[Closed] Why are our pubs dying?

I don't want to get drawn in to a debate really... but those people saying that the smoking ban is irrelevant either don't use pubs very regularly or don't smoke or both..

I was a regular drinker (and smoker) and spent four or five hours every evening and longer at weekends in my local pubs.. A very large number of people did the same.. preferring the pub to sitting in front of the TV at home..

It became almost unfeasable for heavy smokers (a huge majority of hardcore regular drinkers smoke also) to continue this through the winter.. and even in the summer the relaxed homely atmosphere was definitely interrupted by the continual exodus to a smoking area..

as a contributing factor.. along with price rises on booze etc etc (see earlier post) the smoking ban hit very hard indeed at the oldschool pubs regular bread and butter..

a great shame as a very real community has been uprooted

All the above and more.

Its easy to point the finger at the smoking ban, but pubs have been closing long before then.

Its a social habits thing, people used to go to the pub on the way home from work for a pint, or in the evening to get out of the house, but most people simply don't want to do that anymore. Add in the high cost of running a pub, and the fact that most bigger pubs are worth more as land than as pubs, and its easier to close than to stay open.

It's all down to the cheap beer in supermarkets.

Oh, and the internet, and the social acceptability of other drugs, and increasing car ownership, and 24 hour shopping, and reality television, and cheap air travel, and bad parenting, and closing down of coal mines, steel works and other forms of traditional industry, and people being prepared to spend hours commuting, and Starbucks, and legislation to limit pubs being tied to breweries, and Sky, and, lets face it, a general detachment by most of the population from anything to do with community, sociability and kinship, in favour of laziness, selfishness, poor aesthetics and lack of vision or respect.

I personally can't stand the whole drink culture in this country.
Don't get me wrong I like a drink, and luckilly I have a local that's just out of the way enough to stay a local. I'd love to be in there more often, but it's just too expensive simple as that.

The real reason, and the one that everyone has overlooked, is that women work now.

..and women do all the other stuff that they always used to do as well, and so don't have time to idle away a couple of hours in the pub after work. Because of this, men can no longer justify spending hours in the pub, thank god, and so the traditional pub society, ie, men, have had to do a bit more of their share of helping out.

I grew up in a society where men went to the pub after work, then again at night, then again on Friday night, then on Saturday afternoon, then on Sunday lunchtime. While women worked at home, cooking, washing, more cooking, looking after kids, more washing, more cooking etc.

I'm glad to see the back of traditional pubs, with drunken old sods who treated their wives like shite and pissed their wages away.

Having actually worked for one of the big brewers...

The biggest reason is changing habits. It used to be that the people who were there every night sinking seven or eight pints of cooking beer kept the money flowing into pubs. They're literally dying off and not being replaced and the younger generation have different habits eg staying in and watching tv and so on, not to mention a culture of hitting the town hard on a couple of nights a week ( the weekends ) rather than drinking at the local every night.

Research suggested that supermarket beer did have some impact but not as much as most
people seemed to think. Same for the extra tax year on year.

The smoking ban killed off many pubs that were dying anyway but typically didn't haveuch effect on volume at the big volume sellers.

Some brands are particularly in trouble. Newcy brown is a well known example. An older and older market with few new drinkers taking it on. There were even experiments with serving it really cold at nightclubs just so you can't really taste it so younger people might buy it if suitably promoted.

Profit margins for most beers for the big brewers is of the order of 1 to 2p per pint. Not a lot and a lot is actually sold near or below cost price just to maintain market share.

I blame Thatcher!!! 😆

Good point. I recant my post!

With rural areas like herefordshire, you've got to drive everywhere (or cycle) either way no drinking.
The market towns like Kington, Ledbury, Bromyard have ageing populations who are no so keen on the true "local".
Pubs are losing there "teams" which used to be the backbone of pubs (certainly in Herefordshire) whether it was darts, phat or skittles are what ever.

I cerainly miss em

Pubcos plus less disposable income.
Smoking ban is worth the loss of a few pubs or indeed every pub.

Which town in Herefordshire, OP?

[i]Because pubs are full of older men drinking real ale with stupid names and moaning about how things aren't as good as they used to be.
[/i]

Hmm - why is that the pubs doing well in my area are all the real ale pubs! It seems people (and people with money) are prepared to travel to these pubs to buy a product they can't get in a supermarket. I know of one micro-brewery near us who has taken over two pubs in recent years and transformed them completely.

Our local has had a few temporary publicans. The current is one utterly unwelcoming and bordering on just plain miserable.

His latest charm offensive is "use it or loose it" posters which are great at attracting the passing tourist trade.

In this case though I blame the demise on the greed of the leaseholder. They've screwed the profit out of the publicans to the point it's not viable as a business. There have been some excellent people in there who've made the pub / restaurant very successful - but the leaseholder just keeps demanding more.

It's a real shame as it is (rather was) a focal heart for the village.

Yeah my locals are full (at least a few days a week) of under 25s drinking real ale and cidaaar. But I have to agree that the increasing preponderance of microbrewery ale does allow many freehosues to make a bit more profit selling a 'bespoke' product.

More people are staying in to drink, rather than going out, right across europe, so local factors such as fag bans, choice, pricing or taxation count for less than the changing of the times.

The smoking ban is a ban on all public buildings, not just pubs, so unless theres been a corresponding drop in the takings of motorway service stations, pet shops and massage palours then its not a key factor.

The most interesting outcome from the ban though is that many smokers now don't consider their own home to be a suitable place to smoke either

Beer has got more local and more varied in my view... it's price that is the problem. If they want to hit binge drinking and wasted teenagers then put a tax hike on off sales, and give a reduced rate to pubs. 2 problems solved in one fell swoop.

Also breweries should not be allowed to force landlords to sell only their approved beers. It's protectionism (they should obviously offer some incentive), and also reduces choices. If I go into one of the Robinsons houses here I get the same selection of beers - if there was more variation you make get more trade in each of them IMO (especially when the Robinsons stuff is pretty average).

The smoking ban... not sure that has had that much of an impact myself, but I could be wrong. I think that smokers are a vocal minority these days who make a lot of noise about that being why they stopped going to the pub when it is, infact, a price thing... it's cheaper for them to drink at home and thus be able to afford the extra for the fags too! On the other hand I think there are people going to pubs now who wouldn't have done in the past with the fumes spilling out the door. Could even be pushing similar numbers all in all.

Reduce the price at the pump, push choice and regional variation and people will come back in. Continue to increase prices at stupid rates whilst the supermarkets deep discount and the whole thing is going to fall apart.

Is the demise of pubs related to the 'why is everything/food/service so sh*t?' thread of a few days ago? With the crappy eggs and toast?

Seems to me that a lot of pubs are smelly nasty drinking pits with plastic 60s naffness all round and deserve to go to the wall. If they ain't viable, they go - this is a capitalist country. If you want to get me into your pub then make it nice enough. You might be nostalgic for your local cos all your mates go there, but that's not enough - times change, you need to attract a steady stream of people by being a nice place - you can't rely any on more on there being nothing else to do 🙂

That was a long sentence.

Smoking ban and pubs serving food = ace!
Now I have little kiddies, going to the pub is a rare thing indeed ( I agree with Crikey there). The chances I do get to go are with the kids, where we can have a walk beforehand, a couple of pints and some food. Some of the big chain food pubs are rammed with families at the weekend.

For me it's the supermarkets - crate of [s]mouthwash[/s],sorry lager £8 for 20 odd cans / 4 bottles of ale for £5.50 or around £3 a pint in a pub, which if it's a gastro pub has a bunch of 30 somethings taking over two or three tables and let their kids runaround as if they're at home.

*and breath*

Wasn't beer always cheaper in supermarkets?

Most of all, our habits have changed. Too many pubs have failed to recognise that buying habits have changed: in towns and cities, as people had more diposable income, so they were presented with shiny new bars, and clubs that stayed open late. Pubs seemed old hat in comparison.

There are some fantastic boozers around, but the reason they are so good is that they sit in a niche, and do not represent the mainstream. They serve great food (Albion, Chester), sell snuff behind the bar and refuse to serve lager (Falkland Arms, Great Tew), sell great cider (Square and Compass, Worth Matravers), are close by the brewery (Gate Hangs High, Hook Norton), sell more scotch than you know what to do with (Britons Protection, Manchester), have a large selection of well kept guest ales (Eagle and Child, Bispham).

All of those pubs are great and will remain so, not because they serve draft Bass and chicken in a basket, but because they give a sh*t. As there are more demands for people's time and money, pubs need to compete with a decent USP, and not on the assumption that people will go just because it's there.

pubs need to compete with a decent USP, and not on the assumption that people will go just because it's there.

In Harrogate almost all pubs are empty for the majority of the time. The only exceptions being:

The Alexandra (because it is a normal pub that opens till late - so it is busy around the time others are kicking out).

Wetherspoons (because they sell cheap beer innit)

The Old Bell Tavern (because it is a pleasant place, they serve a good choice of real ales - both local and world beers - the staff look like bar staff who enjoy themselves, not brainless idiots doing it *just* for money). The place smells pleasant and the toilets are clean. Funnily enough (regarding the smoking ban argument) this independently-owned pub - along with its 8 or so sister pubs in the area - have all been smoke-free since well before the ban came into place yet they have all always been very busy and not just at weekends.

[u]Some[/u] Pubs are good to meet up with your mates and have a couple of beers, especially after doing other activities. A lot of other pubs are unpleasant places full of rough scallies -and the less I have to mingle with them the better.

Each to their own, but going to the pub after work every night or spending all weekend boozing has always struck me as a bit sad and doesn't do your health or family life any good. I like a beer, but I'm not into the 'Drinking Culture' at all.

As has been said: In the old days, for many blokes, there weren't many alternative sources of entertainment. Having worked hard at the local factory or pit, my grandads' generation would go for a few jars with the lads (God forbid that you would have to spend time with your missus or family....). It certainly wasn't the done thing for women to go to pubs without men.

If there isn't the demand then why should 1000s of pubs exist? They're not charitable institutions.

no one seems to go out in the evenings, all tucked in bed by 10

how can you tell? Have you been peering through windows ? I rarely go out in the evening (except ride night) but I'm usually up till 2am working on pics and website, posting here, keeping in touch etc - much more interesting than slobbing in a pub 🙂

this must be an english thing because the pubs up here in Scotland are doing a great trade, I could take you to atleast 3 pubs within spitting distance of my office that service proper real ale (CAMRA) approved pubs for £2.50 a pint

The only pubs up here that are failing are the "YOOTH" pubs which lets face it we all know they open and shut every 6 months anyway

As a business owner myself I see it as primarily,; cost of premises and the 50% tax that has to be paid on that premises cost, per annum in the form of business rates - like your council tax but rated on almost half the rental value of your property, to be paid each year. Secondly, lifestyle changes; there is much more to entertain us in our after work time, the internet mainly, choice of what to watch on tv and of course, metrosexual men helping out more in the home. There is the cost as well, which is linked to my first point.

I'm sure there are many other reasons too.

PS: where I live, when a pub goes, a developer crams in as many flats onto the site, again linked to property prices, supply and demand.

Dunno about elsewhere, but I used to hate going to the pub in Sheffield. ALL town centre pubs were cheap, student-union-alikes with blaring music and sticky floors. Either that, or jumped-up look-at-me bars full of orange 1p-millionaires. Anything out of the city centre was owned by pubcos.

Edinburgh has loads of good pubs, however. I just have no job to afford regular visits. Although thats not a bad thing.

And on top of all this, we've recently discovered that you can buy a home brewing kit than makes 40 pints of very nice real ale for £60. Then refills cost £8-£18 a time for another 40 pints.

Why the hell would I go to a pub when the Yorkshire Bitter i've got sitting in the garage cost me 20p a pint? And it really is good beer. I know how it's been kept and I know eveything is nice and clean 🙂

PS: where I live, when a pub goes, a developer crams in as many flats onto the site, again linked to property prices, supply and demand.

And there is currently a lot of supply of cheapo, generic, tiny flats -Slums of the future.

I'd prefer the pubs, to be honest.

I honestly don't think that sitting at home drinking home brew or cans of cheap supermarket beer can compare to an evening out sat in a pub drinking with friends.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a beer or two on an evening at home but it is a completely different experience to going out.

I honestly don't think that sitting at home drinking home brew or cans of cheap supermarket beer can compare to an evening out sat in a pub drinking with friends.

but I don't want the kind of friends who think sitting all evening in a pub or drinking is a sensible allocation of time 🙂

when we think of pubs what do we think of?

This:
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This:
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Or the reality of this?
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#1 = Old Dungeon Ghyll ?

Wasn't beer always cheaper in supermarkets?

Booze is ridiculously cheap now in offies/supermarkets comparatively.

I started drinking approx 15 years ago and booze in shops is basically the same price now as it was then, while booze in pubs has gone up massively. Pretty sure that's the main reason.

Society is just changing, if I meet up with mates midweek then it's generally for a coffee. I would not even consider a pub midweek.

jimmy, you were going to the wrong pubs...

[url= http://www.camra.org.uk/page.aspx?o=297938 ]officially the best pub in Britain[/url]

i understand that pubs don't make much profit-per-pint, and so they need us in there for quite a while, often, drinking lots, to make a decent profit.

i don't know anyone with lots of spare time; there's too much diy, working, climbing and biking going on in my circle of friends, in a few years i suspect there'll be kids coming along to complicate things aswell.

i sneak in a pint or 2 during the week, then a few on friday and saturday nights. i'm a rubbish customer, and suspect i'm not unique.

it's not the price of beer that stops me drinking more, i just hate hang-overs.

The Smoking ban isnt killing pubs its pubs killing themselves.

If I think of the amount of pubs that I find appealling in Manchester- they are a fair distance away from me.

Too many focus on price (Wetherspoons are horrifically dull), others are drab and souless places. Alot of pubs are fitted out in newish yet horrific 80's decor. Why do some pub refurbers think this is nice?!

In addition, alot of the places loose the focus of what they are- they stock the standard pints, wife beater and a couple of other generic-same pub pumps. Pubs that stock Thwaites and Robinsons are bland IMO.

Customers definitely like variety now- something different and interesting. The old guard of punters are dying out (along with their fags).

Whens the last time you went into any pub and thought 'glasses of wine taste fantastic here'?

Same with the bar food in alot of them and those sodding fruit machines etc.

The Head of Steam and the Grove in Huddersfield are trying. Still souless places mind.

The only place that I can think of locally that I actually like is the Marble in Chorlton (3miles from home).

Geronimo - Member
when we think of pubs what do we think of?
This..
this.. or this..

Yes.

Society is just changing, if I meet up with mates midweek then it's generally for a coffee. I would not even consider a pub midweek.

Aye. Gone are the days when the working man went to the pub for his social life every night to avoid the trouble and strife. Now we go down to the Gym or sit in a seperate room talking to other Anglosaxon men on the internet.

Plus, as a rule I dont like any public house that doesnt allow dogs in.

I would not even consider a pub midweek.

but I don't want the kind of friends who think sitting all evening in a pub or drinking is a sensible allocation of time

yeah, I mean we all just sit there silently supping pint after pint

A good local is somewhere where you can drop in for a quick one and see someone you havn't for a while, catch up with local news, get invited out on a fishing trip or to take part in a friendly game of Cricket, maybe have a game of darts or dominos, try an ale you've not had before, get warm in front of the fire on a wet and cold winter's night and swap adventure stories, etc etc etc

It's a social occasion, a bit like a bogtrotters ride (I imagine), except that instead of standing around chatting on the side of a hill you do it in the warmth with a pint in your hand.

It's a social occasion, a bit like a bogtrotters ride (I imagine),

yeah, half an hour is OK 🙂

Hora - we all know you only frequent gay cabaret bars anyway. Chorlton has a few great pubs as well as the Marble. The Trev is my favourite. A proper boozer.

I love what happened a couple of years ago. A gang attempted an armed robbery on the place. The regulars took exception to this invasion of their personal space, dissarmed them, gave them a kicking, then sent them packing. Now thats the kind of pub I like drinking in 🙂

The Trev's just an older persons boozer. Generic beers ontap with two ales though. Its got alot of potential.

Whats that one at the 4 banks? At least they offer numerous different beers to tempt (and keep) new customers going in/interested.

Trev does allow dogs though. Thats a brucey-bonus. I love dogs in pubs. It changes the atmosphere of the place and chills people.