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Thanks for keep food (and no doubt drink) on the tables Tom.
What exactly is a “proper lockdown”
Limited time outdoors and only for a set list of reasons. We could even have to register on a govt website what and when we are going out for essentials/exercise. Get stopped and you have to produce a email/printout to show it's registered. If you do too many registered outings in a given timeframe you have to answer a few extra questions to explain why. Caught outside with no paperwork? Simple fine, no recourse.
Of course that will never happen, for multiple reasons.
and how do you suppose people’s mental health will fair after 4 weeks of 20+ hours at home?
All I know is I'm struggling! Not a big fan of watching telly for hours on end and like the outdoors.
Without trying to sound callous, the average stay in a nursing home is only 2 years IIRC, which probably means your average nursing home resident has significantly less than 2 years to live, so why make vaccinating them a priority?
Because they are very vulnerable, not all care home residents have a poor quality of life, the staff are at high risk and examples like one care home had half its residents die over a two week period over christmas.
Do you really want to go down the road of putting different values on different peoples lives? How about someone with cerebral palsy? Learning difficulties? etc etc.
Vaccinate the staff as top priority, rigorous isolation for residents (including the staff, with pay incentives to make it palatable, until the situation improves). Give the jabs thus freed up to hospital staff.
People receiving furlough pay caught taking the p!ss on days out to beauty spots? Instant withdrawal of all furlough support. That'd concentrate some minds.
Furloughed workers trained up and pressed into volunteering to get vaccination centres up and running, etc.
pressed into volunteering
Nor sure you understand what volunteering means
I know what taking the piss means.
I know what taking the piss means.
You were joking?
Limited time outdoors and only for a set list of reasons. We could even have to register on a govt website what and when we are going out for essentials/exercise. Get stopped and you have to produce a email/printout to show it’s registered. If you do too many registered outings in a given timeframe you have to answer a few extra questions to explain why. Caught outside with no paperwork? Simple fine, no recourse.
Of course that will never happen, for multiple reasons.
they do/did this in greece, it seemed quite effective.
Does it preserve your delicate sensibilities better if I say 'Furloughed workers trained up and encouraged to do their civic duty helping get vaccination centres up and running, to partially compensate the state holiday pay they've been on for the last nine months'?
Does it preserve your delicate sensibilities better if I say ‘Furloughed workers trained up and encouraged to do their civic duty helping get vaccination centres up and running, to partially compensate the state holiday pay they’ve been on for the last nine months’?
You can say what you like I couldnt care less,your simplistic populist bobbins is still bobbins though.
Going by New Zealand, Vietnam et al, it would appear that one big lockdown is better for people’s mental health than 9 months of on and off lockdowns and ‘tiers’…?
Thats a moo point as we (uk anyway) are now in multiple lockdowns one big lockdown is impossible.
Limited time outdoors and only for a set list of reasons. We could even have to register on a govt website what and when we are going out for essentials/exercise. Get stopped and you have to produce a email/printout to show it’s registered
Does it preserve your delicate sensibilities better if I say ‘Furloughed workers trained up and encouraged to do their civic duty helping get vaccination centres up and running, to partially compensate the state holiday pay they’ve been on for the last nine months’?
Maybe im too soft but all this stuff sounds pretty extreme. And not a world I want to live in. The idea that people need papers to leave their house and furloughed workers are "trained up" to work for free sounds mad.
Going by New Zealand, Vietnam et al, it would appear that one big lockdown is better for people’s mental health than 9 months of on and off lockdowns and ‘tiers’…?
And causes less damage to the economy, less time funding furlough et etc.
Being brutally harsh, even if suicides doubled over this Covid year, that's less than two weeks current Covid deaths. And while mental health is not just about deaths, well neither are the long term effects of Covid for 1 in 20.
Anyway, this morning's crisis solution meeting with MrsMC addressed the worldwide shortage of vaccine vials - can they not just get sterilised and recycled back to the filling plants? What obvious thing are we not getting?
I was sobered by the sight of someone vaping and how the cloud gave me an idea how much our exhale extends while outside.
While our breath does indeed go further than we think, it's nothing like the cloud of vapour that a vaper is inhaling and then exhaling.
furloughed workers are “trained up” to work for free sounds mad.
They wouldn't be working for free. Unlike many (ex)self employed, SME business owners and the like, they've been getting paid all the way through this - and often more than the factory, farm, shop and delivery workers keeping the system running. There's a fundamental inequity taking place here.
furloughed workers are “trained up” to work for free
They won't be working for free, they are on furlough paid for by the state (ultimately us). Being paid, with money. I will concede that they may be paid under minimum wage which may be unlawful but not everyone is a minimum wage slave like me.
The idea that people need papers to leave their house
Given the crowds at beauty spots we have a section of the populace that don't know how to apply rule 1and these may be the ones that lead to a curtailment of our previous freedoms.
My thoughts on how we're dealing with this keep swinging from one side to another.
I agree with Joe that papers to leave the house is utter madness and along the same lunacy as criminalising a walk round a lake with a takeaway coffee or throwing snowballs in the street but the recent non stop relentless bad news on rising cases and deaths had me thinking there is no choice but to carry on with these lockdowns but then I read something like this article below and it makes me think 'have we actually lost the plot in some sort of mass hysteria and are we fundamentally getting this wrong in every way possible because of our innate desire to control the uncontrollable. Are the unintended consequences of our choices having a worse effect on things and is there now far too much invested to change track and rethink?'
Would appreciate others thoughts on this perspective.
https://www.thinkscotland.org/thinkpolitics/articles.html?read_full=14396
Being brutally harsh, even if suicides doubled over this Covid year, that’s less than two weeks current Covid deaths
Point understood but suicide rates are understated, as per a recent course I was on to return a suicide verdict a coroner needs some clear things to be evident which they aren't always. There's also possibly a reluctance to return that verdict if possible to avoid it, because of the stigma (families particularly). The course trainer had a report (didn't write down) but reckoned 3-5x understated
Some of the comments here make me wonder what the world would look like if it was run by singletrack. It seems its a world where we need papers to leave the house, we basically have work camps for those who are not fully employed under the guise of "civic duty" and a group of leaders who believe their actions are holier than thou and everyone else is the dregs of society. the mind boggles.
Would appreciate others thoughts on this perspective.
https://www.thinkscotland.org/thinkpolitics/articles.html?read_full=14396/blockquote >
The author could do with understanding a few basic points (from this thread, even). That report contains contradictions and frankly illogical thinking, with no apparent consideration of what the alternative might look like, or how practically feasible or desirable it might be.
Some of the comments here make me wonder what the world would look like if it was run by singletrack.
I'm partly inclined to agree, but overall I think it's a good thing to have a broad range of ideas and opinions to be discussed. Places like France have enforced forms for leaving this house, it's not completely mad in and of itself, it mainly boils down to the level of trust in (and controls on) the government to do the right thing. I actually think that getting a few hundred STWers to replace MPs would end up not doing the worst job in the world.
Obviously there'd be a significant demographic bias in representation of the population though. Tax free Audis for all etc!
Maybe im too soft but all this stuff sounds pretty extreme. And not a world I want to live in.
It is extreme, and I can see why it's outside your comfort zone. I wouldn't go so far as to call you soft. I don't want to live in that world either, I can assure you.
But dealing with that world for 2-3 months (with the big caveat that government support is put in place, proper track and trace is brought in etc) rather than trying to live in the current one for the next 12(?) months doesn't seem like such a bad trade off to me. Temporary loss of individual rights versus longer term loss of individual rights.
Do you rip a plaster off in one quick move or tease it off for 5 minutes?
the mind boggles
We don’t need laws to keep us at home. We just need people to do what needs doing, and to be supported by the government when they do. “Tougher measures” do not have to mean stricter laws… it can mean clearer advice for those that currently think that mingling at work/play/worship is currently “safe”.
vaccine vials – can they not just get sterilised and recycled back to the filling plants? What obvious thing are we not getting?
(Not a vaccine expert, but I work in a similar manufacturing field and have refillable medical device design experience.)
The empty vials will be filled before the metal closures are crimped on. These pierce able closures are not removable (eg safety, contamination, tamper evidence).
It’s a manufacturing process which has been designed with efficiency in mind and will have been optimised to death. To design a new circular process is incredibly difficult!
On the face of it the Home Secretary's pronouncement today appears to be a step in the right direction as there is a minority who don't consider that "the rules and guidance" apply to them. It does depend upon there being sufficient manpower available to follow through and that said manpower is properly briefed on the rules.
Experience suggests that we will be disappointed as Derbyshire for one example have Police Officers who don't or won't learn what the law/rules are. We also have a truculent entitled section of the populace who won't consider anyone but themselves. We also have politicians who are drunk on unfettered power as conferred by the Statutory Instrument means of enacting new law.
The whole system needs a thorough overhaul and re-writing along with civics classes for the rest of us.
@gray Proper coffee for all with tax-breaks on home espresso machines and grinders
In terms of systematic changes there is not a huge amount more to do. Close nurseries and places of worship, plus tidying up the few non-essential businesses still open.
In terms of going full police state - requiring papers/chitty for daily exercise slot, shopping etc. We have neither the IT/admin systems to support it or the numbers if police to enforce it. Not to mention the idea of policing by consent - I'm not sure police will be happy setting up and manning roadblocks all across towns and cities to check papers
Really, it does come down to public compliance. And all the considered study suggests ongoing 90% compliance. Ultimately it's all a numbers game, both lockdown/contacts and on the other side vaccinations.
Finally, and purely anecdotally, there are no more and probably fewer people out and about where I live than in the first lockdown.
In first lockdown France had papers needed for travel and in this lockdown a friend in cockermouth is volunteering to help at a vaccination centre.
It's not that it can't be done it's that people are too selfish to do it.
The biggest barrier to a tougher lock down, for example using papers to leave the house like France is our inability to enforce it. The past couple of times that I've walked into Sheffield's city center in the evening to pick up food, it's been what I can only describe as a lunatic asylum. Groups of smackheads and homeless people roaming around, people fighting and swearing in the street - it felt like a dodgey part of Turin.
There wasn't a single copper in sight.
Traffic and footfall seems down today after the telling off the public got, during the week it seemed little different to normal though.
Finally, and purely anecdotally, there are no more and probably fewer people out and about where I live than in the first lockdown
Its 25-30°C colder here than in the 1st lockdown !!!
That in itself may be a problem, are people still mixing, but this time indoors where we are many times more likely to catch/spread it
It's relatively simple, stay at home should mean that. Nurseries should be shut, all shops that aren't predominantly selling food shut, non food sections on supermarkets closed off. Need something urgent for a house repair, order online from a limited range of essentials, plumbing parts not blow up hot tubs. No exceptions for fishing, golf or bloody exercise. You can live without you ride, run, walk in the woods for a couple of months.
We are not in normal times, we are not going to be able to introduce the level of restrictions required that are fair and consequence free for all. Whilst we're worrying about people's 'mental health' many more are dying from Covid and other conditions due to the overliading of the NHS. Not going for a walk in the park (which many people rarely do normally) is not going to directly result in a suicide.
I doubt it's exercise outside thats contributing to transmission.
It was the schools being open and certain industries like construction still being open now.
Further lockdown is pointless unless schools close for all but a few pupils
On the face of it the Home Secretary’s pronouncement today appears to be a step in the right direction as there is a minority who don’t consider that “the rules and guidance” apply to them. It does depend upon there being sufficient manpower available to follow through and that said manpower is properly briefed on the rules.
Wow. You don't see it as a problem that the Home Secretary is encouraging the police to enforce guidance? It's yet another indication of how little respect this government have for the rule of law. If they wanted tougher restrictions they'd sadly have no problem getting them through parliament with the support of Labour.
Its 25-30°C colder here than in the 1st lockdown !!!
That in itself may be a problem, are people still mixing, but this time indoors where we are many times more likely to catch/spread it
That thought had crossed my mind too
Yeah the cold whether is definitely a good thing in one respect but may be bad in another
I really don't think outside exercise is contributing, and the research seems to support that.
There does seem to a general paranoia about people pushing the boundaries of the rules or breaking them. But I really think that most of us following both the letter and the spirit of the rules.
There will always be examples we can point to and the media will highlight the exception. But as I said above, and will keep saying, the it's a numbers game - you just need to get enough people following the rules.
it’s a numbers game – you just need to get enough people following the rules
This is very true, but, right now, that “enough” is much higher than it was earlier in the pandemic. More needs to be done to encourage (not force) more people to stick to the “stay at home” message, and the government is failing here, partly because they are still pushing for more people to go into the workplace and more pupils into schools than their headline messaging suggests. I appreciate that nuance in the guidelines are necessary, but people can see the efforts the government are putting into keeping workplaces and schools more open than in the Spring “lock downs”, and take away from that the idea that we don’t need to keep our distance as much as we did then… when the opposite is true.
... I guess it will all play through in the numbers during next week. Infections should have fallen and hospitalisations by the end of following week.
The mortality rate will probably rise and certainly stay hight for at least 3/4 more weeks though.
It's going to be pretty grim.
Given how virulent this new strain is, is it safe to meet a person for a walk?
So far I’ve been exercising alone but a friend has a difficult anniversary coming up and he could probably do with his mind taken off it.
I must admit I have little confidence in the Govt taken action if the number of infections don't turn. Recent history suggests, too little too late. I do think nurseries, places if worship should be closed immediately though
As you can see by my string of post I'm a bit all over the place on this. Bouncing between grim acceptance and faith in people doing the right thing
Further lockdown is pointless unless schools close for all but a few pupils
Which it has. I imagine all thats are in school now are looked after kids, ones with a protection order on, or key workers. Even today gov said any key workers who can do their job from home (ie phycologist) their kids should be home too.
It’s relatively simple, stay at home should mean that.
I really don't understand what the militant arm of singletrack (or those that only see black and white) expect people to do. Some us are are weak and not as strong as you and have gone to the pub with friends, (when allowed) or driven for exercise (when allowed), and shocker are actually social people that enjoy the company of others or even leaving our homes. /sarcasm
The empty vials will be filled before the metal closures are crimped on. These pierce able closures are not removable (eg safety, contamination, tamper evidence).
I knew someone on here would know the answer.
Which it has.
The government is pushing for schools to have more pupils back. Many heads are pushing back on this. Where there are “few” pupils is school, this is despite, not because, of what the government are trying to do currently.
Bouncing between grim acceptance and faith in people doing the right thing
Aren’t we all? This winter is going to be very grim, that is already unavoidable. But it could still be far worse, most people understand that, and are doing the right thing already. More would, if they could be persuaded that their own actions really matter right now, rather than pointing at what others are doing.
Which it has. I imagine all thats are in school now are looked after kids, ones with a protection order on, or key workers.
Its pushing 50% of primary kids at school afaik
We are pretty glad we don’t have to put our son in school at the moment. It isn’t always easy homeschooling but really don’t want COVID or the effects long covid might have and with a wife who is asthmatic and spent a week in hospital 3 years ago due to a severe asthma attack it is pretty scary seeing someone you love struggling to breath. No vectors into the house now unless we were really unlucky popping to the co-op.
Key worker definition seems woolly - some of his friends are still in school despite one parent being a builder and the other being an accountant for a care home (who is working from home). I assume they have said that they are working in a care home. My boss and I both qualify as key workers but we both prefer keeping them out of school to limit the risk.