[Closed] Why should we save the NHS?

Ask a non-brainwashed American, if you can find one.

bbc seem to have a party line to toe on their reporting of it;

[img] [/img]

[edit] although interestingly doesn't mention if they're committed to keeping it free at the point of delivery...

@Drac, nice post, wonderful speech.

As it stands the NHS needs changing. It can be argued that the Tories are saving the NHS as without change it's going to wither away. Perhaps a system like France where the better off (ie most of the middle class) buy private health insurance to ease the burden on the state sector and also importantly its is not free at the point of use, this raises important funds but more importantly it cuts down time-wasters especially at the GP care level.

I do find a certain irony that we spend £1000,s on bike and expect the NHS to pay for our broken collar bones, wrists etc when we try a jump and get it wrong. We can afford insurance, we should pay for it.

BTW - Ed's planning to save the NHS with £2.5bn - which is about an increase 2% of it's annual budget (circa £120bn). If its as dire as Labour claim an amount such as this is going to make no difference.

I do find a certain irony that we spend £1000,s on bike and expect the NHS to pay for our broken collar bones, wrists etc when we try a jump and get it wrong. We can afford insurance, we should pay for it.

Healthcare should be free at point of care not based on insurance.

It can be argued that the Tories are saving the NHS as without change it's going to wither away.

It really can't.

@Drac, we will have to agree to differ. As I said in left wing France health care is not free at the point of use and it is based upon insurance. Many here think their system is better, me included based on my experience there with my knee injury and living there for 12 months.

My lot treat all patients equally, of course - but it's a huge privilege to help look after the men and women of his generation. They've done their bit, we should do ours.

As for the NHS - it's certainly not perfect, by any stretch. But the incumbent bunch are actually wrecking the things it [i]can[/i] do well. Stuff at the sharp-end gets done because we [by which I mean: hospitals, specialties, teams, individuals] [i]co-operate[/i] with each other - the rhetoric of "choice & competition" tends to amount to FA in acute care. IMO, the current (& un-mandated) re-org (which they said wouldn't happen) amounts to an act of ideological vandalism, aided in no small part by a disingenuous media campaign (e.g. the utterly mis-leading [i]Daily Failograph[/i] coverage of the CHKS "award" for Hinchingbrooke). Despite DoH's protestations to the contrary, it's obvious that services are being privatised (with the "NHS" as a kind of kitemark), the net result being that routine (i.e. easy) and elective activity is being cherry-picked by the private sector (Circle, Virgin, Care_UK etc), leaving NHS acute care to do the heavy lifting. It's partly why emergency depts are now rammed to capacity.

NuLab have plenty to answer for, too - not least PFI.

without change it's going to wither away

One could equally argue that the "change" currently being foisted upon the NHS is designed to speed up its demise - thus far, the reforms are proving to be an expensive disaster. I'm certainly not opposed to change, but not when it's as bludy stupid and muddleheaded as the 2012 HaSC Act, which has actually managed to [i]increase[/i] bureaucratic faff at the expense of frontline services. And in some respects, the [better-invested] continental social-insurance systems merely swap one set of problems for another.

As I said in left wing France health care is not free at the point of use and it is based upon insurance

We'll never agree then if you think that is better.

in left wing France health care is not free at the point of use and it is based upon insurance.

And have you seen what the toerags charge for a bottle of painkillers and a sling?

The only people health insurance helps are insuranace firms and private medical providers.

You're entitled to your opinion but fortunately the vast majority of the UK disagrees with you.

@Drac, we will have to agree to differ. As I said in left wing France health care is not free at the point of use and it is based upon insurance. Many here think their system is better, me included based on my experience there with my knee injury and living there for 12 months.

The problem with this is genomics and data security. You can bet your arsehole that in 25 years, every private company on the planet will be able to get hold of your genetic information if they really want and that will effect your insurance premiums.

The other problem is that insurance only works well if it's done right and those that can't afford insurance either due to poverty or due to chronic illness are cared for. It get's to a point, like in the states where they have medicaid etc that the whole system becomes less value for money for those at the bottom and at the top and you start to think what the hell is the point.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2011/aug/07/nhs-among-most-efficient-health-services

The other problem with your assessment, is that the NHS is actually more efficient than France.

****ing hell jambo could you be any more stupid?

The ideology of free healthcare for all was the backbone of post war Britain, without it, where are we?

Jambalaya, it would seem a lot French residents disagree with you;

[img] [/img]

from an excellent article here;

[url= http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/11/18/wonkbook-change-is-painful-but-the-health-care-status-quo-is-a-complete-disaster/ ]http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/11/18/wonkbook-change-is-painful-but-the-health-care-status-quo-is-a-complete-disaster/[/url]

We do pay insurance, in the form of tax. It is based on affordability rather than risk, this is why NHS is ranked no1 in the world on fairness.

Insurance base systems have much bigger transactions costs and more fraud. So, as a population, it costs more for any given amount of care all else being equal ie medic salaries etc

I think the Fench system is a combination of state and insurance provision, as I understand it you must either have state or insurance cover depending on your work status, and the insurance covers co-payments. Ithink. Wiki suggests french healtcare us sustantiallt government funded

ht[url= http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_France ]tp://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_France
[/url]

BTW - Ed's planning to save the NHS with £2.5bn - which is about an increase 2% of it's annual budget (circa £120bn). If its as dire as Labour claim an amount such as this is going to make no difference.

I agree it needs more maybe the £9bn from Tobacco. It's still better than the Tories plans.

We do pay insurance, in the form of tax. It is based on affordability rather than risk, this is why NHS is ranked no1 in the world on fairness.

A contribution that for a service you've used long before you start paying for it.

As for the NHS - it's certainly not perfect, by any stretch. But the incumbent bunch are actually wrecking the things it can do well. Stuff at the sharp-end gets done because we [by which I mean: hospitals, specialties, teams, individuals] co-operate with each other - the rhetoric of "choice & competition" tends to mean FA in acute care. IMO, the current (& un-mandated) re-org (which they said wouldn't happen) amounts to an act of ideological vandalism

It should be remembered that parties of every colour have a long and proud history of radically reorganising the NHS on approximately a five-year cycle.

http://nhstimeline.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/ is a great way of seeing just what has happened in recent decades, and you can judge for yourself where the rot set in, and how.

Many of the ideas you criticise - choice and competition, supported by poorly-judged league tables - were introduced by the previous incumbents, along with the expensive drift from one commissioning body and newfangled approach to another.

The warnings about NHS austerity were flying about well before the tories got in in 2010.

So you'll have to excuse me as I fail to get excited about yet another party conference where lots of earnest politicians stand up and claim to be the only ones in the position to 'save the NHS'.

I have no doubt that if Labour gets in next year, the eternal political football will start being booted around again.

Drac,

Where do you stand on dementia.

Where do you stand on dementia.

In what sense?

Many of the ideas you criticise...

Yes, totally - and the ConDem reforms enlarge upon them... NuLav introduced ISTCs, for example. Sometimes these provided useful extra capacity... but mostly it amounted to healthcare corps being paid over the odds for a lower volume of less-complex work.

The tragedy of the NHS being used as a political football is that successive Govs have wrecked its ability to provide a cost-effective service (e.g. at historically-lower than continental cost). At the same time, glib talk of improving patient (i.e. consumer) power via market (or pseudo-market) reform is actually achieving the exact opposite!

I don't have the answers, but I'm very clear on one thing: [i]Daily Fail[/i] "journalists" should be made to work on the wards. 😈

I think we could provide a far better health service for much less if we start with a fundamental paradigm shift - moving towards preventative approaches as opposed to the modern decadent mindframe which too often expects a nanny state to fix things - you can't eat crap all your life take no exercise and remain spiritually redundant and make it through life without issues - But whilst the NHS is joined at the hip with Big Pharmaceutical industries a more mindful approach doesn't seem feasible.. Yes state provision of healthcare is a model all societies should aspire to - But not at the expense of negating individual responsibility.. Case in point I was once referred for physio due to a recurring knee pain - I was eligible for 10 sessions - but all the exercises they 'taught' me I could and did learn of my own back - So obviously those physio sessions were a waste of money ..

In the sense of it not being NHS covered

Moving towards preventative approaches as opposed to the modern decadent mindframe

It's been moving towards preventive for many years now.

The Tories are destined to destroy the NHS as it stands, only those with wealth will be able to afford the basic healthcare.

how come a moderator is allowed to make a politically opinionated statement like this?

Is this the view of Singletrack magazine - maybe you should use a different account to make such statements, or a different account to moderate from ?

If you mean how do we cover the cost of an aging population. I think there is stuff to be done in terms of intergrating health and social care.

But ultimately the costs are going to be big and similar amount whether it is funded by tax, families or both. For me it's a question about what sort of society we want.

Personally, I think the tax route is most efficient and certainly most fair, but there has to be some recognition of wealth wrapped up in assets (houses basically) if we go fully funded care via tax route.

In the sense of it not being NHS covered

I take it you're talking about the social care of dementia patients on a daily basis not the treatment of it. Tough one that but the NHS doesn't really take social care of many conditions on a daily basis though does it, so why should dementia be any different. Social Services is responsible for daily care.

how come a moderator is allowed to make a politically opinionated statement like this?

Ermm! Because it's not against the rules.

how come a moderator is allowed to make a politically opinionated statement like this?

Yes, I mean won't somebody think of the impressionable children.

Drac is a senior Paramedic - as long as he defers to the nursing staff, he can say whatever he likes. 😀

Social Services is responsible for daily care.

Ironic how the buzzword is always "integration" - and yet services are becoming increasingly fragmented.

how come a moderator is allowed to make a politically opinionated statement like this?

Is this the view of Singletrack magazine - maybe you should use a different account to make such statements, or a different account to moderate from ?

Get over yourself darling.

Drac is a senior Paramedic - as long he defers to the nursing staff, he can say whatever he likes.

Hahaha! I wish. As a Paramedic I have to be very careful what I say on public forums. Oh and less of the Senior.

"Tough one that but the NHS doesn't really take social care of many conditions on a daily basis though does it" - I actually don't know, can you give me some examples.

Also maybe I should have asked - should people have to pay(somewhat complicated rules/means tested etc) for social care but get 'medical'(word possibly used incorrectly) care *free* at point of usage

Fantastic clip from Drac,I had the same model and age as Harry Smith, he was my dad.He went through similar things and always believed in the NHS.

The NHS was fought hard to get and maintain, with free treatments for all,even some that should be privately funded.

But what we need is a root and branch examination of every aspect ofthe NHS, to reduce costs and management staffing,if youre ill you need a nurse dr or therapist, not an acountant counting how many bandages you have used, also with more sharing of responsibilities, more cross training in skilled jobs and less job demarkation in lots of departments, same as has happened in lots of indusries uk and world wide,instead we have empire building, and splitting off of units and departments to make easily sold ready made and fully equiped and staffed companies, same as happened to British Rail.

Please support your NHS, say thank you to the staff, attend rallies,make sure your mp knows you want a fully funded and free NHS.

The most telling sign that the Tories are privatising the health service is the competition rules.

That's right, state providers have to compete with each other.
Massive improvements provided by collaboration between services are now not permitted.
Departments whose skills are in treating patients rather then marketing are forced to waste time tending for contracts.

Competition always driving efficiency is ideological bullsh!t.

The only concern of the current government is that not enough of their mates are getting rich out of UK health provision!

I actually don't know, can you give me some examples.

MS, Stroke Patients, Heart Disease, Paraplegics the list goes on.

Also maybe I should have asked - should people have to pay(somewhat complicated rules/means tested etc) for social care

You can get an awful lot of social support but you're right it is means tested, not sure about that one though if it's right or not. However you can get a great deal of Social support no matter what you circumstances.

Perhaps an element of insurance and insurance assessment would be a good idea - if someone makes the conscious decision to live an unhealthy lifestyle and 'eat all the pies' and not exercise, why should everyone else pay for the risks they are taking ?

Administration would be a nightmare though, so maybe the only answer is taxing sugary foods, etc?

less of the Senior

OK, "Drac is a Paramedic of respectable age & experience." 😳

The political football thing is only get worse - especially if the public aren't convinced by service re-configurations (even if undertaken for sound reasons - e.g. consolidation of acute care, "all-in-one-place" etc). We already have MPs voting for one thing in the Commons, and then opposing such changes in their own constituencies. 🙄

Competition always driving efficiency is ideological bullsh!t.

As epitomised by CMD waving around a [url= http://www.allysonpollock.com/?p=98 ]pretty dodgy LSE paper[/url] as justification for the re-org clusterfug (IIRC, the paper mis-handled data on acute MI). In short, it will never be like going to the supermarket.

Unfortunately, Monitor is now full of seconded suits whose job it is to enforce the ideological BS... regardless of reality!

OK, "Drac is a Paramedic of respectable age & experience."

😀

We already have MPs voting for one thing in the Commons, and then opposing such changes in their own constituencies.

It'll never change.

Perhaps an element of insurance and insurance assessment would be a good idea - if someone makes the conscious decision to live an unhealthy lifestyle and 'eat all the pies' and not exercise, why should everyone else pay for the risks they are taking ?

So only the sporty types should get free health care. Why should the pie eaters have to pay tax for you fall of your bike and break you arm?

I'm sure Harry Smith is a good Labour chap but his analysis is utterly wrong. The NHS is a minor player in the improvements seen in health over the last 80 years; new drugs, technology, improved living conditions etc have all played a much bigger role.

We are ending up with a 2 tier system regardless as more and more private companies take out medical insurance for their employees. The NHS won't last as it is for another 20 years regardless of who is in power.

I've worked with kids on welfare in the USA, the NHS is in a different league

The NHS is a minor player in the improvements seen in health over the last 80 years; new drugs, technology, improved living conditions etc have all played a much bigger role.

And you still don't pay for them thanks to well the NHS which is also one of the big researchers for such things.

**** hell jambo could you be any more stupid?

It should be remembered that parties of every colour have a long and proud history of radically reorganising the NHS on approximately a five-year cycle.

After Miliband's speech there where some stats put up which showed that likley increases in NHS costs over the (5 or 10) years Milliband quoted as his horizon would be £30bn yet he thought £2.5bn was somehow going to "save the NHS"

The moderators can say what they like, frankly given the time and effort they put into this place they have more right to do so than the rest of us.

@Drac when I bust my knee the hospital visit cost about £20, each time I saw a special knee surgeon it was about £50, the MRI scan was £200 and I had it immediately at my request not months later after pestering a UK GP, the physio was £25 a session. All of this (ex hospital) was in Paris, ie expensive for France. Even if you double these amounts to reflect UK wages I still think it's good value and had I had health insurance I could have claimed it. BTW under the EU rules I am supposed to have been able to claim from the NHS but they declined my claim.

I am very much in favour of a strong well funded NHS, I think many of us here could afford to pay private/state top-up health insurance, the French do and they pay much higher rates of tax on lower wages. The insurance makes payments to the state hospitals/doctors not to private hospitals.

new drugs, technology, improved living conditions etc have all played a much bigger role.

And where do you think these new drugs, technologies and drive to improve living standards were conceived, tested, refined, trialed and implemented ?

Fine, but the NHS takes a lot of running and overhead and management costs in the NHS are some of the lowest in the, precisely because it is tax funed and payment systems are elatively simple.

Using your example, do you want nurses counting and ordering stock, or nursing. I'm not saying there aren't examples of aministrative inefficiency, but you need to be careful what you wish for. One of the big arguments of the right is that the NHS would be much more efficient if managed by private sector and driven by profit incentives.

I've worked with kids on welfare in the USA, the NHS is in a different league

Administration would be a nightmare though

It's partly why the [time/financial] costs of insurance systems can rocket. That's not to say that robust, "fair" (i.e. non-exclusive, comprehensive cover) systems can't be made to work a la the continent... but I'd say the current lot are more interested in opening the NHS up as some kind of new commercial frontier, with smooth talk of [i]"patients don't care who provides the care, as long as it's excellent"[/i] - er, except that many of those "willing providers" seem to be passing the buck back to the NHS.

Is medical insurance like any other insure?

i.e. its gerat if you never have to use it, or only use it once. But if you're unfortunate enough to have to make a couple of claims your premiums go through roof, even if you can get someone to sell you a policy.

And we are all going to need to make a claim under some sort compulsory health insurance at some time.

I just can see how it fits in with providing long term quality health care. Particulalry into old age.

Please support your NHS, say thank you to the staff, attend rallies,make sure your mp knows you want a fully funded and free NHS.

Careful what you wish for, that would bankrupt the Uk.

There has to be a stop point as to what is funded/not funded.

Even over the last 10 years it is now quite amazing what you get for 'free' on the NHS.

Social Care and Health are very closel linked. The NHS has for some years now been trying to change eating / drinking habits, with very little sucess.