I don't get it - further to the knife on a plane thread earlier, I had my locking blade gerber taken off me a few years ago, for the reason that it had a locking blade.
What makes locking blades more dangerous than non lockers. not as if they are sharper is it?
STW, I await thee wisdom.
Stab easier with them.
Its more that all knives are illegal to carry with an exception made for small folding pocket knives
Bout flick knives isn't it?
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What makes locking blades more dangerous than non lockers. not as if they are sharper is it?
Stab someone without a locking blade, blade folds over and takes your fingers off.
So they get replaced by Stanley Knives etc???
Great piece of legislation! Lock-able knives are very useful in many ways so shame that they are banned.
Not much penetration with a Stanley, more your slasher's weapon. Those kitchen knives though, they really ought to be banned.
Stanley knives are okay to slash but no good for stabbing, the blade is the wrong profile and won't go in furth enough to damage organs and threaten life. 🙂
all sound like pretty thin excuses to be honest.
at the end of the day there are a host of things that can be used as weapons - just seems a shame that you are a criminal for carrying something as mundane as a multi-tool.
Which also begs the question, why are they so easy to buy if they are illegal?
They are NOT illegal to own. It is illegal TO CARRY any knife without good cause with an exception for small folding knives.
it's already illegal to stab someone, why the necessity to ban specific stabbing implements?
those that wish to stab will always find an alternative stabber...
Lock-able knives are very useful in many ways
Really like what?
Absolutely no need to carry a knife in the UK, unless you fantasise about being John Rambo.
at the end of the day there are a host of things that can be used as weapons
And in the morning too...
TJ is actually right:
"It is an offence for any person, without lawful authority or good reason, to have with him in a public place, any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed except for a folding pocket-knife which has a cutting edge to its blade not exceeding 3 inches." [CJA 1988 section 139(1)]
Owt larger, you need a 'good reason' for carrying it.
Stupid rule anyway, and a waste of public money pushing through such a knee-jerk populist bit of legislation. Hazzunt stopped stabbings, has it? Or even reduced the number of incidents. Just pandering to media hysteria.
it's already illegal to stab someone, why the necessity to ban specific stabbing implements?those that wish to stab will always find an alternative stabber...
I knew people who thought carrying knives made them hard when I was a teenager, not the sort of kids involved in crime just teenagers playing up. I suspect that most people on here and their families would be more at danger from a random incident with someone like that than from known criminal gang members.
Removing the availability of the weapons reduces the risk.
Did you see that program this week? I believe it's called 'The News'
There was a long segment about lunatic youths trying to slot each other over a Training shoe sale.
So, do you need to ask? It's not about normal people carrying a tool, it's about losers feeling more manly by having something pointy in their pocket. And the need they have to settle an argument by sticking it in someone they don't much care for.
Absolutely no need to carry a knife in the UK
Really? Praps for some folk, but not others.
When I worked in shops, a small penknife was very handy for opening boxes and stuff. I'd imagine there are myriad other uses other people have for them too.
There's absolutely no real need for many people to drive cars in the UK, and more people die in car accidents every year, than are stabbed with knives....
Elf - thats 1988 legislation IIRC and is merely repeating earlier stuff.
As for knife crime - much less than when I was a kid. Like almost all crime its massively down from its peak 20 years ago although climbing again now
When I worked in shops, a small penknife was very handy for opening boxes and stuff. I'd imagine there are myriad other uses other people have for them too.
Using a knife in a place of work is very different from carrying it around on the streets, no need to take it on the bus home with you at the end of the day is there.
I'm not talking about carrying them habitually - I don't, and never did. I had it confiscated at an airport when I was heading out on a photoshoot for work (multi - tools are handy for these things).
It was at a time when I was teaching a lot of sailing (again, a situation where multi tools are useful, and a good knife is absolutely essential) and it was juts something I had in my bag. No John Rambo aspirations here.
locking knives do tend to save your fingers being chopped off.
as amedias says, if you're into stabbing people, theres nearly always something close to hand to use to get stabbing with.
amedias - Member
it's already illegal to stab someone, why the necessity to ban specific stabbing implements?those that wish to stab will always find an alternative stabber...
*assumes for a moment that you are not trolling
Would you prefer it if a Police officer who finds a person in possession of a knife (locking or otherwise) without good reason then simply allows them on their way, even when they give the explanation "it's for my own protection innit?"
The actual law was that it was illegal to carry a FIXED bladed knife. CBA to look up the actual case but a barrister succesfully argued that a locking blade is the same as a fixed blade. I am not sure wether the wording of the law was changed or if it's just that a precedent was set by this case. This is why a sub 3" folding knife is legal to carry but NOT if it has a locking blade.
Somehow I don't think the legislaters considered that they had better ban locking knives in case someone injured their fingers while stabbing someone else 🙄
Absolutely no need to carry a knife in the UK, unless you fantasise about being John Rambo
Er, no, not necessarily. I've always got a swiss army knife on me; in a world where every other product comes encased in rigid plastic it gets a lot of use. If it had a locking blade it would be a damn sight more useful,especially in the garden, but sadly the scum bag element in society has yet again led to daft laws being imposed that affect the rest of us.
Removing the availability of the weapons reduces the risk.
So what are you going to do, ban all knives?
How will I cut up my onions?
Shall we ban all cars too, as so many die in road accidents?
If someone intends to hurt someone, they will find a means to do so. Banning certain types of knives and not others is practically useless. If someone can't get a flick-knife, they'll just use a kitchen knife. Simples.
I'd imagine most stabbings are done with legally available knives anyway. Most people killed by cars are probbly killed by legally owned cars.
I was once threatened by a lad with, of all things, a door spring thing, y'know, what stop doors from slamming quickly? I picked up a handy brick to 'even the score'. What a daft situation, and what rubbish 'weapons'. 😆
That door spring still cooduv done a lot of damage, if not killed someone. Shall we ban door springs? Bricks?
See, don't matter what you do, a dedicated criminal intent on hurting someone will always find a way round things.
Beer glasses made of safety glass would help prevent a lot of serious injuries, but there's no way the pub industry would suck up the significant extra cost, and no way the public would accept significant price rises as a result.
Elf - copper stops someone and finds a locking knife on them it makes the arrest and conviction easy. No need to prove intent to use it or anything.
Using a knife in a place of work is very different from carrying it around on the streets, no need to take it on the bus home with you at the end of the day is there.
I din't have a locker. Where'm I sposed to leave it? And we weren't allowed to have stanley type knives in the shop for 'health and safety' reasons. Just stupid. How TF am I sposed to open a flipping box?
in a world where every other product comes encased in rigid plastic it gets a lot of use.
Do you really have to open these products the minute you leave the shop or could they really wait until you get home? How often do you honestly buy a product that comes in such packaging?
Er, no, not necessarily. I've always got a swiss army knife on me; in a world where every other product comes encased in rigid plastic it gets a lot of use. If it had a locking blade it would be a damn sight more useful,especially in the garden, but sadly the scum bag element in society has yet again led to daft laws being imposed that affect the rest of us.
In the garden, use proper tools, opening plastic packaging use scissors you are just making excuses, you don't need to carry a knife you want too.
Elf - you carry a small folding knife
Elf - copper stops someone and finds a locking knife on them it makes the arrest and conviction easy.
And criminalises people who would otherwise be Law-Abiding Citizens.
Person gets nicked for having a knife on them, loses job, ends up needing money to buy food to survived/pay mortgage/keep junior in pony lessons, gets knife, stabs shop assistant for £28.43 in till.
Innocent person dead, cos of stupid legislation. 😐
I din't have a locker. Where'm I sposed to leave it? And we weren't allowed to have stanley type knives in the shop for 'health and safety' reasons. Just stupid. How TF am I sposed to open a flipping box?
Its part of your job, get your employer to provide the proper tools.
Elf - you carry a small folding knife
No, I carry an illegal firearm; may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb, eh?
It's not actually very good for opening boxes, I've found....
Its part of your job, get your employer to provide the proper tools.
No you're right; the fifty-nine people who I stabbed with my penknife's lives cooduv bin saved had my employer supplied me with a stanley knife. Of course.
Beer glasses made of safety glass would help prevent a lot of serious injuries, but there's no way the pub industry would suck up the significant extra cost, and no way the public would accept significant price rises as a result.
Illegal to serve alcohol in non toughened glass here in Glasgow if you've got a late licence. It has to be toughened glass or decanted into a plastic cup.
you don't need to carry a knife you want too.
What a very odd comment.
*assumes for a moment that you are not trolling
big assumption, I was half trolling....
I do get why, I just don't like the *concept* of banning specific items because of the use some people can put them to.
Removing the availability of the weapons reduces the risk.
The responsibility is always with the person who commits the act, otherwise its only a few more steps until you're blaming people for getting mugged by being in the wrong area...oh hang on, we do that already....
why not just ban people from the area, reducing the availability of victims in the area would surely reduce the risk?
Angry stabby people get angry and stabby, many everyday things can become weapons very easily, and if nothing else, they'll use their fists, feet etc.
Banning the weapons doesn't address the problem does it?
In reality it's never so black and white and I'd rather not have people wandering around willy nilly with knives or guns in their pockets, just on the off-chance that they are not nutters, but that doesn't make me feel any more comfortable about the idea of banning items based on their potential to do harm in the wrong hands.
Its actually against the law to carry any offensive weapon, and this can be decided on by a police oficer so even a buch of keys can be seen as offensive, along with a screwdriver etc.
They can all cause injury.
Chortling at all the urban Ray Mears
What a very odd comment.
Why?
Its just the same as people wanting a new bike and justifying it as a need. No one has given reason for carrying a knife around in a pocket, just working situations where they should be kept in the workplace.
MSP, while I agree that if just one persons life is saved by the laws on knife possesion then thats a good thing - I had two kiwi fruit for lunch and so put my opinel in my lunchbox (it locks so would be considered illegal) Is that a good enough excuse? (For you I mean, not in the eyes of the law)
Believe me there is nothing "Rambo-esque" about sitting around with kiwi juice dribbling down your chin. The knife is just a tool same as the tyre lever I used a few minutes later.
Illegal to serve alcohol in non toughened glass here in Glasgow
If it were illegal to serve alcohol in Glasgow (or indeed anywhere) then surely that would be more effective, as it seems that alcohol is the catalyst for violence.
Of course, there is the flawed assumption that the non-law abiding person will give a to$$ what the law says, while the law-abiding citizen is penalised for wanting to carry a knife for completely legitimate reasons.
you don't need to carry a knife you want too.What a very odd comment
I agree, very odd.
opening plastic packaging use scissors you are just making excuses
Do you really have to open these products the minute you leave the shop or could they really wait until you get home? How often do you honestly buy a product that comes in such packaging?
I travel a lot for work and I quite often find my well equipped kitchen drawer with the scissors in isn't always close to hand.
I carry a knife all the time, and have never sweated or worried about being caught. I have 2x canoe / sailing knives, both fixed about 2-3" blade, a climbing knife on harness with locking 2" blade and a couple of bushcraft knifes with 4" blades. I plan on buying a load of the fixed bushcraft knives (Mora's) for use with the kids and work.
I don't think there is any relation to knife ownership and crime, but I do think there is one between a paranoid society that see's knives as a threat, not a tool to use and mis-use of knifes, including crime.
I spent a few weeks in Sweden, where knife use is on the school curriculum from about the age of 6....they have highest knife carrying percentage in the world - and knife crime there is almost unhead of.
If it were illegal to serve alcohol in Glasgow (or indeed anywhere) then surely that would be more effective, as it seems that alcohol is the catalyst for violence.
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Its actually against the law to carry any offensive weapon, and this can be decided on by a police oficer so even a buch of keys can be seen as offensive, along with a screwdriver etc.
Exactly my point, there are already laws in place for dealing with people up to no good with *things* in their pockets (s****)
Matt, but a knife is seen here as defensive, and as a weapen against people who want what you have, or even to force others to hand over their posseions.
Lots of peeps get kiled by cars, yet they dont get banned.
I spent a few weeks in Sweden, where knife use is on the school curriculum from about the age of 6....they have highest knife carrying percentage in the world - [b]and knife crime there is almost unheard of[/b].
Is it?
http://www.icenews.is/index.php/2011/07/22/six-stabbed-at-swedish-wedding/
http://www.thelocal.se/37898/20111213/
http://www.thelocal.se/37596/20111127/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3098834.stm
1,299,995 other "unheard of" results on Google
Ok BoringBob; now go and find figures of numbers of stabbings per head of population in the UK and in Sweden.
Y'know, for balance, like...
i guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't beleive in knives/guns/screwdrivers/sharp toothbrushes/scissors being banned.
I think that people that mis-use them should be banned.
And by that I mean, by all means carry a knife, but if you use it on anyone, even threatening rather than actually putting the pointy end in them then there should be *proper* consequences, not just a stiff telling off and told to go on your way so you cna do it again tomorrow.
Ok BoringBob; now go and find figures of numbers of stabbings per head of population in the UK and in Sweden.Y'know, for balance, like...
No need. I didn't make daft statements like knife crime is unheard of in Sweden, when googling "stabbing Sweden" returns 1.3 million results.
Just because you carried a knife as a youth, don't get all defensive chav boy.
Of course, there is the flawed assumption that the non-law abiding person will give a to$$ what the law says, while the law-abiding citizen is penalised for wanting to carry a knife for completely legitimate reasons.
totally agree, if you have it in your head that you're going to go and stab someone I doubt the fact that you shouldn't be carrying a knife around is going to stop you.
I would also suggest that since knives are so readily available for legitimate uses, ie: kitchen, that you could never expect to stop that kind of intentional attack, which BTW, it seems like all (maybe not 1) of the linked cases above were, as there is always going to be a knife around for you to use.
I doubt there are many 'stabbings of circumstance', most are people going out with the intention of stabbing someone, or carrying one with the intention of using it (if attacked by other gang etc.), which means the above applies, you've crossed the bigger line so the little one is meaningless.
When I used to stab schoolkids in the 80`s, I used a butterfly knife. Flick knives were for commoners.
googling "stabbing Sweden" returns 1.3 million results.
'Stabbing UK' returns [i]seventeen million[/i] results.
Now, let's look at the figures....
Population of Sweden: 9.5 million aprox.
Population of UK: 62 million approx.
So, that's a ratio of 6.5:1, roughly.
17 vs 1.3 million = 13.1:1, roughly.
Don't have the figures for knife possession by citizens by either country, but having bin there/knowing people from there, I'd say the figures are a lot higher for Sweden.
So, I think we can safely conclude from that bit of scientific research, that knife crime in Sweden is significantly lower than in the UK, despite a higher rate of knife possession. 😀
Just because you carried a knife as a youth, don't get all defensive chav boy.
Oh dear...
I'm not being 'defensive', as I don't actually feel threatened in any way. You're resortion to insults suggest that perhaps it is in fact [i]you[/i] who feel threatened... 😉
been known to carry a knife for trail maintenance work, 4inch locking blade but it was the wood saw that is why i have it.
amedias - Member
by all means carry a knife, but if you use it on anyone
then there should be *proper* consequences
🙄
The old law was that "anything you carry as a weapon is illegal" law was supplemented with an "all knives are illegal except small folding ones" law to deal with *rseholes who carried knives and used the defence "[i]wasn't going to use that 6 inch sheath knife to stab anyone h'officer, its for peeling me apples, innit" [/i]
Unfortunately it was fundamentally poorly written (surprise) and did not define what was meant by "folding knife" so when a yobbo was done for carrying a locking folder, he argued it wasn't a "folding" knife, they were also concerned that having no definition for folding was a problem, as you could use a "folding" knife that only folded after removing a nut and bold and it could in theory still be "folding"... So the court came to a nice pragmatic botched solution to ensure it prosecuted him despite him being right.. and henceforth locking knives are only actually illegal as case law has decided a "locking" knife is not a "folding knife" 😯
suffice to say, normal caveat's should apply - any knife that can be reasonably justified should never be a problem anywhere, and any "legal" knife can still see you put away if you're carrying it in the pub on a saturday night.
been known to carry a knife for trail maintenance work, 4inch locking blade but it was the wood saw that is why i have it.
understandable
walking down the high street slashing open plastic packets holding memory cards.
Not understandable
'Stabbing UK' returns seventeen million results.
Now, let's look at the figures....
Population of Sweden: 9.5 million aprox.
Population of UK: 62 million approx.
So, that's a ratio of 6.5:1, roughly.
17 vs 1.3 million = 13.1:1, roughly.
Don't have the figures for knife possession by citizens by either country, but having bin there/knowing people from there, I'd say the figures are a lot higher for Sweden.
So, I think we can safely conclude from that bit of scientific research, that knife crime in Sweden is significantly lower than in the UK, despite a higher rate of knife possession.
but i wasnt comparing to the uk?
Just questioning the statement that sweden was some sort of stab free utopia
It is compared to Hackney.
organdonor
roll your smiley eyes all you want, but if you must, please don't quote lines without the context of the preceding paragraphs and without actually offering up some form of counter point...otherwise you might as well just sit in the corner and tut.
walking down the high street slashing open plastic packets holding memory cards.Not understandable
why not, if he happens to have a knife (for legitimate reasons obviously) in his pocket and needs to get into the packaging?
Or would you rather he carried scissors around instead, or is that not allowed either?
What a ridiculous thread, why do you think locking knives are illegal? If you carry a knife for any other reason than for a legitimate 'work' reason then what purpose would you need one for? If you carry a knife and you are confronted by someone what would you do? What do you think organised crime gangs would think if lock knives were not illegal, they would be armed to the high teeth without fear of repercussion! I carry a Gerber multi tool with locking blade on my work utility belt, as a police officer it comes in very handy sometimes, it stays on my belt when I leave work in my locker, I am covered in law. As above, what is the world coming to when there is a need to ask why lock knives are illegal, ridiculous!
A bloke I know once stabbed a policeman in the head with a pair of scissors, permanently disabling him.
Scissors would fall under pointed bladed article, arrestable offence in the right circumstances.
Yes, he was arrested iirc.
You're right - logical, moral and legal argument would all be wasted on this thread hence 🙄you might as well just sit in the corner and tut.
*wanders off to sit in the corner, tutting*
what is the world coming to when there is a need to ask why lock knives are illegal, ridiculous!
What is the world coming to when people are ridiculed for debating a law which has some dubious elements?
There are already laws to govern carrying offensive weapons - why ban such a specific one? other pointy objects are avaialble.
Gangs armed to the teeth if they were legal? - see above
List of items that are not illegal but can be used as deadly weapons...almost endless, but they are all covered by existing law about carrying offensive weapons.
And I'm mildly amused by the concept of 'organised crime gangs' worrying about breaking the law 🙂
As above, what is the world coming to when there is a need to ask why lock knives are illegal, ridiculous!
Hear, Hear....but for different reasons obviously 😉
I carry a Gerber multi tool with locking blade on my work utility belt, as a police officer it comes in very handy sometimes, it stays on my belt when I leave work in my locker, I am covered in law.
Can you clarify thorpie, you carry a multi tool with a locking blade in public? (On patrol etc. I suppose even within the confines of the Police Station could be classed as a public place)
You're right - logical, moral and legal argument would all be wasted on this thread hence
*wanders off to sit in the corner, tutting*
you obviously haven't read my earlier posts then, if you had you would have noticed that I'm actually stuck in a moral/logical dilemma of being opposed to some aspects and concepts while accepting that in reality and when dealing with real life there are compromises and sacrifices that need to be made.
If you have some well reasoned and logical thoughts to bring to the table, please bring them, I'm all for a healthy debate and if you assume my mind is made up then you have judged me unfairly.
Can't believe I am arguing with a member of the constabulary, but!!
What do you think organised crime gangs would think if lock knives were not illegal, they would be armed to the high teeth without fear of repercussion!
Are these the same [b]unarmed[/b] groups of charming young men that we read about in the news? So glad they are not armed - it would make the world such a nasty place 😉
very amused at the thought of organised gangs making sure they only carry legal weapons on the streets with them - I'm surprised a police officer could be that naive*.
My OP was more to do with why LOCKING BLADES are illegal, and why other pointy stuff isn't.
How I see it, surely an object only becomes an offensive weapon when it's user decide to use it in that fashion. I absolutely agree that you shouldn't have a knife on you unless you've got a good reason for it (as I did as a sailing instructor/using it on shoots), my point was that a folding knife really isn't any less dangerous than a locking one, and the police officer that took my gerber actually said that had the locking mechanism not been operational I wouldn't have received the caution I got.
*not really, come to think of it.
I think it's more about context isn't it?
The Rozzers work off of guidelines and legal precedent and if a reasonable explanation for someone carrying a knife can be made they will be open to it... probably...
Frinstance:
Chav scummer wandering about town with a kitchen knife hidden within easy reach in a pocket, and no reasonable explanation for having it in his possession, the Rozzers can reasonably suspect him of planning to use it as a weapon...
Or
Perfectly respectable fella on a £3k dandy horse carrying a multitool in the bottom of a camelbak, that happens to include a knife as one of it's tools, it's reasonable to expect that he is not carrying the blade for use as a weapon and I think the rozzers would be able to make the distinction.
I don't go shopping with a knife in my pocket and I wouldn't expect other shoppers to do so...
I think people are selling the police a bit short here, I mean they apply the law within the given guidance and can apply their own judgements, it's simply that there are very few circumstances that can "reasonably" legitimize carrying a 3"+ fixed blade in public TBH...
i had a nice swissarmy forester - they have locking blade and screwdriver
[url= http://www.victorinox.com/ch/category/Category/Pocket-knives-with-lock-blade/Pocket-knives-with-lock-blade-Linerlock-111-mm/1106?f=category&v=1/100/1004/1106&m=add& ]click for range[/url]
the locking made the screwdriver and knife much safer to use - shame I lost it..
cookeaa - Member I think it's more about context isn't it?
Let's hope so
I think people are selling the police a bit short here, I mean they apply the law within the given guidance and can apply their own judgements,
Again, let's hope so. But it was a police office who came out with the pretty categorical:
What a ridiculous thread, why do you think locking knives are illegal?...what is the world coming to when there is a need to ask why lock knives are illegal, ridiculous!
I know its the Mail but was widely reported in most other media at the time.
Not really sure 'Perfectly respectable fella on a £3k dandy horse carrying a multitool in the bottom of a camelbak,' would get away with it if he ran into this police officer or judge.
Come on DB - just look at that bloke - obvious bloody criminal. 😉
When the knife was found in his glove compartment (again, soooo suspicious!!) I wonder how he answered:
If you carry a knife for any other reason than for a legitimate 'work' reason then what purpose would you need one for?
Bring back 'angin - Oh, wait that's Great Expectations tonight (or tomorrow's episode)!!
the locking made the screwdriver and knife much safer to use
This.
The OP asked why LOCKING blades are illegal. As previously stated it is NOT illegal to have a folding blade of 3" or less but if the same knife has a mechanism to lock the blade it then becomes illegal to have in a public place. It seems ridiculous that you are committing a criminal offence by riding around with a gerber/leatherman type multitool in your camelbak yet if you file off the locking tab on the knife blade, rendering it more dangerous to the LEGITIMATE user as it could fold on them in use, the same tool becomes legal.
Locking blades are not illegal. You can carry one with good reason.
Its simply that yo don't have to show good reason to carry a small folding knife. A cook may carry around his knives with no issue, similarly if yo have a need for a knife then its no problem to carry it. You only have to be able to justify it.
I got searched by the police on the the way home from working at the farm. I had a locking knife on my belt and they did get quite excited till i pointed out the cow shit on my trousers. This was almost 20 years ago though. I used to carry a knife almost all the time when i was a kid.