Quite a few mills around these parts are now flats, or they've demolished the original building and built houses on the land.
Rarely affordable though. Or there may be a smattering within the development.
But there are two big ones I pass on my way to work that are simply husks, wasted real estate for sure.
It’s both, apparently.
Seems to be focused on legal migration though, which is not what "a significant minority of people" are concerned about.
Seems to be focused on legal migration though, which is not what “a significant minority of people” are concerned about
This is purely anecdotal but many of the people I know who've expressed concerns about immigration rarely differentiate.
The examples they use are often the high profile media stories that involve a shitty person doing shitty things often a legal migrant or claiming asylum. Rarely is it an illegal.
The sad part is the one bloke who blows himself up or goes banzai in London with a knife gets more airtime than those who commit huge amounts of time, energy and emotion to helping others.
I guess one of the downsides of mass immigration is the reality that in those masses are some shitty humans. If we 'closes the gates' there's an element of cutting our own noses to spite our face.
Properly funded infrastructure and agencies to manage are part of the solution for sure.
What do you mean by not legal migration? If it's rejected asylum applications, we have processes for that... we just need to fund and staff them... whether that be in the UK or before arrival.
What do you mean by not legal migration? If it’s rejected asylum applications, we have processes for that… we just need to fund and staff them… whether that be in the UK or before arrival.
The fact that they have to consider getting the armed forces involved to backfill vacancies when they're having staffing issues speaks volumes.
Bare minimum for peanuts seems to be the way and then people are surprised when stuff fails.
So I can explain my dads reasons...
My dad hates immigaration. Literally any problem he encounters is blamed on immigration. e.g. lack of swans on the local river is because the immigrants are eating them. He also blames waiting times in the NHS on immigration "because you can see all the foreigners waiting". He seems to have a particular problem with muslims as he sees islam as a violent religion. He was livid when he saw a muslim bookshop open up in the city and feels like the local area is no longer his home and has a different culture. He complains that we are being replaced as happens in nature "when one species goes extinct". He also dislikes the EU and said we voted for a trading union, not a political union, and it was all labours fault for opening up the borders straight away that immigration got so bad.
He doesn't consider himself racist in the slightist, and he's always friendly to people he meets (regardless of colour/religion).
Conversely, my grandad was very much against Brexit. He said we faught facism, not "the germans" and thought brexit undid the work of the last 70 years since the war.
Literally any problem he encounters is blamed on immigration.
You could have written that about my Mum. I don't think either of them are hugely atypical for their generation. Took the dogs for a few walks when I visited her last week. Lots of general chats with other, er, "older" dog walkers... Eastern Europeans came up a lot... in reference to everything... especially when it came to the amount of new build housing (despite my mum living in one of those new homes, and having moved into the area when she bought it).
"That hedge needs cutting"... "probably immigrants expecting the Council to do it for them"... that sort of thing.
Conversely, my grandad was very much against Brexit. He said we faught facism, not “the germans” and thought brexit undid the work of the last 70 years since the war.
My grandad was bloody livid. Fortunately he died at 101 before it actually happened so he didn't get to see the nonsense. And he remembered people coming home from the first war with bits missing. He was also pretty livid about the state of the NHS and it certainly wasn't to do with the immigrants that looked after him.
Not sure what you do not understand – the question was “what is your average interaction with immigrants”?
I went to a gym next to a hospital used mainly by its staff and that was my main interaction
Ah, I understand now. I have interaction with people born for outside the UK pretty much everywhere, I hadn't realised that in some areas they tend to be restricted to hospitals and gyms 👍
Edit: "Hadn't occurred" is probably a better explanation.
My neighbors are 3 generations of Brazilian.
Based on them (mostly the Dashhound and the mother in law both being obnoxiously noisy) can I reconsider my previous Laisse Faire attitude to immigration? 😂
only places I’ve heard people complain about this have been areas where the immigrant population is almost non-existent
I'd share that view. I've moved around lots. I grew up in Chester but have since lived in London, Belfast, Edinburgh, Kent, Oxfordshire, Gloucestershire, Germany and Cyprus. We moved here to rural Shropshire about 9 years ago.
The level of overt, casual racism amongst some (not all) of my neighbours though is shocking and worse than anywhere else I've lived. From otherwise nice, helpful, friendly people who have made us feel very welcome. The thing is though that it's also the least multicultural area I've ever lived. You hardly ever see a non white face, and even white immigrants are rare. It's mostly farming families who've lived here for generations.
It's obvious to me that if these neighbours ever met any of those they are so unpleasant about, their ridiculous fears and prejudices would disappear in a puff of smoke. It's largely ignorance and fear of the unknown.
He was livid when he saw a muslim bookshop open up in the city and feels like the local area is no longer his home and has a different culture.
He doesn’t consider himself racist in the slightist, and he’s always friendly to people he meets (regardless of colour/religion).
I can well believe that and there isn't necessarily a contradiction imo. I know plenty with similar attitudes.
People like the reassurance and sense of security which the familiar brings. The unfamiliar and different feels challenging, uncomfortable, and a bit scary.
You get that on here with the political threads!! Most people seem to want them to be echo chambers where personal beliefs are validated and approved, and the warm reassurance that brings.
I on the hand love it .....vive la différence and all that.
doomanic
Full Member
It’s both, apparently.Seems to be focused on legal migration though, which is not what “a significant minority of people” are concerned about.
This "oh, but we're only worried about the illegal immigrants" is utter BS. Where people complain about immigration (services, housing, government funding) it's ONLY legal immigration that is causing these issues. There isn't a huge queue of illegal immigrants buying up all the housing, lifting rents, taking legal jobs etc.
But again, politicians and rags like the Daily Hatemail have managed to convince people that we're being overrun by illegal immigrants who are stealing our jobs (how - they have no papers), our rental properties (same) and our NHS (unlikely, they generally dno't go in for large elective surgery...) - as a way to hide racism as "legitimate concern about our countrys future".
illegal immigrants who are stealing our jobs (how – they have no papers)
This is a bit naive. There are plenty of ways to work without the legal right in this country. This one is just the latest iteration: https://inews.co.uk/news/delivery-riders-account-sharing-facebook-black-market-2957089
I remember probably 10 yrs or so ago, being in a hospital ward in Bradford with my ill son.
The bed next to us was an Asian lad, and I will never forget about how his family were moaning about all these Polish people coming in to their community, taking their houses, shops etc etc.
IMO nationally its just an easy target for the journalism to stir interest, and something for politicians to try and differentiate themselves on.
Watching the new this morning they were asking if people were going to vote. One women responded she was because potholes were getting too bad.
For some of the older generation if you are from a different town then they see you as an immigrant, so I can only imagine how they view people from another country. I remember being in a pub in my home town when I was younger and being asked by an older man where I was from, I said I was born and bred in the town and he said ‘where are your parents from though’ I told him Glasgow and he replied ‘ ah, so you are not really from here then!’. Unless you are born and bred,third generation then you are considered an outsider.
One women responded she was because potholes were getting too bad.
It’s all those foreign lorries you see.
"Percentages Calculation (thanks chatgpt)
Latin-based: (20 / 170) * 100 ≈ 11.76%
Norman-based: (9 / 170) * 100 ≈ 5.29%
Germanic: (135 / 170) * 100 ≈ 79.41%
Other: (1 / 170) * 100 ≈ 0.59%
These calculations show that the text predominantly consists of Germanic words, with significant contributions from Latin-based and Norman-based vocabularies, reflecting the complex linguistic history of the English language.
Whats more The house of lords… Those lords were A certain norman kings buddies…
So yeah “it is now”… And always has been?"
I did deal with this in a subsequent post - the population of England. although mixed blood, had become pretty settled by the Norman Conquest, we then had nigh on 900 years as a country with relatively little immigration - pca posted a good graph. The single largest influx we have dealt with were the 250,000 Belgians during the first World war, but they pretty much all returned home after the war.
Most people who are against immigration are not racist.
Got a source for this claim? My personal experience does not bear this out. YMMV.
Most immigrants do not want more immigration.
Why?
Because xenophobia isn't the exclusive domain of white British 'Christian' people?
Lets be honest, you're never going to get an actual answer to the original question on STW, i don't think this is the type of community where you get the thoughts and feelings that are against immigration or have issues with it, you're only going to get what you've got, which is just positivity about immigration with very little negative comments.
A general question to anyone of any persuasion on immigration, what is your average interaction with immigrants?
I lived most of my life in Accrington. There was a large population of people of ****stani descent, along with a smattering of others. If anything, white British were the minority, certainly in the ward I lived. Walking past the playground at my old primary school, the only white faces you're likely to see were the teachers. When I moved out I think I was the only white person left on the block. I suppose it's easy for some to see this as "taking over" if you never travel outside of your home town.
And you know, they were (mostly) all lovely. There were a few young Asian lads who acted like they'd grown up in the Bronx, but that can be attributed to them being young lads rather than anything to do with their race/descent. The only people I ever really had any bother from were the whites.
We had an Asian lad on our team, I think third-generation ****stani immigrant, and a nicer bloke you couldn't hope to meet. We had some fairly lengthy chats around religion and whilst as regular readers will know I don't hold much truck with such things, it was an eye-opener. There are those who think of Islam as a religion of hate, and whilst that may be true in some [schisms? sects? branches? I don't know the correct term, sorry], it's a far cry from what he's been taught. Part of his faith involves giving back to the community - that is, the community as a whole, not just fellow Muslims - it's a mandatory part of their teachings and I've seen that in action first-hand. From what he's told me this is pretty much the norm, the extremists hitting the headlines shortly after bits of them have hit several walls are not following any form of Islam that most British Muslims recognise.
Someone said earlier that the less interaction/exposure people have with "foreigners" the more likely they are to be racist - sorry, excuse me, "opposed to immigration." I think that's largely true, though it's a rule of thumb rather than an absolute.
So I can explain my dads reasons…
...
He doesn’t consider himself racist in the slightist,
I would respectfully suggest that he is mistaken.
Bit late to this and most of my views have probably been covered off already. Immigration is one of the few things left of this country that makes it great imo. I feel lucky to know loads of people from all over. My direct report is a Slovakian, I have a Brazilian, several Polish people, a Lithuanian and two Romanians on the wider team. Our office and warehouse have people from all over. It’s great!
Political parties are fantastic at othering and sadly it works on large swathes of our society. You get people quoting crime figures, yet you get dickheads anywhere. Lack of housing, that’s down to poor planning and existing housing being very expensive. I don’t see where immigrants are an issue at all.
Lets be honest, you’re never going to get an actual answer to the original question on STW, i don’t think this is the type of community where you get the thoughts and feelings that are against immigration or have issues with it, you’re only going to get what you’ve got, which is just positivity about immigration with very little negative comments.
Because it's STW, or because those who are opposed appear to lack the ability to articulate why?
It’s the latter Cougar
From what he’s told me this is pretty much the norm, the extremists hitting the headlines shortly after bits of them have hit several walls are not following any form of Islam that most British Muslims recognise.
It's like all the nonsense about the danger of illegal migrants doing terrorisms - almost every single act of terror carried out in this country has been by British-born UK nationals.
Lets be honest, you’re never going to get an actual answer to the original question on STW
I think the question has been answer well by multiple people. Its just few of us agree with the why and have challenged those that do for the "evidence" they keep saying there is out there
I think it's easy to point the finger at immigrants for running down areas of cities like Birmingham, but in reality it's an economic thing. Immigrants tend to be the poorest so they end up in the cheapest parts of town, which tend to also be the most deprived.
But after reading this article, the immigration numbers are way higher than I thought they would be, but as it says, most are in the south east of England.
https://capx.co/britain-cant-afford-another-birmingham-every-two-years/
But even in a smallish town like the one where I live, there are quite a few people that are not from Scotland, including myself. This includes Italian, Japanese, thai, indian, South Africans, Kiwis, Aussies, Poles, Ukrainians and loads of English.
The real issue is that we have an aging population and there are plenty of people choosing not to have kids, so who is going to be doing the jobs in the future? Well immigrants of course. Simple economics, when you have a local shortfall in a resource, you import that resource from somewhere else.
https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/children-of-migrants-in-the-uk/
What we need is sensible migration laws and to actually police the illegal migration that is just criminal extortion of vulnerable people. Stop the Boats is a valid objective, both for the country and the trafficed people. Sadly it isn’t what we are actually doing.
I’ve not really got much to add other than to say I’m glad of immigration as without it I’d not be here with my mother being a German immigrant just after the Second World War. And to that end, I’d not have a brother in law (Jamaican) or sister in law (Korean). Immigration has made my life a whole lot richer.
The whole narrative of “No Space” is hilarious. I fly over the country every day, and even the SE is barely touched. 70% of uk land is “Utilused Agricultural Area” but only 30% of that is actual crops. Most of it is just massive private estates you can’t access or see. If we actively managed our building programme instead of leaving it in the hands of a few companies massive land banks it would be a start.
We certainly don’t have enough infrastructure or services, but that isn’t the fault of immigrants.
what if they built on your favourite trail?
.
Call me old-fashioned but I wouldn't want to persecute the most vulnerable people on earth because of where I want to ride.
Plenty of golf courses - use them.
I agree helping the most vulnerable is something to do and be proud of, just don't allow it to be taken advantage of . just sensible planning ahead which is something that can't be left to the polititions sadly.
I think it’s easy to point the finger at immigrants for running down areas of cities like Birmingham, but in reality it’s an economic thing. Immigrants tend to be the poorest so they end up in the cheapest parts of town, which tend to also be the most deprived.
I know exactly what went wrong in Accrington and many other East Lancashire towns. We were a cotton town, the Spinning Jenny was invented about 2 miles from where I used to live. The cotton trade dried up, all the mills closed and nothing replaced it. The local economy went into freefall, the town never recovered. The town centre today is dominated by fast-food outlets, pound shops, charity shops and bookmakers. It's the place to be if you want a ham-flavoured pizza and five copies of Scene It!
What we need is sensible migration laws and to actually police the illegal migration that is just criminal extortion of vulnerable people.
If they're already acting illegally, what do you suggest a change in the law would achieve?
The cotton trade dried up, all the mills closed and nothing replaced it. The local economy went into freefall, the town never recovered.
Similar to Bradford. See also mining towns/villages I'd imagine as well.
I think the question has been answer well by multiple people. Its just few of us agree with the why and have challenged those that do for the “evidence” they keep saying there is out there
Well this evidence thing works both ways don't you know.
sirromj
Well this evidence thing works both ways don’t you know.
Well, you aren't wrong.
To be honest though, it's easy to come up with evidence that supports a need for migration, the NHS simply couldn't currently function without it, ditto the care sector. Longer term we also need more younger workers to support an aging population via their taxes and the actual work they do. I'm sure there are other sectors and aspects that I'm not even aware of that benefit greatly too.
Long term, should we train more of our own doctors and nurses? Yes but that will take years and people are dying/suffering now waiting for procedures and medical help.
When your elderly parent is in a hospital hallway for days or your kid has been waiting over 12 hours in A&E to be seen, immigration policy goes way, way down most people's priority list.
Sure as hell does for me, that's for sure.😁
@sirromj -
https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/why-are-people-so-against-immigration/page/3/#post-13275189
There's plenty of actual facts and evidence there, and a link to the Migration Observatory (which is an academic institution at Oxford University with no bias either way). Most of the data suggests immigrants are beneficial.
funkmasterp
I have a Brazilian
Cannot get image out of head
^^ We're a broad church on STW.
Unlike, erm, the average brazilian.
When your elderly parent is in a hospital hallway for days or your kid has been waiting over 12 hours in A&E to be seen, immigration policy goes way, way down most people’s priority list.
Sure as hell does for me, that’s for sure.😁
... which is part of the problem. If we cared more about positive immigration, we'd have more doctors/staff and thus shorter waiting times. Viewed as a percentage of the population, more people work in the NHS than use it.
How soon we forget. The reason we have the immigration we do is because after WWII we were ****ed and practically begged people from overseas to come help us rebuild.
