[Closed] Why are our pubs dying?

People are changing their habits. Beer is silly expensive in pubs. Pubs have big TVs on the wall that people can either watch at home in peace or go out to avoid.....

people are skint.
and smack is cheaper.............. 😉

Hereford?
Surely is because the worlds best special forces are out of the country, ahem "playing away"?

Smoking ban + recession.

We saw the decline start before the smoking ban

It brought home to me what our pubs used to be like and how much they have changed when I did the round of pubs at the Real Ale Wobble in Llanwrtydd Wells last November. They were bursting with people all p*$$ed but having a great time, ah! happy days!

maybe the pubs aren't as entertaining for the "kids" as meeting online and playing soul-less games. I've heard the pubs blame cheap booze at supermarkets and the smoking ban, but maybe there's simply nothing appealing about a pub to the youngsters. Me, personally, I love them and I do find it sad that many are closing, but maybe if some pubs modelled themselves on cyber-cafes they might start getting some new punters who then might learn how to socialise in the flesh. Something's got to lure them in. Just a thought...

too much work

It's one of the following:

(a) According to my real-ale friends beer costs about £1 a pint (taxed) when it leaves the brewery. At my local it's about £3 a pint. Just too expensive.

Or

(b) Everyone who used to be down the pub is now out riding around on bikes in the dark with absurdly bright lights having been terrified by the health police and the chancellor into giving up beer.

Or

(c) Everyone in Herefordshire has converted to Islam.

Smoking ban hasn't helped. Nor have the pubcos taking every penny from landlords.

(b) Everyone who used to be down the pub is now out riding around on bikes in the dark with absurdly bright lights having been terrified by the health police and the chancellor into giving up beer.

Aren't the margins very small on beer? I remember reading somewhere that most of the pubs that are closing down are the ones that don't/can't serve food. That's where the mark up is?

They're expensive. The chain pub has killed local beer, and individuality, they are just rammed full of folk trying to get pissed as quickly as possible, as cheaply as possible. Supermarkets must share a bit of the blame, selling alcohol as a loss leader, the smoking ban.

[i]and smack is cheaper...[/i]

A cheap silly-strong cider is cheaper still, and legal, and the effects last longer.

Because pubs are full of older men drinking real ale with stupid names and moaning about how things aren't as good as they used to be.

We had one pubco pull the plug on a succesful local pub because they sold too much food and not enough beer. The pubco put the rent up until the tennants left, then brought in some real 'villans' who sold gallons of beer, but had fights every weekend - nice!

pomona - maybe you are right with real ale being seen as an old mans drink and the younger generation looking for something more 'hip'

I'm paraphrasing PeterPoddy here, but seriously, what does a pub offer to people these days that they can't get elsewhere? There are so many activities competing for our attention

The missus not handing out passes! So thats why night riding was invented.

The smoking ban has had a serious impact, plus obviously the recession just topped it off.

they are just rammed full of folk trying to get pissed as quickly as possible, as cheaply as possible

I don't think that is anything remotely new, it's just that we all have video phones and CCTV now so are more aware of it

Well, in Hereford everyone seems to go to The Barrels. It's always packed whilst everywhere else is dead.
Don't blame them though, they do some great beers there.

jj55 - probably because of tough drink drive laws, no smoking, cheap booze in the supermarkets, better tv ??, i lived in Hereford for 16 years but now live just North of Abergavenny, you think your town is dead try Aber on a wet Friday night, more Police and plastic coppers (support officer)? on the street than drinkers. Real shame but a sign of the times.

Couldn't have anything to do with beer being north of £3/pint, could it?

Don't think the smoking ban has had any impact, people go outside to smoke and everyone who doesn't enjoys being in the pub more. I can hardly remember when I used to have to change my clothes completely after spending any length of time in a pub.

2nd the barrels had some sessions in there.

Smoking ban has had a n effect and it depends upon the pub the old mans spit and sawdust boozer with no garden has suffered more than the family pub.

Tied houses meaning the landlord has to buy all the drink thru the pubco have killed profit margins so there is not much in it for the landlord

Having said that round my way the pubs are healthy and doing good trade - but I don't have to go far to find a load of closed ones. We have a massive oversupply of pubs being a port area 25 different eating and drinking places within 400m and 50 within a mile.

Pubs need to find a niche to survive

a lot of the big brewery chains have shot themselves in the foot by selling beer to landlords at unsustainable prices..
add smoking ban
add recession
add online gaming, facebook and freeview
it all adds up to a very sad and probably quite sinister new era of social isolation and breakdown of community networks for a large swathe of British society who rely on the pub for much more than boozing, fighting and sh*gging

IMO it's not so much the price of a pint, but cheap beer in supermarkets. With few customer/pints sold, pubs then need to charge more per pint to cover theirs costs, hence more people stay at home, etc - vicious circle.

Plus property prices are such now that some of the big pub companies (not some much into running pubs as running a balance sheet) see a better return by selling pubs off for development - in some cases selling them on with a restrictive covernant to prevent someone else starting up in competition where they've already got some existing pubs

I'd far prefer a pint at the pub, change of scenery and all that. I rarely drink at home from one week to the next...

Smokers are staying away.

And all the health-nazi, whinging, self-righteous, whining, sanctimonious moaners who were always bleating "I don't like pubs because they're full of smokers" still don't go near pubs as, when it comes down to it, they're a bunch of shandy-drinking ponces who don't actually have any mates to go there with anyway.

Which is just as well, as these people tend to be so insipid, tedious and holier-than-though that someone would quickly take offence to there presence and beat them to death with their own shoe

[b]yunki[/b] I think you are right, we are spawning a whole new generation of people who just sit on their own tapping on keyboards (looks down for a minute!) and twiddling joysticks but never really speaking to anyone!

Binners, time for a relaxing smoke and a pint, I think!

🙂

I don't buy the smoking ban argument, that's a convenient smokescreen (ahem) for the pubcos who charge unrealistic rents and are more interested in selling the building to developers to build flats half the time.

In my experience well run pubs are doing fine...

porterclugh Round here it definitely made a difference to some of the pubs. Average take was a bit down but some pubs suffered huge losses while some hardly any - and tied houses are rarer here.

Its the old mans working class type bar that has suffered round here. these guys simply don't go out as much now as they can't smoke with their beer

porter, further to TJ's comment above, the other type of pub which has suffered is the city centre pub without any garden or smoking area. The smoking ban has indeed had an impact.
My fear is that those who would have had a couple of pints and a couple of fags of an evening in the Dog and Duck are now taken a "Buy one get one free" four/eight pack and smoking at home, possibly in front of kids/family etc. That's not good.

Also, as mentioned above, the pub was/is more than just a place to drink! My local in That London's Famous London, and my fave local in the country (The Malet, Newton Tony) both serve as a community meeting point, a place to chat with friends and to get to know new people. Very important, IMO.

i pisses me right off that pubs and restaurants are so dead. no one seems to go out in the evenings, all tucked in bed by 10. its why i'd rather live in so many other countries than the UK

Not the smoking ban, it's the price of drinks. Ale at £3 / pint compared with supermarket prices 1/3 to 1/2 of that (and that's for "decent" beer) + ridiculous soft drink prices.

I think the smoking ban is irrelevant too, at the time some pub owners were insistent on telling the world and their customers that there was no reason to go to the pub if you couldn't smoke, but I'm pretty sure that if the reason to go to a pub was to smoke you wouldn't be able to smoke your own fags in them, you'd need to buy them in there (just like I can't sit in a cafe and eat a packed lunch).

I don't think smokers were paying £3 a pint to just to have somewhere to sit and smoke their own fags, I think social interaction, fun, entertainment might have been why they were sitting in a pub smoking their fags. I don't think those same smokers are now resolutely sitting on their own at home with a fag and a can in lonely silence (any more often than usual).

Theres a general reduction in the number of people going to pubs because there are generally more things to do of an evening these days, whether you go out or stay in.

I mean its beer-oclock, its [i]nearly [/i]the weekend, and here we all are on the internet.

I used to go to the pub, but when they thought it was in their own interests and they'd make more money by letting the government push the smokers out, as a smoker I thought **** them, and stopped going entirely.

Now I'm no longer a smoker, I still bear a grudge against them for their lack of support and happily quaff wine at home instead.

People don't go to pub because all the good looking, funny smokers like me are at home so what's the point. 😉

[url= http://www.thepublican.com/story.asp?sectioncode=7&storycode=66322&c=1 ]The Publican[/url] latest round of figures.

The smoking ban coincides with a decline in pubs, in scotland at least there thought to be more people encouraged to go to pubs than discouraged, and given the near universal compliance it would seem smokers are as supportive of the ban as anyone else. You need to look elsewhere for causes - for instance younger drinkers tend to drink [i]before[/i] they go out, and just have little top-ups while they are out, so they are not actually buying very much booze. I've seen young (and not all that young) city suits in Glasgow necking a bottle of Bucky by the bins outside their own office before their post-work tipple.

One issue that seems to have been overlooked is the fact that the Drs and health professionals have been going on about a max safe limit of 3-4 units a day and it's having an effect, that's about two pints of 3.8% ale and many drinks are stronger than that. I guess people just can't be bothered to go out for 1 pint.

It ain't cost anyway, not round here (Shropshire), ok so there are often deals on but most beer in bottles in Supermarkets is around £1.70 a bottle, a pint in the two pubs I drink in a couple of times a month is £2.20, not a massive difference.

Following smokers, drinkers are next in the Governments firing line so tax on booze will keep on increasing and more pubs will close down.

The legislation to remove tied pubs (by guess who?) and the interest of Japanese banks in buying asset sheets means lots of pubs are seen as realiseable cash. Well not for much longer. I blame .........

The smoking ban may have had an effect in some places, but in others it has helped business, bringing in custom that may well have stayed away, females and families for instance.
Landlord's charging large rents that have a yearly increase even if sales have a decrease doesnt help.
Also being tied to a specific brewery doesn't help, it may have been the reason why the pub was affordale to the landlord when he took it over, but when 80% of the other pubs in the same town sell the same beer it makes life more difficult.
Pubs being tied to suppliers who can effectivly set there own price for a pint.
Having recently been in the pub trade, Yes certain real ales can be bought for £1 a pint but most cost more than that to buy, plus then there's all the other costs, and it eats in to the profit.
Most succesful pubs these days also sell food and that's were the profit is that can make or break the pub's future, but a half decent chef will add £25k+ to your wage budget around here, if there any good you can add £10k+ to that.

£3.99 for half decent lager!

they can piss off.

seems to me that a whole range of factors have conspired to close many of our favourite old haunts. There's nothing so sad than an old favouriate with boarded up windows.

is it really a bad thing?

ask a copper what he thinks about chucking out time

I don't want to get drawn in to a debate really... but those people saying that the smoking ban is irrelevant either don't use pubs very regularly or don't smoke or both..

I was a regular drinker (and smoker) and spent four or five hours every evening and longer at weekends in my local pubs.. A very large number of people did the same.. preferring the pub to sitting in front of the TV at home..

It became almost unfeasable for heavy smokers (a huge majority of hardcore regular drinkers smoke also) to continue this through the winter.. and even in the summer the relaxed homely atmosphere was definitely interrupted by the continual exodus to a smoking area..

as a contributing factor.. along with price rises on booze etc etc (see earlier post) the smoking ban hit very hard indeed at the oldschool pubs regular bread and butter..

a great shame as a very real community has been uprooted

All the above and more.

Its easy to point the finger at the smoking ban, but pubs have been closing long before then.

Its a social habits thing, people used to go to the pub on the way home from work for a pint, or in the evening to get out of the house, but most people simply don't want to do that anymore. Add in the high cost of running a pub, and the fact that most bigger pubs are worth more as land than as pubs, and its easier to close than to stay open.

It's all down to the cheap beer in supermarkets.

Oh, and the internet, and the social acceptability of other drugs, and increasing car ownership, and 24 hour shopping, and reality television, and cheap air travel, and bad parenting, and closing down of coal mines, steel works and other forms of traditional industry, and people being prepared to spend hours commuting, and Starbucks, and legislation to limit pubs being tied to breweries, and Sky, and, lets face it, a general detachment by most of the population from anything to do with community, sociability and kinship, in favour of laziness, selfishness, poor aesthetics and lack of vision or respect.

I personally can't stand the whole drink culture in this country.
Don't get me wrong I like a drink, and luckilly I have a local that's just out of the way enough to stay a local. I'd love to be in there more often, but it's just too expensive simple as that.

The real reason, and the one that everyone has overlooked, is that women work now.

..and women do all the other stuff that they always used to do as well, and so don't have time to idle away a couple of hours in the pub after work. Because of this, men can no longer justify spending hours in the pub, thank god, and so the traditional pub society, ie, men, have had to do a bit more of their share of helping out.

I grew up in a society where men went to the pub after work, then again at night, then again on Friday night, then on Saturday afternoon, then on Sunday lunchtime. While women worked at home, cooking, washing, more cooking, looking after kids, more washing, more cooking etc.

I'm glad to see the back of traditional pubs, with drunken old sods who treated their wives like shite and pissed their wages away.

Having actually worked for one of the big brewers...

The biggest reason is changing habits. It used to be that the people who were there every night sinking seven or eight pints of cooking beer kept the money flowing into pubs. They're literally dying off and not being replaced and the younger generation have different habits eg staying in and watching tv and so on, not to mention a culture of hitting the town hard on a couple of nights a week ( the weekends ) rather than drinking at the local every night.

Research suggested that supermarket beer did have some impact but not as much as most
people seemed to think. Same for the extra tax year on year.

The smoking ban killed off many pubs that were dying anyway but typically didn't haveuch effect on volume at the big volume sellers.

Some brands are particularly in trouble. Newcy brown is a well known example. An older and older market with few new drinkers taking it on. There were even experiments with serving it really cold at nightclubs just so you can't really taste it so younger people might buy it if suitably promoted.

Profit margins for most beers for the big brewers is of the order of 1 to 2p per pint. Not a lot and a lot is actually sold near or below cost price just to maintain market share.

I blame Thatcher!!! 😆

Good point. I recant my post!

With rural areas like herefordshire, you've got to drive everywhere (or cycle) either way no drinking.
The market towns like Kington, Ledbury, Bromyard have ageing populations who are no so keen on the true "local".
Pubs are losing there "teams" which used to be the backbone of pubs (certainly in Herefordshire) whether it was darts, phat or skittles are what ever.

I cerainly miss em

Pubcos plus less disposable income.
Smoking ban is worth the loss of a few pubs or indeed every pub.

Which town in Herefordshire, OP?

[i]Because pubs are full of older men drinking real ale with stupid names and moaning about how things aren't as good as they used to be.
[/i]

Hmm - why is that the pubs doing well in my area are all the real ale pubs! It seems people (and people with money) are prepared to travel to these pubs to buy a product they can't get in a supermarket. I know of one micro-brewery near us who has taken over two pubs in recent years and transformed them completely.

Our local has had a few temporary publicans. The current is one utterly unwelcoming and bordering on just plain miserable.

His latest charm offensive is "use it or loose it" posters which are great at attracting the passing tourist trade.

In this case though I blame the demise on the greed of the leaseholder. They've screwed the profit out of the publicans to the point it's not viable as a business. There have been some excellent people in there who've made the pub / restaurant very successful - but the leaseholder just keeps demanding more.

It's a real shame as it is (rather was) a focal heart for the village.

Yeah my locals are full (at least a few days a week) of under 25s drinking real ale and cidaaar. But I have to agree that the increasing preponderance of microbrewery ale does allow many freehosues to make a bit more profit selling a 'bespoke' product.

More people are staying in to drink, rather than going out, right across europe, so local factors such as fag bans, choice, pricing or taxation count for less than the changing of the times.

The smoking ban is a ban on all public buildings, not just pubs, so unless theres been a corresponding drop in the takings of motorway service stations, pet shops and massage palours then its not a key factor.

The most interesting outcome from the ban though is that many smokers now don't consider their own home to be a suitable place to smoke either

Beer has got more local and more varied in my view... it's price that is the problem. If they want to hit binge drinking and wasted teenagers then put a tax hike on off sales, and give a reduced rate to pubs. 2 problems solved in one fell swoop.

Also breweries should not be allowed to force landlords to sell only their approved beers. It's protectionism (they should obviously offer some incentive), and also reduces choices. If I go into one of the Robinsons houses here I get the same selection of beers - if there was more variation you make get more trade in each of them IMO (especially when the Robinsons stuff is pretty average).

The smoking ban... not sure that has had that much of an impact myself, but I could be wrong. I think that smokers are a vocal minority these days who make a lot of noise about that being why they stopped going to the pub when it is, infact, a price thing... it's cheaper for them to drink at home and thus be able to afford the extra for the fags too! On the other hand I think there are people going to pubs now who wouldn't have done in the past with the fumes spilling out the door. Could even be pushing similar numbers all in all.

Reduce the price at the pump, push choice and regional variation and people will come back in. Continue to increase prices at stupid rates whilst the supermarkets deep discount and the whole thing is going to fall apart.

Is the demise of pubs related to the 'why is everything/food/service so sh*t?' thread of a few days ago? With the crappy eggs and toast?

Seems to me that a lot of pubs are smelly nasty drinking pits with plastic 60s naffness all round and deserve to go to the wall. If they ain't viable, they go - this is a capitalist country. If you want to get me into your pub then make it nice enough. You might be nostalgic for your local cos all your mates go there, but that's not enough - times change, you need to attract a steady stream of people by being a nice place - you can't rely any on more on there being nothing else to do 🙂

That was a long sentence.

Smoking ban and pubs serving food = ace!
Now I have little kiddies, going to the pub is a rare thing indeed ( I agree with Crikey there). The chances I do get to go are with the kids, where we can have a walk beforehand, a couple of pints and some food. Some of the big chain food pubs are rammed with families at the weekend.

For me it's the supermarkets - crate of [s]mouthwash[/s],sorry lager £8 for 20 odd cans / 4 bottles of ale for £5.50 or around £3 a pint in a pub, which if it's a gastro pub has a bunch of 30 somethings taking over two or three tables and let their kids runaround as if they're at home.

*and breath*

Wasn't beer always cheaper in supermarkets?

Most of all, our habits have changed. Too many pubs have failed to recognise that buying habits have changed: in towns and cities, as people had more diposable income, so they were presented with shiny new bars, and clubs that stayed open late. Pubs seemed old hat in comparison.

There are some fantastic boozers around, but the reason they are so good is that they sit in a niche, and do not represent the mainstream. They serve great food (Albion, Chester), sell snuff behind the bar and refuse to serve lager (Falkland Arms, Great Tew), sell great cider (Square and Compass, Worth Matravers), are close by the brewery (Gate Hangs High, Hook Norton), sell more scotch than you know what to do with (Britons Protection, Manchester), have a large selection of well kept guest ales (Eagle and Child, Bispham).

All of those pubs are great and will remain so, not because they serve draft Bass and chicken in a basket, but because they give a sh*t. As there are more demands for people's time and money, pubs need to compete with a decent USP, and not on the assumption that people will go just because it's there.

pubs need to compete with a decent USP, and not on the assumption that people will go just because it's there.

In Harrogate almost all pubs are empty for the majority of the time. The only exceptions being:

The Alexandra (because it is a normal pub that opens till late - so it is busy around the time others are kicking out).

Wetherspoons (because they sell cheap beer innit)

The Old Bell Tavern (because it is a pleasant place, they serve a good choice of real ales - both local and world beers - the staff look like bar staff who enjoy themselves, not brainless idiots doing it *just* for money). The place smells pleasant and the toilets are clean. Funnily enough (regarding the smoking ban argument) this independently-owned pub - along with its 8 or so sister pubs in the area - have all been smoke-free since well before the ban came into place yet they have all always been very busy and not just at weekends.

[u]Some[/u] Pubs are good to meet up with your mates and have a couple of beers, especially after doing other activities. A lot of other pubs are unpleasant places full of rough scallies -and the less I have to mingle with them the better.

Each to their own, but going to the pub after work every night or spending all weekend boozing has always struck me as a bit sad and doesn't do your health or family life any good. I like a beer, but I'm not into the 'Drinking Culture' at all.

As has been said: In the old days, for many blokes, there weren't many alternative sources of entertainment. Having worked hard at the local factory or pit, my grandads' generation would go for a few jars with the lads (God forbid that you would have to spend time with your missus or family....). It certainly wasn't the done thing for women to go to pubs without men.

If there isn't the demand then why should 1000s of pubs exist? They're not charitable institutions.

no one seems to go out in the evenings, all tucked in bed by 10

how can you tell? Have you been peering through windows ? I rarely go out in the evening (except ride night) but I'm usually up till 2am working on pics and website, posting here, keeping in touch etc - much more interesting than slobbing in a pub 🙂

this must be an english thing because the pubs up here in Scotland are doing a great trade, I could take you to atleast 3 pubs within spitting distance of my office that service proper real ale (CAMRA) approved pubs for £2.50 a pint

The only pubs up here that are failing are the "YOOTH" pubs which lets face it we all know they open and shut every 6 months anyway

As a business owner myself I see it as primarily,; cost of premises and the 50% tax that has to be paid on that premises cost, per annum in the form of business rates - like your council tax but rated on almost half the rental value of your property, to be paid each year. Secondly, lifestyle changes; there is much more to entertain us in our after work time, the internet mainly, choice of what to watch on tv and of course, metrosexual men helping out more in the home. There is the cost as well, which is linked to my first point.

I'm sure there are many other reasons too.

PS: where I live, when a pub goes, a developer crams in as many flats onto the site, again linked to property prices, supply and demand.

Dunno about elsewhere, but I used to hate going to the pub in Sheffield. ALL town centre pubs were cheap, student-union-alikes with blaring music and sticky floors. Either that, or jumped-up look-at-me bars full of orange 1p-millionaires. Anything out of the city centre was owned by pubcos.

Edinburgh has loads of good pubs, however. I just have no job to afford regular visits. Although thats not a bad thing.

And on top of all this, we've recently discovered that you can buy a home brewing kit than makes 40 pints of very nice real ale for £60. Then refills cost £8-£18 a time for another 40 pints.

Why the hell would I go to a pub when the Yorkshire Bitter i've got sitting in the garage cost me 20p a pint? And it really is good beer. I know how it's been kept and I know eveything is nice and clean 🙂

PS: where I live, when a pub goes, a developer crams in as many flats onto the site, again linked to property prices, supply and demand.

And there is currently a lot of supply of cheapo, generic, tiny flats -Slums of the future.

I'd prefer the pubs, to be honest.

I honestly don't think that sitting at home drinking home brew or cans of cheap supermarket beer can compare to an evening out sat in a pub drinking with friends.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a beer or two on an evening at home but it is a completely different experience to going out.

I honestly don't think that sitting at home drinking home brew or cans of cheap supermarket beer can compare to an evening out sat in a pub drinking with friends.

but I don't want the kind of friends who think sitting all evening in a pub or drinking is a sensible allocation of time 🙂

when we think of pubs what do we think of?

This:
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This:
[img] [/img]

Or the reality of this?
[img] ?v=0[/img]
[img] [/img]

#1 = Old Dungeon Ghyll ?

Wasn't beer always cheaper in supermarkets?

Booze is ridiculously cheap now in offies/supermarkets comparatively.

I started drinking approx 15 years ago and booze in shops is basically the same price now as it was then, while booze in pubs has gone up massively. Pretty sure that's the main reason.