Just asking.
JHJ
It's a really long-winded bluff.
Depends what a good politician is. Is a good politician someone who represents effective policy or someone who generates interest and finds holes in his opposite number's argument?
Had a very similar discussion in 16 Towers the other day, 'cept the question was 'who was the last half decent UK politician?' I thought, maybe, Attlee qualified (welfare state and all that). Mrs 16 thought of Tony Benn. Then we were stumped. 🙁
As for now, who knows? In terms of representing local opinion, I suppose it would have to be an Independent of some kind. I don't know one tho.
I quite Like Jim Murphy.
Of the ones I'm familiar with, Skinner.
Current politician - [b]Alex Salmond[/b]. You may not agree with him but he is a very accomplished and skillful politician.
Past masters - [b]Tony Benn[/b] - head and shoulders above anybody else.
[i]
Jim Murphy[/i] ..........seriously?
Not current: Tony Benn, Michael Foot.
I quite Like Jim Murphy.
Soon to be an ex-politician if the latest polls are to be believed. It sounds like his only chance of keeping his seat would be tactical voting from the Tories.
It sounds like his only chance of keeping his seat would be tactical voting from the Tories.
It's a distinct possiblity given the amount of previous tory voters in that place.
Alan Johnson is ok. Ken Livingston is ok too.
They are all shite if you are at the wrong end.
😈
Jim Murphy?? In charge of Scottish Labour when their Scottish empire falls. Obviously "best" doesn't need to mean successful.
Dennis Skinner. A man of principle and integrity. Which means everyone in Parliament, including all his own party, hate him. As he shows them all up for the morally bankrupt political pygmies that are!
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Nick Clegg. He took leadership of a party which hadn't been in government for over 100 years and ended up Deputy Prime Minister of Britain.
Dennis Skinner. A man of principle and integrity.
If he had principles and integrity I doubt he'd still be in NuLab given it's probably significantly right of where the Tories where when he first joined the Labour party.
Well, interestingly I've not heard a thing from any of my candidates, and the election is in a matter of weeks, so at a local level at least, I've no way of making a judgement. Idiots.
Steve - I'm sat reading his biography at the moment. An incredible man, brought up in grinding poverty, who got where he is through hard graft and sacrifice! What comes across isn't some careerist hankering for ministerial office, but a passionate desire to represent the interests of his constituants, particularly the poor and disadvantaged. In fact, the poor and disadvantaged generally. Something a lot more politicians should try concentrating on!
I've not got to the Nu Labour years yet. I'm sure he'll have hated Blair! And I'm sure it's be mutual! I'm sure the leadership have always regarded him as a right PITA!!!! But his focus would still remain the interests of his constituents. And I'm sure he'd regard Nu labour, despite its many faults, as considerably better than the alternative!
I'd suggest Farage, though I don't like what he stands for.
He has identified a fairly widely held couple of concerns, he has brought them to political discussion for the first time in a generation, and he doesn't try and pander to the middle ground.
He's still an arse though.
I might read his biography - it'll be interesting to see how he reconciles his socialist beliefs with what Blair and Brown did to the party, betraying people like him and his constituents.
It's a good read! And demonstrates just how far the careerists are removed from men like him. I'm sure the word 'betrayal' will crop up regularly with regard to Blair and brown. But they're long gone (thank god!) and he's still here, making a nuisance of himself on behalf of those who voted for him!
Hazel Blears.
Easily forgotten is the essential truth of politics, that in order to make a difference you need to be elected to power, to make a real difference you need to stay there!
Principles and integrity mean little if you spend a lifetime in opposition - without winning, it's all just noise!
That's why I would exclude Skinner, Benn & Agent Boot of the KGB - conviction politicians they might be, but what they really achieved was to split their party down the middle and hold it from power for a decade.
At least Blair, for all his faults, learned that lesson, and for that you have to give him (and Clegg) a grudging respect!.
No nomination for your hero ninfan? Thatcher?!
Not being a labour voter / supporter I have to say the late Tony Benn, Dennis Skinner and George Galloway
@binners - Alan Johnson
Took a shed load of flak, could have been leader but turned it down, remarkable bio.
Thatch in her prime was both a conviction politician and ruthless, I dont think that conviction makes for a great politician, you need to be able to recognise when you have made a mistake and back down, and when to compromise - Thatch fails that test, though hugely admire her for winning the Cold War single handed 😉
Hague could have been one of the greats, if he had not been thrown in to an unwinnable position too early - if he came to the fore now, without the baggage from his previous leadership, he would be legendary.
At a national level Dennis Skinner has been wholly ineffectual beyond the entertainment value he offers in the otherwise somewhat boring environs of the House of Commons. I have no idea how effective his work at constituency level has been.
Perhaps a man of 'principle and integrity' who saw his party hijacked and transformed into something unrecognizable from the one he first represented would have resigned his seat and stood as an independent? Or perhaps helped to form a a party which could have challenged New Labour? Or perhaps have appeared on TV and radio chat shows and interviews, and newspaper columns, and in other ways which connects with ordinary people, to make the case for an alternative argument?
Perhaps a man of principle and integrity could have thought of other things beyond wisecracks from the backbenches?
There's nothing wrong imo with Skinner's wisecracks btw, his wit is excellent, clever, and highly amusing, and clearly a great boast to morale for many on the Left. But it takes more than a boost to morale to win a battle.
EDIT : Just in case that it might be misconstrued that I am personally criticizing Dennis Skinner, I'm not, and I don't doubt his 'principles and integrity', I'm just questioning how effective he has been as a national politician. I like Dennis Skinner a lot, but I think that someone like Ken Livingstone has been a bit more effective.
^^ ernie +1.
Skinner is no doubt a conviction politician but what has he contributed to UK politics* aside from scheduled heckling/wisecracks ?
At the age of 83 isn't it time for him to stand aside for a younger candidate ?
* wider than a constituent MP
Skinner is local, next door to me (constituency). He may not have the reigns of achieving anything on a national level purely because of the way he is contained by the 'system'. What is a genuine left winger ever going to achieve in our centre right structures?
He has done some impressive david and Goliath stuff on a constiuencty level (Arkwright Town is a great story). He put good resistance to the Iraq war and the pit closures.
Sadly the press love to hate him. That's shaped his career.
Galloway is also a 5* when not being a celebrity and the way he took on the yanks about his involvement with Saddam was legendary.
Not partial to many Tories but I quite like Ken Clarke and John Major, both moderates that should have retired a while ago.
[quote=rone said] John Major, both moderates that should have retired a while ago.
He did, in 2001.
Yeah as MP but he's still been vocal.
Mainly aimed at KC.
Douglas Hurd - skilled statesman and diplomat.
Charles Kennedy - possibly the only politician in the last 15 years who I'd trust not to **** me over for the sake of it.
Nick Clegg. He took leadership of a party which hadn't been in government for over 100 years and ended up Deputy Prime Minister of Britain.
Certainly quite an impressive achievement. Personally I reckon he's the best of all the party leaders.
Personally I reckon he's the best of all the party leaders.
Not an amazingly competitive field though. I'd say he tries the most to be liked.
Vince Cable was okay once.
Best is tricky I guess. A strong leader that could make great decisions is likely to divide.
Certainly quite an impressive achievement. Personally I reckon he's the best of all the party leaders.
But obviously not as good as Tony Blair who won three general elections.....that's clearly a more "impressive achievement".
I reckon Tony Blair should top the list of best living politicians in the UK.
He does live in the UK most of the time doesn't he ?
Margaret Hodge of the current bunch, or Alan Johnson
Not too keen on some of his doings when in government, but for balance if I had to name a tory, Ken Clark
Of ones I can remember from the past, the late John Smith.
In my humble opinion his untimely death was a tragedy for the country.
Hague could have been one of the greats,
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Always intrigued to know if John Smith would have been as great as we all hoped he would be.
And I agree that Hague would make a great Tory leader now, but they stuffed him over too young.
Having been on the receiving end of an MPs enquiry from Dennis Skinner, I wish he'd retired 20 years ago!
Simon Danczuk gets my vote. Alan Johnson seems pretty sound too...
as for the others? Like being invited to a sewerage farm to pick my favorite turd.
Certainly quite an impressive achievement. Personally I reckon he's the best of all the party leaders.
On the other hand if he hadn't destroyed his parties credibility by selling out to the Tories in exchange for a few ministerial cars and a useless AV referendum, then perhaps his party would have been well placed to offer a credible alternative to Labour and Tory in this election, continuing the progress they made in 2010 instead of reversing it.
And I agree that Hague would make a great Tory leader now
He doesn't have the hair for it.
Was going to mention John Smith. Obviously he's not current 🙁 wife was in attendance when he ws taken ill (the first time..)
Again from the past, would have said likes of Sam Galbraith, Dennis Canavan, even likes of Heseltine and John Biffen. Charles Kennedy - for all his foibles - as said he's someone who says what I believe he believes in..
I always admired Tony Benn and Paddy Ashdown.
Paddy Ashdown especially, more pragmatic than the more idealistic Tony Benn and struck me as a practical, useful guy - current lot aside I've always like the liberals, no purely power mad type joins the Lib Dems, if you want to be PM one day you join the big two.
Not to mention if you look as his background, he was basically James Bond 😉
If more Tory bigwigs were like IDS and Hague, they would be much better off.
To the OP - An oxymoron surely?
Dantsw - are you serious about IDS ??? He's horrendous, the things he's doing right now to the benefits system and to probation services are shocking but the media are looking the other way for some unknown reason...
Ashdown should have been PM he would have been great just wrong timing 🙁
Hywel Williams Plaid Cymru helped me out of a bloody big hole so my vote goes for him. And he's a genuinely nice guy.
JHJIt's a really long-winded bluff.
Get a grip with your outlandish conspiracy theories, next you'll be saying the illuminati (if they existed) are properly scared of me.
Anyhoo, back to the real world...
John Mann is excellent and pulls no punches, Paul Flynn is a good soul too.
Always intrigued to know if John Smith would have been as great as we all hoped he would be.
IMO we was robbed by John Smith's untimely death. He was an old school right-wing Labour politician, rather than a career politician who saw Labour as an easier vehicle for personal achievement and gain than the Conservative Party (You would be surprised with the advantages that private education and middle-class speech gives an ambitious person in the Labour Party - Tony Blair would more than likely have melted into insignificance in the Etonian dominated Conservative Party).
And as an old school right-wing Labour politician with personal integrity John Smith would have, despite obvious substantial differences with the left of the party of how to achieve the goals, had the same genuine commitment to a fairer society built on peace and social justice.
The man was a towering giant compared to the self-serving pygmy who followed him, imo.
Bizarrely I'm alright about Rory Stewart after seeing his Middle Eastern documentary on the telly - Despite being a Tory, old-Etonian, PPE graduate, OBE (and sounding and looking like it). He's had some involvement and responsibility in Middle Eastern affairs but he's well informed, written books and most importantly walked extensively around the area so knows the people and places first hand (hurray - porfolio = experience!!). He has been the perpetual public servant through various jobs though so he loses points for that.
He's not my MP though.
Angela "take that" Eagle followed closely by good old Jacob R-M
[quote=teamhurtmore said]Angela "take that" Eagle
😯
Did you see her interview this morning when questioned about Labour's unpaid interns ? 🙂
Damn, missed it.
Well if people are choosing dead and former politicians then I'll hang my hat on Peter Tatchell,still alive and more of an activist but he certainly tried to get into parliament.Witty retorts from the floor of the house Skinneresque style are one thing but putting your own personal safety on the line for what you believe in takes real guts.His CV reads like a best of the libertarian STW threads compilation.If he had a beard and an SS he would be the biggest STW hitter of all time 🙂
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Tatchell
Lots of suggestions for "which politician do you most respect" but the "best politician", sadly, has to be Nigel Farage, who seems to have managed to persuade a lot of people who would never consider voting Tory to support a party that's considerably more right wing than the Tories. I disagree with his views, but he's very effective.
franksinatra - MemberI quite Like Jim Murphy.
You are Jim Murphy and I claim my £5.
Honestly of the current bunch I'd say Farage. He's an 8th dan shitehawk but he's very good at what he does.
ernie_lynch - MemberIMO we was robbed by John Smith's untimely death
My dad's explanation of everything that's wrong with Westminster politics- John Smith died and Tony Blair didn't.
He's an 8th dan shitehawk but he's very good at what he does.
Better than Salmond though? Love him or hate him, he is effective.
The ones I respect come from many partys:
Margaret Hodge (her select comittee work is uncompromising).
Margaret Thatcher, dragged the country into the 21st century and saved us from being an inefficient mess like France.
Danny Alexander deserves credit for being the brains to control George Osborne.
I always used to say Jack Straw, but he is now tarnished.
Cameron never answers a question thats asked (from personal and observed experience and for this reason I don't respect him). Ed Milliband is the product of a dweeb being given PR steroids... trying to hard to connect and be butch.
I would love to see some better characters in Labours front bench. Ther's Andy Burnham who appears OK but not much else. Ed Balls is the one politician I have zero respect for.
Danny Alexander deserves credit for being the brains to control George Osborne.
Another soon to be ex-MP by the looks of it. Although given the choice if him or Douglas Alexander losing their seats I'd go for the latter. Douglas Alexander being a particularly nasty piece of work (as is his sister), where as Danny is merely a muppet.
I wouldn't get too carried with heaping praise on Farage's political skills. Much of UKIP's success has been down to Conservative, LibDem, and Labour failure, and the perceived lack of credibility of the established parties, rather than successful campaigning by UKIP. And quite frankly massive media publicity which no other party with so little parliamentary support enjoys.
In a region where there is a fairly credible alternative to the Conservatives, LibDem, and Labour, Scotland, UKIP do not do well at all.
Because UKIP is so dependent on the failure of their opponents rather than their own success there is very little substance behind them. This lack of solid core support has led to their support unraveling :
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/generalelection/general-election-2015-nigel-farage-is-on-course-to-lose-south-thanet-election-after-experts-predict-ukip-wipeout-10187516.html ]General Election 2015: Nigel Farage is on course to lose in South Thanet and Ukip faces wipeout, experts predict[/url]
If this prediction proves to be correct Farage will be resigning as party leader next month. I'm not sure whether a politician who repeatedly fails to get elected to Westminster, and whose party he leads fails after 20 years of existence to ever get more than 2 seats, can be described as being the best or most 'effective' politician.
If this prediction proves to be correct Farage will be resigning as party leader next month. I'm not sure whether a politician who repeatedly fails to get elected to Westminster, and whose party he leads fails after 20 years of existence to ever get more than 2 seats can be described as being the best or most 'effective' politician.
If there is a referendum on EU membership in the next few years then that would be down to UKIP and you would have to consider Farage effective, but it is a big if. For the same reason Salmond has been immensely effective.
Ann Cryer speaks a lot of sense, but some people on here would probably acuse her of being racist.
There's a difference between having an effect and being the most effective politician in the UK.
BTW I consider that UKIP are a serious hindrance in making the case for UK withdrawal from the EU.
There are lots of very sensible arguments in favour of UK withdrawal from the EU. Unfortunately as long as a party of fruitcakes, loonies, and closet racists, has a monopoly over the issue, they are never heard.
There's a difference between having an effect and being the most effective politician in the UK.
I'm going with Salmond. He might have lost the independence referendum but it was closer than most expected and he's put the SNP front and centre of UK politics in this election at least.
it was closer than most expected
Unless I'm not remembering correctly it was predicted be very close but there eventually turned out to be a clear 10% difference between the noes and the yeses ?
But either way I'm not convinced that makes Salmond the most effective politician in the UK.
Unless I'm not remembering correctly it was predicted be very close but there eventually turned out to be a clear 10% difference between the noes and the yeses ?
It wasn't really predicted to be close - I was expecting something like 60:40 so getting to 55:45 and getting the Westminster parties in enough of a panic to make promises that they hadn't even tested within their own parties was impressive. Him and the SNP may well change the face of UK politics.
Many of the names ^^^^ cited as 'best' haven't really been effective/had that much of an impact across the UK. Makes me wonder what 'best' means in this sense. Maybe that's the first question and the favourites square off from there?
I was expecting something like 60:40
Against? Initially I was expecting the Yes to win but as we got closer to the day I realised that it was no longer likely. But I was surprised that the eventual result showed a clear and unambiguous rejection by a 10% margin.
Against?
Yes - I didn't think there was any chance of a yes vote and I also thought a very narrow yes win would be bad news in the unlikely even it was to happen.
Initially I was expecting the Yes to win
There was never any chance of that. The next one could be different though.
Better than Salmond though? Love him or hate him, he is effective.
Salmond got his bluff called by Cameron, and then lost. Cameron > Salmond, by a [b]huge [/b]margin.
But despite Labour's implosion Cameron couldn't get a majority! Given that, I'd say Blair, maybe Boris Johnson or Livingston, but basically nobody given the current lot....
What next one ? The referendum has been held. There would only been one if the result had been yes, I can't see why there needs to be more than one because the result was no.
Cameron is not a great politician, unless you're measuring him against the idiots that the Labour party keep putting up, or a turncoat opportunist like Clegg.
Still at it?
Salmond, Sturgeon, Blair, Boris and Cable.
Not a comment on them being 'right', just they do it bloomin well.
What next one ?
The one that'll happen after England votes to leave the EU, or after an anti-Scottish backlash when a minority Labour government is propped up by the SNP.
There's a difference between having an effect and being the most effective politician in the UK.
I wasn't really trying to suggest who was the most effective, merely countering your analysis of Farage, which probably unfairly I read as you thinking him as ineffective. Single issue politicians are the easiest to judge on effectiveness - although your view that Farage is deterimental to the anti EU is new to me, do you really think the Left's arguments against EU would have got more coverage without UKIP?
Well I would like to think that if there was a debate over continued EU membership that the left would have a chance to make the case against. Unfortunately the rantings of right-wing bigots appears to drown out all sensible debate on the issue.
ernie_lynch - MemberBut either way I'm not convinced that makes Salmond the most effective politician in the UK.
Got closer to delivering his party's lifetime goal than anyone expected. Led the SNP to an overall majority in the Scottish parliament- something that it was designed to avoid. And now, the SNP's going to be the 3rd biggest party in the UK with astonishing domination of Scottish Westminster seats. I don't think many of the SNP's own members saw this coming. And arguably, the rise of SNP support is what led to the Scottish Parliament being formed in the first place.
He also made a massive move towards widening suffrage to 16 year olds- that could prove a lasting legacy for the whole UK when/if westminster catches up
He didn't achieve the overall goal and that's got to count against him but that was always seen as a long shot, and he achieved massive things along the way, which I do reckon outweigh most achievements of modern party leaders. Put it another way; if they'd not pushed for the referendum at all and just sat on their laurels, we'd still call his leadership a massive success.
And yeah, including Farage, who we're impressed is going to deliver an MP or two and then do nothing with them, Salmond's work is going to give the SNP 20 times that and take seats that I can barely believe are even under threat.
(quite a lot of the credit for that goes to the Labour party o'course)
On the other hand; he was divisive even among his own support, he developed a leadership style which was very effective in growing the party but he didn't seem to be able to get away from that once that job was done. And he's probably a bit of a spent force now. And he didn't achieve his top prize. So there's a lot to detract.
ernie_lynch - MemberWhat next one ? The referendum has been held. There would only been one if the result had been yes, I can't see why there needs to be more than one because the result was no.
Because democracy.
But they have got organised, they doesn't seem to be an organised anti EU movement on the left.
Well there is actually. Although obviously the right-press prefer UKIP.
If the point you're making is that I should be thinking "well at least he's making the case against the EU while no one else is", I don't think that. I would rather he didn't. Every time he speaks against the EU I cringe.