel at cost or less until theres no competition - at that point they can sell fuel for as much as they like.... or once the independents are gone they can just decide not to sell it.
Problem is - electric cars have evolved - fuel sales will drop, and the cost of sale per tank of fuel is going to increase. That future monopoly the supermarkets were banking on is evaporating. Theres no point in retailers squeezing their margins anymore they may as well charge what their service costs now.
So not everyone has choice, and not everyone can just turn round and choose not to drive.
And thus you should pay a penalty to discourage everyone from living the simple life idyll whilst commuting to work elsewhere.
FWIW that sounds gloriously metropolitan compared to where I grew up 🤣 Buses on a Tuesday, the luxury!
Did a 100,000 on Morrisons petrol and my car (golf) ran as well as the day I bought it. Until a royal mail HGV ended it's life.
they are aiming for stoich ratios in the low to mid 13’s most of the time which is some 8-10% richer than they would have aimed 20 years ago!
That would be the 'Paris Hilton' tuning methodology!
Part of what makes the OE modern small turbo, boosty, high compression engines so clever these days is how good they are at managing ignition timing and sensing knock etc. This is why the high octane fuel is good for them - lots of timing advance unlocks power (not the fuel itself as per Sui above!) and they lean burn a lot when they can.
What is interesting though is that from my experience an ECU will pull timing very quickly if it senses knock, but only advances and trims back leaner very gradually - this is why there's little point in people giving their car a "special treat" of 99 every tenth tank.
The filling stations you see with ‘Shell’ ‘BP’ or whatever on them are independents, they’re not part of those big oil companies – they sell that brand of fuel but they’re an independent retailer. The price war between supermarkets is so fierce that other retailers, even though they are more expensive are often only make about £1 profit on a tank of fuel. The supermarkets don’t need to make anything at all from fuel sales. Their strategy has been to sell fuel at cost or less until theres no competition – at that point they can sell fuel for as much as they like…. or once the independents are gone they can just decide not to sell it.
The true independents went years ago, thanks to Essos 'Price Watch' campaign of the mid 90's. I know because I was a casualty. I was doing ok even against the supermarkets but then Esso came along & started selling fuel for 5p a litre cheaper than I could buy it for. The supermarkets went along with it as did the majors but the small indy's like me couldn't compete. It sounded the death knell of 100's of rural petrol stations.
The big brand sites you see now are either company owned or franchised & have price support in place to compete with nearby outlets.
@SUI. There's only room for one petrol pump attendant round here.
Circa 1984 ish.
https://flic.kr/p/bYrxbL
To make cyclists feel good and distract them from their hobby's sharp price rises over the last few years. 😉
That’s a great photo.
Rural drivers having to drive further to get fuel wasn’t a step in the right direction, it was a loss.
I had a similar vintage 240GL about 12-13 years ago - it was awesome! It was like steering a slow moving tanker through sludge..
This suggests the sticky downward pricing mentioned up the thread is happening...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59508286
Also, I wonder whether the panic buying back in September has created a greater sense of value around fuel? That part of us still just feels lucky to get it at all?
this is why there’s little point in people giving their car a “special treat” of 99 every tenth tank.
Yes agree with that in terms of engine timing but there other additives in the fuel designed to keep your car sparking clean and running smooth from pump to exhaust so I think there is still benefit in the occasional top up of fancy fuel. Not high octane stuff from Tesco but the fancy stuff from Shell / BP etc ...
