£50m on teaching the history is fair enough.
And if a few old boys want to march to remember fallen friends, fair enough (though I guess they'll be WWII now), but if this turns into a military celebration then they will have missed the point so much.
No uniforms please, unless you retired from active service long ago, and no top brass unless they crawl penitently.
And if Brits and Germans etc can walk together I would approve.
Hmmm...suspect it may go something like this.
£50m to be used but none from the taxpayer, it will be sponsored! And, there will be a legacy.
Initial approach made to UK companies - Vickers, Tinsley Wire and JCB because of the brand association with the original event and JCB asked to set up a "dig your own trench system" experience.
Initial sponsors fail to man-up, so second tier sponsors sought. McD agree to sponsor the poppies but insist that The Haig Fund is re-branded the Ronald Fund and poppies to be red and yellow not red, black and green, they also are allowed to build a huge fast food outlet in the Lochnagar crater to feed the millions of visitors to the Battlefield Park, as the Somme will be renamed.
Kapoor will be brought into bring the Cenotaph into the 21st century with the installation of a twisted sculpture of metal and concrete (people attending the Remembrance Services can pay £10 each to ascend the new Cenotaph) the fees will pay for the £10m edifice over the next 20 years.
NAMCO BANDAI Games become the main sponsor for the trenches experience, visitors will enter the trenches and experience the terror of battle as a giant Pac Man chases them through the maze of trenches. They will be able collect gas masks and basic rations as they scramble through the suffocating mud.
The brand WWI will be subject to LOCOWW (there is a legal claim under way into the ownership of both World War brands, the first claim being that of the governments official organisers London Organising Committee Of World Wars). From the day of the awarding of the contract, no other organisation will be allowed to use the words World, War, the numerals I or II, 1 or 2 or any combination thereof. Also under embargo will be the words Haigh, Somme, Ypres, Passchendaele, no-man's-land, Tommy, Hun, Bosch.
People wanting to take part in the 2014 Remembrances will be aided and encouraged by a dedicated group of volunteers, who with typical British pluck and spirit, will march them off whistling "Goodbyee!" and "It a long way to Tiparrary", these helpers will be known as Warmakers.
Excellent post rtc 🙂
leffeboy - Member50 million or not, if you've never visited some of the 'Flanders fields' sites you should. It's hugely sobering in a way that is difficult to understand by just reading. One of them, sanctuary wood museum I think, has some 3d war photos that give an impression that really brings it home even though the museum is a scabby wee place ran by Jabba the hut.
Yep, that's Sanctuary Wood. Fascinating, dark and evocative place. Can't think of anywhere else we've found where you can walk through trenches which must be much as they were in WWI.
A 'Visitor Centre' at Tyne Cot? Oh, please no. We shan't be going back there - we've been three or four times anyway. In Flanders Fields Museum in Ieper is well worth a visit - the simulated gas attack is horrific when you think about what it must have been like.
There's a cemetery called Lijssenthoek Military Cemetery which has almost as many burials (~11,500) as Tyne Cot, but very few people go there. Much more peaceful.
Verdun is another story...
You're forgetting the Para-WW1 rtc, which will take place 3 weeks afterwards, is sponsored by ATOS and features George Osborne trying to smile while he gets boo'd by Para-troopers.
50m is absolute peanuts and if you were remotely aware of what a generation went through so that you can sit in luxury with the freedom to whinge then you just wouldn't ask. The fact that you have proves that much more needs to be spent educating much more than just a few school kids.
I actually believe you were being serious when you wrote that. 😐No uniforms please, unless you retired from active service long ago, and no top brass unless they crawl penitently.And if Brits and Germans etc can walk together I would approve.
I agree with the need to educate people about the Great War. I for one only recently found out that were it not for Germany supporting Finland in WW1, the Finnish may still be under the boot of the Russians.
IIRC that was "The Winter War". 1939-40, which would have put it in WWII, not WWI.
john_drummer - Member
I agree with the need to educate people about the Great War. I for one only recently found out that were it not for Germany supporting Finland in WW1, the Finnish may still be under the boot of the Russians.
IIRC that was "The Winter War". 1939-40, which would have put it in WWII, not WWI.
More importantly it was the lack of performance by the Red Army during that war that gave Hitler the confidence to take on the Russians.
I hope also in the education surrounding the events the part played by the various Royal Familys in starting WW1 and the reason it inevitably lead to WW2.
The fact also that the Russians paid a bigger part in the victory at the end of the day and why they feared the capitalism that backed both wars.
Unlikely the truth will be told even after the expense of fifty million, but I do support the education of kids in the hope nothing like it is ever allowed to occur again.
[i]In fact the only thing even remotely related to WW1 we learned at school was having a "scene" in the corner of the classroom with some WW1 kit and a sign which read "Arras Hole."
[/i]
Maybe you didn't do history at school? I covered the reasons for why WW1 started +30 years ago, and my son also did it last year - plus a school visit to the Somme battlefields and the Menin Gate.
And £50m probably wouldn't pay to have all the WW1 memorials washed and given a spruce up - and since we are borrowing £400m per day, whats £50m...
I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.
I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.
Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.
We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.
You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!
Germany has committed to spend 60m Euros, over 4 years, for the upkeep of the Auschwitz museum, so £50m isn't an awful lot for a whole war....
And if Brits and Germans etc can walk together I would approve.
The rest of what you said was rubbish but this is a fair point, Harry Patch, who as he was the first to admit was only remarkable for his longevity, had representatives from all sides at his funeral and I think this was an important statement.
My uncle hated Germans but he spent his service in WWII in the RAF in this country, my father fought them in the bocage of Normandy, he didn't.
bwaarp - MemberDon't care, do you think Cameron's plans will show how utterly futile dying for your country is? How Europe's elites sent millions of normal people to their deaths for the glory of which ever King or country? The depressing fact that at the end of the day it was all about property and we were just as guilty of kicking it off as Germany was?
No, instead it's going to be a load of nationalistic crap and all we're going to hear from the Tory press is how bad our youth are today compared to the youngsters who blindly walked into streams of hot lead.
I doubt it, I think it's going to be communities remembering the extreme sacrifices made, the incomprehensible number of casualties and a sober message about the futility of world war.
Jingoism about war is long since gone and the steady stream of the (not so) well publised casualties from Afganistan remind people of the price people pay.
as for the class war aspect, I suggest you google the casualty rates of officers in infantry regiments in either WW1 or WW2
50m is absolute peanuts and if you were remotely aware of what a generation went through so that you can sit in luxury with the freedom to whinge then you just wouldn't ask. The fact that you have proves that much more needs to be spent educating much more than just a few school kids.
Typical patriotic bollocks. Had we lost world war one or never even entered, Britain would still be here. Many of us would still be here. We'd still have a decent economy and we'd still be speaking English. Although I guess the EU might have been more integrated by now lol.
Germans would have never rocked up on our shores and committed an exercise in complete genocide of the English population.
They died for nothing, you can try to fancy they did die for something meaningful to perhaps add some optimism to your existence but at the end of the day you are totally and utterly wrong on this. This is going to be my problem with the remembrances, they are going to be portrayed as heroes who fought for their country. When in actual fact they were either gullible or to scared not to fight. Whole ****ing thing was about property and I say that having spent most of my youth reading a lot of the important books regarding both the world wars.
I had one grandfather who fought in world war 2, two uncles who fought on the somme and a grandfather in the RFC and every single one of them objected to war after and would never speak a thing about their experiences.
This is taken a bit out of context from the original essay but
"Men do not come together, as the Enlightenment teaches, for mutual cooperation and peaceful happiness; history makes it clear that they are never so united as when given a common altar upon which to immolate themselves" - Isaiah Berlin
Jingoism about war is long since gone and the steady stream of the (not so) well publised casualties from Afganistan remind people of the price people pay.
Except with Cameron I'll place a wager that this will be all about jingoism - "Look at those wonderful glorious men, if only our youth had that kind of courage". I'll happily admit it if I'm wrong but I feel it will be designed to cause a wave of emotional patriotism. "Support the troops" and all that bollocks, sod the current lot of troops - they chose to fight. For once I wish the media portrayed some of the troops like a few friends of mine as being the types that like fighting instead of doing it for their country (I actually have less of a problem with this, at least it's honest).
The tories are simply using the dead for political gain, which sickens me. If they really cared about soldiers they'd make sure they got better psych treatment when they got back home, or better equipment or better....etc etc ad nauseum
Personally, I am also so cynical that I feel Cameron probably misses the smell of mustard gas in the morning.
In fact just for lols, here's how apathetic soldiers are to the news.
http://www.arrse.co.uk/intelligence-cell/188777-ww1-centenary-rememberance-plans.html
Not many posts for arrse.
In particular I like
To be honest, I don't understand the significance of a centenary for this. Why a difference in remembrance between 2013, or 2015, or 1999, or 2019?To mark a centenary smacks somewhat of celebration. I'd prefer the simple ceremonial remembrance that we see every year.
Germany may not have rocked up and committed genocide in England, but their would have been a few more jews, gypsies and homosexuals shipped away to the gas ovens or perhaps you like that idea bwaarp ?
So, if it was just all about property and economics and would have turned out OK in the long run, perhaps we should give the Chinese and North Koreans a call and tell them it's cool to come and invade Europe, we need them really to help us out a bit ? Don't worry about all that state control no freedom, labour camps, summary executions of the wrong thinking etc. As long as they let us continue to speak English it's all good.
@hels - depends which war is in debate - WWI it is unlikely they would have been able to mount an invasion. WWII is a completely different matter and you have to consider the question of consequences - if we have not fought WWI there would not have been a WWII started by the Nazi Party because the conditions would probably not have existed for it to be created. I'm sure we would have found something else to fight over, we always seem to.
I'd prefer the simple ceremonial remembrance that we see every year.
Which you seem completely unaware of...
Thing is most of who are adult & mature realise that the terrible waste of life that occurred in WW1 was just that, terrible & tragic & unbelievably saddening. We arent fooled by any rhetoric that would try to portray their sacrifice as heroic, more just incredibly unfortunate.
We choose, important word there, we choose to remember the dead so they arent forgotten, so maybe just maybe we can stop this kind of thing happening again..
But hey you carry on with your political carping about whoever & see how many points you can score. Its pathetic & lame & makes you as bad the politicians you mock.
Because basically youre missing the point of WHY we remember them. See past the politics, forget the politicians & remember those who didnt come back.
Why are we spending 50 million quid?
Because our mate Dave wants to be remembered for doing something positive just before the next election
we choose to remember the dead so they arent forgotten, so maybe just maybe we can stop this kind of thing happening again
It really works too. There haven't been any wars anywhere in the world since.
Germany may not have rocked up and committed genocide in England, but their would have been a few more jews, gypsies and homosexuals shipped away to the gas ovens or perhaps you like that idea bwaarp ?
Because Jews were gassed by the Kaiser? Obviously Germans just like practicing a bit of genocide whenever they can.
Melebowski, still don't buy it.
Because our mate Dave wants to be remembered for doing something positive just before the next election
+1
It really works too. There haven't been any wars anywhere in the world since.
Oh grow up FFS!
Going on some of the posts on this thread, I think we [i]should[/I] spend some more in the teaching of history.
[i]Going on some of the posts on this thread, I think we should spend some more in the teaching of history.
[/i]
+1
But then based on some of the opinions (which many believe to be facts) put on STW, there is more than history that needs teaching...
what is the lesson that we are supposed to learn from WW1..?
50 million over 4 years thats 20p per person a year..
if the welfare bill is 200bn per year then 25p isnt going to sink the ship to recognise the sacrifice and educate todays kids..
what is the lesson that we are supposed to learn from WW1..?
That sacrificing yourself for your country because some politician/general tells you it's for the greater good is a futile exercise and a pointless waste of life. That the same politicians/generals are interested only in what they can gain from war and care not a jot for the people who have to execute it. That patriotism is a tool of the powerful used to turn normal decent people into willing mercenaries for the cause of defending the riches and power of their masters.
Somehow though I don't think this side of war is what will be hilighted by these commemmorations. As others have said, it'll be tear-jerking images of brave Tommy selflessly fighting for king and country against the evil Hun.
Except with Cameron I'll place a wager that this will be all about jingoism - "Look at those wonderful glorious men, if only our youth had that kind of courage". I'll happily admit it if I'm wrong but I feel it will be designed to cause a wave of emotional patriotism.
and quotes yet? what's the wager, TJ wagered eating his hat and putting the video on youtube once (and never honoured it)
"Support the troops" and all that bollocks, sod the current lot of troops - they chose to fight. For once I wish the media portrayed some of the troops like a few friends of mine as being the types that like fighting instead of doing it for their country (I actually have less of a problem with this, at least it's honest).
you need to read the Tommy Atkins poem again
The tories are simply using the dead for political gain, .
how? there is no gain,
all there is is a significant scaling back of the armed forces and we'll be leaving Afgan at the same time this is going on
If they really cared about soldiers they'd make sure they got better psych treatment when they got back home, or better equipment or better....etc etc ad nauseum
I think they are doing better than labour did in term of looking after the troops, still not good enough though. More needs to be done but a lot of the problem lies in the NHS, civil service and procurement
Personally, I am also so cynical that I feel Cameron probably misses the smell of mustard gas in the morning
you need to ride your bike more often
That sacrificing yourself for your country because some politician/general tells you it's for the greater good is a futile exercise and a pointless waste of life. That the same politicians/generals are interested only in what they can gain from war and care not a jot for the people who have to execute it. That patriotism is a tool of the powerful used to turn normal decent people into willing mercenaries for the cause of defending the riches and power of their masters.
probably is what is going to be highlighted by all nations, just with a little less of the "class war" about it 😉
Somehow though I don't think this side of war is what will be hilighted by these commemmorations. As others have said, it'll be tear-jerking images of brave Tommy selflessly fighting for king and country against the evil Hun.
I suggest you ACTUALLY GO to a Remembrance Sunday some time. Youll find they are anything BUT.
Shouldn't you really give a citation after that?That sacrificing yourself for your country because some politician/general tells you it's for the greater good is a futile exercise and a pointless waste of life. That the same politicians/generals are interested only in what they can gain from war and care not a jot for the people who have to execute it. That patriotism is a tool of the powerful used to turn normal decent people into willing mercenaries for the cause of defending the riches and power of their masters.
Well said mrlI suggest you ACTUALLY GO to a Remembrance Sunday some time. Youll find they are anything BUT.
yunki - Memberwhat is the lesson that we are supposed to learn from WW1..?
Don't try and take on a machine gun with a football.
Don't try and take on a machine gun with a football.
Wouldn't it have been a lot more economical to give all schools a free download of Blackadder Goes Forth..?
Freeing up the 50million for something more practical.. not football coaching though obviously
sod the current lot of troops
[img] 
[/img]
I suggest you ACTUALLY GO to a Remembrance Sunday some time. Youll find they are anything BUT.
You're assuming an awful lot there. Are you suggesting that's it's not possible to remember and commemorate the people who died in war whilst at the same time being critical about the reasons they were killed?
You're assuming an awful lot there. Are you suggesting that's it's not possible to remember and commemorate the people who died in war whilst at the same time being critical about the reasons they were killed?
Nothing wrong with being critical.
Ive been to many, many Remembrance services in & out of uniform & not once did I feel they were jingoistic, tub thumping occasions as is being implied by a few here..
Far from it..
2014 will be a great time to remember how "great" Britain is and what a shame it would be if it broke up.
Well I'm not really talking about remembrance Sundays, and I certainly never said they were jingoistic or celebratory. I have no problem with them, and the ones I've seen have been very sobering and respectful as you say. What I do have a problem with though is the glorification of war, and the failure question the validity of it or to learn the lessons from it. It seems to me these days that there's lots of the former, and precious little of the latter.
I'm 100% for spending £50m on REMEMBERING WWI. Pop into WHSmiths and leaf through the WWI and WWII pictures book. WWI's is full of men full of dispair, skeletons in uniforms, body parts, bodies and mud.
If the Government is merely spending the money to justify our young men and women dying for **** all in a nasty dusty land then I question what lessons he has learnt.
WWI and remembering WWI is about remembering the senseless sacrifice and loss of youth to blundering Politicians and bad Generals.
Not read all of that but IMO it is very important to remember the human sacrifice and courage of our ancestors.
Not getting in to who/why/when and the with class discussion aside, WW1 was unimaginable in scale, unimaginable in horror, unimaginable in suffering.
In our cosy 21st century lives nothing comes close.
One thing though is certain, and that is that each and every one of the dead should be remembered, even more so on the 100th anniversary.
I applaud the plans, and bear in mind this would have been done if any of the other political parties were in charge as this is how a civilised country conducts itself.
We should always remember the past to make for a better future.
What I do have a problem with though is the glorification of war, and the failure question the validity of it or to learn the lessons from it. It seems to me these days that there's lots of the former, and precious little of the latter.
I think after the treason committed by a recent labour prime minister a lot of people are questioning the validity of war
if the current gov was jingoistic we would be expanding the armed forces not contracting them, we'd be expanding in Afgan rather than withdrawing etc etc
