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Theres lots of reasons to have schools open but crucially it should be safe for the staff and kids and the families of staff and kids, currently it isnt.
Mass testing in schools has been necessary for months, getting it organised and carried out shouldnt be on the schools. It certainly shouldnt be dumped on senior staff at the end of term. Much as I am firmly of the opinion all slt are (insert expletive here) they spent all summer getting ready for september and will now spend all xmas trying to sort out this shambles.
What a_a said!
My mum is a TA in a school for kids that have been kicked out of mainstream, so you can imagine how much of a toss any of the kids or parents give about Covid guidance. In a long term Tier 3 area. My mum is 62.....I try not to think about it very much if I'm honest.
Edit....Northern Ireland in a six week lockdown starting boxing day!
Northern Ireland in a six week lockdown starting boxing day!
This is the stupidity and negligence of our leaders. Things are going to be shit in two weeks time so let's make sure they are even shitter by opening the floodgates in the meantime.
To take what Kelvin and other's said... and how this is not simply part of an anti-UK education rant.
This to me is in the top 5 cock-ups of the whole CV Saga and pretty central to most of the other 4. I'll go with Kelvin to an extent about this being the biggest for the moment but for me these are all intertwined.
The other thread turned into why kids need to be in school for reasons that have nothing to do with academic education and turned into how kids need protecting from their parents.
I don't think most people really think most kids are missing much of vital in the run up to state school XMAS break and the stubborn refusal to close the buildings seems completely political.
On the other hand the consequences with XMAS approaching are getting dire. As a caller to LBS said, they and noone they know are actually following the guidelines completely. Heck, I just called my cousin in Nelson (couple of hours ago) who was saying they were considering going to a Tier 2 area for XMAS (to his son my great Nephew?? is that the correct term). FFS, he's a solicitor and I've never known him be so complacent about breaking the law!
I think this just sums up the general attitude now? For me it seems anything I do is pretty inconsequential whilst I still send the kid to school. Like many already posted, legal or not we won't visit my mum.
I'm still following all the rules I can (as I understand them) and anything else I can to stop spreading the virus. I'm terrified of going to the shop or PO and giving someone vulnerable the virus and my main and overwhelming route to me getting it is from either the kids or the OH's schools. Quite frankly I've given up thinking about trying not to catch it and only limit who I can spread it to because it seems a forgone conclusion I'll get it.
(PO today posting mums present I took off the FFP2 mask I'd been using for routing some wood and put on a surgical mask for example - I could have put a surgical mask over the vent but couldn't be bothered as I've just accepted I'll get it from the kids school or OH's school)
However... we have 1/2d left as I guess have most schools so I'm probably flogging a dead horse at this point. The damage has been done and the zero'th law comes back in so I'll just drop it for now at least until the new term when hopefully we will have better news.
Mass testing in schools has been necessary for months
I proposed the following in Early August...
Testing, Track and Trace
1. Test Healthcare Workers weekly if at one location, twice weekly for bank staff and those visiting multiple clients in the community.
2. Test school classes/years using sparse pooled samples every week with mobile testing.
3. Test teachers in the same schools weekly.
4. Test workplaces of known high risk by sparse pooled samples every week with mobile testing.
5. Test international arrivals within five days of arrival.
6. Provide mobile Track and Trace units in the community and at public transport hubs.
7. Provide work-based pooled testing materials proactively by NHSTT.
8. Provide a web-based (app?) reporting line for documentation of those in quarantine and self-quarantine.
Me (exercise induced asthmatic) and Mrs K (Lupus) have both just had a text suggesting our Vaccination is coming soon. I'm 48 and a competitive cyclist, she likely can't have it with the issue around allergies, I hope we can refuse it and it goes to a more needed couple of people than us!
The schools thing is a pickle for sure. I was at home today and my wife was teaching online as well as trying to sort countless issues (she's an assistant head).
"Have you seen you'll be doing a staggered return?" I yelled up the stairs at lunchtime. "Oh!" She replied. Where did you see that"? "Singletrack forum I think!"
I proposed the following in Early August…
Yep, I remember that.
I learnt **** all in secondary school apart from how all but two of my teachers were cockwombles, that authority figures were to be distrusted, that I could learn 2-3 years worth of information in the six months before my exams and that whilst I was shoved in the middle set for Maths that I was actually good at it.
I find myself in partial agreement with steve, even though he seems to have pissed a lot of you off. I reckon I could have forgone secondary completely and still ended up where I am today, but I was always one of those kids that did things purely for his own benefit in a bloody minded independent fashion - so maybe others wouldn't do so well with less formal schooling.
Me (exercise induced asthmatic) and Mrs K (Lupus) have both just had a text suggesting our Vaccination is coming soon. I’m 48 and a competitive cyclist, she likely can’t have it with the issue around allergies, I hope we can refuse it and it goes to a more needed couple of people than us!
So far all I heard was allergies and no mention of immunoglobulins.
I'd assumed they meant IgE which they usually mean or my mum (80) is screwed as well?
I find myself in partial agreement with steve, even though he seems to have pissed a lot of you off. I reckon I could have forgone secondary completely and still ended up where I am today.
Though that sounds like me (other than I was in the bottom set for maths) the more immediate concern is spreading the virus to vulnerable people and schools are winding up for XMAS so the damage is done.
It doesn't help matters when someone is saying teachers are grassing up students who have bruises either...sometimes a bruise is just a MTB accident.
TiReD
5. Test international arrivals within five days of arrival.
Out of interest why 5 days?
(Assuming we also closed up borders for "essential" travel only can't we test everyone on arrival?)
And sometimes Steve, a bruise is where a drunk parent is abusing their child. Teachers do an amazing job of watching over their children from my experience. They really care and have the protocols in place to alert the relevant experts when things go wrong.
Which they do.
Now I've been suckered into arguing.
I preferred this thread when we all sat in a circle and listened to the experts teaching us things.
Ranting and exclaiming 'madness' at the end of every post, doesn't really further my knowledge.
Love and hugs to you all this Christmas.
Staggered start? Mrs g secondary maths got home not been told/asked to prep online lessons for January and it takes 19 x longer to get stuff put online she will prob get email day before returning nice one Gav.. she can do it during the 5day superspread opportunity
Edit they have finished this afternoon 😁
Out of interest why 5 days?
Quarantine for 5 days (not 14) then release on a negative test due to incubation time of asymptomatic but transmission.
Given that i failed every exam i took i might as well not bothered with the last 4 years of schooling too. Extrapolate data from that tangential subset of 2 if ypu will.
The local ( to work) secondary was 1 of 2 closed in November, in the south. The school blamed the busses the kids used to bring them in from outlying areas as the school was covid secure.
Till dozens of them got covid and gave it to most of the teachers.
This is Hampshire, tier 2 and at home we are now in tier 3 as deaths doubled in a week.
I getting wobbles, had a covid nightmare where i couldnt breathe and wad in icu
On a bubble ventilation unit and fighting to catch my breath, i could hear the doctor telling nurses there was nothing else they could do as he loaded up a syringe with a viscous clear liquid from a glass vial with a silver metallic top.
At that point i woke up shaking with a racng heart beat. Actually took 15 mins or so to calm down with some 5-2 breathing techniques, lights on etc. Was like being a kid again when there weren't really monsters under the bed, now there are, but they're tiny, and I am 51.
Steve, you're probably just a natural small state libertarian socially and maybe fiscally slightly left like me? God knows why our ancestors decided to stick around here instead of getting on a boat to the States.
And sometimes Steve, a bruise is where a drunk parent is abusing their child.
But often it's not...
Now I’ve been suckered into arguing.
I preferred this thread when we all sat in a circle and listened to the experts teaching us things.
Don't then .
Love and hugs to you all this Christmas.
.. this is why I made the earlier comments. I should have let the last one slide but given we are killing people (I mean literally) IMHO we should be pretty clear why schools absolutely must stay open for the last week before XMAS hols and kids are forced to attend.
You'll excuse me if I point out on one side we have a bloke won't even admit who he fathered though cared so much as to infect his mistress and unborn child and on the other people who really care (whether misguided or not) and someone who's view of the state education system is good enough for the plebs but I can't may my nanny enough for her child to go private advised by someone who's idea of looking after his kids is bungling them in a car and driving 50 miles to test his eyesight. [sorry for the sarcastic way I'm saying it but ... ]
When they start singing from what sounds like the same hymn sheet I think that's enough to worry.
TiReD
Quarantine for 5 days (not 14) then release on a negative test due to incubation time of asymptomatic but transmission.
Ah sorry... yes that then makes complete sense like the rest.
If only there was a way to get the politicians to actually listen to the science...
edits:
As I have said before as a bystander/scientist (but not biological) ..it's a corona virus, wouldn't the default position be schools are a huge transmission pathway until conclusively proven otherwise?
As I have also said before it's like the politicians are demanding evidence against a reasonable orthodox working hypothesis and without it saying "so no proof then"
(All the way back to airborne transmission in March)
We knew all along it was a coronavirus albeit with higher serious complications and fatality.
Did you ever read the Columbia Accident Investigation Board Report?
This strikes me as having multiple parallels ..
One extract
At the MIT Engineering Systems Division symposium last year, Sheila Widnall gave an overview of her participation on the Columbia Accident Investigation Board (CAIB). One of my MITRE colleagues, C. Michael Howell, attended and wrote:
Of particular interest to me was her description of a key recurring problem at NASA: "normalizing the deviations they found". In her words, the unexpected became the expected which became the accepted. She used foam coming off the storage tank as just an illustration of a systemic problem.
Foam was not supposed to come off; the first few times it did, NASA investigated this as something
they did not understand and that should not happen. But as time went on and foam fell of without any safety problems evident, it became viewed as a post flight refurbishment issue - even though it was still not understood. When it was finally implicated in the loss of an orbiter, the initial reaction was "that's crazy; we lose foam on a lot of flights w/out any problem."
From the report, the CAIB started by focusing on the technical problems with foam adhesion, but went on to state very clearly the role it believes the NASA enterprise played in the space shuttle disaster:
In the Board’s view, NASA’s organizational culture and structure had as much to do with this accident as the External Tank foam. Organizational culture refers to the values, norms, beliefs, and practices that govern how an institution functions. At the most basic level, organizational culture defines the assumptions that employees make as they carry out their work. It is a powerful force that can persist through reorganizations and the reassignment of key personnel [CAIB Report, 2003, p.177]
http://www.caib.us/default.html
Mass testing in schools has been necessary for months,
I'm pretty sure Boris said that it was a prerequisite for schools reopening....
Cheers @rollindoughnut. I’m not suggesting schools should remain open for the minority of children that get abused / ill treated. Just saying them being open does help them.
Not sure why Steve is suggesting teachers are a grass and kids have bruises from falling off bikes. Amazingly teachers although not trained in medical forensics are often able to identify when a kid fell off their bike.
It looks a bit like Steve is just trolling.
MoreCash
I’m pretty sure Boris said that it was a prerequisite for schools reopening…
He said many things... we have more than enough PPE... we lost the email ... its a long list.
The common theme is not only have these failed to happen but they have been actively prevented from happening until it becomes like the missing Dolphins (So long and thanks for all the fish).
So far all I heard was allergies and no mention of immunoglobulins.
I’d assumed they meant IgE which they usually mean or my mum (80) is screwed as well?
In a basic sense, the way SLE works it that you can be allergic to everything until you know you're not.
It looks a bit like Steve is just trolling.
I spent 1/2d a week for 2 years with idiots with dolls who wanted me to make up stories.
I've no idea if they really thought they were doing something "good" or simply wanted to be proven correct but I'm pretty sure they were more screwed up than I was.
In a basic sense, the way SLE works it that you can be allergic to everything until you know you’re not.
From what I'd seen (admittedly just news) this was being put as a histamine (IgE) reaction (or perhaps that was the impression they left??)
At least for me my IgE is tame.. it's my IgA and IgG like to party.
oakleymuppet / singletrackmind
I agree but also we are dragging off thread for a very important topic.
I have to stop typing now... keeping kiddo awake... but can start a thread tomorrow if you want to share similar experiences and the scars it left.
but for now I'll stop typing as it's killing me doing it slowly/quietly.
wouldn’t the default position be schools are a huge transmission pathway until conclusively proven otherwise?
That was always the null hypothesis from influenza. The difference is that influenza has considerable morbidity in children, but SARS-CoV-2 does not.
But you have to control spread.
But you have to control spread.
Or you keep denying that the spread occurs in (state) schools.
You can see why this term has resulted in a lot of angry people… and, remember, this government did A LOT of work preparing the public to blame teachers (and their unions) before we even got to September. I think most people saw through it… but then it might just be that I do not know enough of the people that propaganda communication was aimed at.
Heck, I just called my cousin in Nelson (couple of hours ago) who was saying they were considering going to a Tier 2 area for XMAS (to his son my great Nephew?? is that the correct term). FFS, he’s a solicitor and I’ve never known him be so complacent about breaking the law!
Can I suggest you read the actual legislation? It might not be a sensible thing to do but it's certainly not against the law. There are absolutely no restrictions on travel inside England.
The headteacher on Newsnight right now is excellent.
Apropos some of the earlier talk, and some of the things that could have been done in relation to International travel, i have a Tale of One Friend & Two Cities.
Hong Kong vs. London
Just to provide a bit of context, and deflect some of the more obvious questions; yes, this is one persons experience. He moved to Hong Kong in the early 90's and was there way before the handover. He moved to Shanghai after '97. You can't become a Chinese citizen, like you can become a British citizen just by living here, unless you are ethnically Chinese. As a foreigner you can only legally live in China on a Work Visa. Work Visas in China are a moveable feast - it probably has little or nothing to do with how much of a donation you give to your local official - but they are always time limited. The only variable is the amount of time - there are all sorts of Ts & Cs, typically framed as being valid for x amount of years for y amount of months and z amount of renewal.
Bottom line is that all foreigners who live and work in China have to periodically leave and re-enter the country to fulfil the terms of their Visa. Most of them fly to Singapore for the weekend, have a weekend jolly, then fly back in until the next time.
This has served everyone well until now.
Are you still with me?
So in March, my friend became concerned that the impending travel ban would mean that he would contravene the terms of his Visa if he was trapped in Shanghai, so he had to get out. He took a train to Hong Kong, where he has Residency - One Country, two Systems, still, just about... - knowing that he wouldn't get back into China anytime soon.
So, arriving in Hong Kong he was-
- detained - given a C-19 test and had to wait for three hours until the result came back - negative - he was given three options that were basically £this hotel, ££this hotel, or £££this hotel, for their two-week quarantine package - then he was physically taken to £this hotel, where he sat in his room for two weeks, eating meals that were dropped outside his door, and watched TV in his box. After two weeks they took another test, he waited another three hours, and when it came back negative he was a free man.
So he went to buy his ticket to the UK.
On the plane he filled out a form with contact details.
So, arriving at London Heathrow he was-
- walking through customs, walking out of the Terminal, and taking the train home.
Australia is similar, arrive on a plane and off to a hotel for quarantine you go. In Kazakhstan you need a PCR 72 hours prior to arrival and then you are good to travel around freely.
I'm currently trying to arrange test and release, its an absolute shambles, no one has tests in stock, there have been testing areas in airports for months which are unused. Conversely, when arriving arriving in Istanbul you go through customs, get PCR test done in the airport for 25 euro, 3 hours later you have a result.
My questions are, why can't the government organise a system remotely fit for purpose and why do private PCR tests costs so much money?
*I travel for work not 8 week long ski trips
When you have an airport PCR and have to wait 3 hours, where do you go to wait? If you're herded into any kind of indoor area with others and one of them tests +, does that mean you get a - PCR and then a message telling you to self isolate because of potential contact with an infected person?
At Istanbul, you are free to walk around the airport but they are aimed at pre flight testing rather than quarantine.
Can I suggest you read the actual legislation? It might not be a sensible thing to do but it’s certainly not against the law. There are absolutely no restrictions on travel inside England.
Not quite correct your tier allows you around, no beer with chips if you are going to 2 from 3.
New Zealand plan to provide vaccines to everyone on Tokelau, Tuvalu, Samoa, Tonga, and Cook Islands.
My questions are, why can’t the government organise a system remotely fit for purpose and why do private PCR tests costs so much money?
You seem like someone unfamiliar with Boris Johnson which is pretty much the answer to both these questions.
I hope we can refuse it and it goes to a more needed couple of people than us!
Having spent nine months now wiped out with long covid, I wouldn't dismiss the opportunity for early vaccination without thinking it through fully. I know four other previously healthy, fit, active people - proper fit, not 'I run 5km twice a week' - in a similar boat. These are friend from bofore covid. Being fit and relatively young isn't much of a consolation if you can barely walk up the stairs for six months.
I wouldn’t dismiss the opportunity for early vaccination without thinking it through fully.
Very much this - it's been offered to you for a reason ahead of some others. Bear in mind that as more vulnerable people get protection from the vaccine, we will ease restrictions so more people could potentially catch it - and the complications of long Covid or just being ****ing unlucky - even if deaths among the vulnerable are very low.
The northern beaches outbreak in Sydney is growing - another 10 new locally acquired cases today (28 in total now).
They are obviously very aggressively track-and-tracing, there is almost an hourly list of venues/trains/shops with dates and times, the message being: if you were also there at these times, go and get tested
Visitors to the following venues should self isolate for 14 days even if they receive a negative result
Coast Palm Beach Cafe, Barrenjoey Rd, Palm Beach, on Sunday, December 13, 10:00am to 11:00am
Avalon Bowlo (bowling club), 4 Bowling Green Ln, Avalon Beach, on Sunday, December 13, 5:00pm to 7:00pm and Tuesday, December 15, 3:00pm to 5:00pm
Sneaky Grind Cafe, 3/48 Old Barrenjoey Rd, Avalon Beach, on Monday, December 14, 9:30am to 11:00am
Palm Beach female change rooms on Sunday, December 13, 9:00am to 9:15am
Avalon Beach RSL Club, Friday December 11, All day until closed
Bangkok Sidewalk Restaurant, 1/21-23 Old Barrenjoey Rd, Avalon Beach, on Monday, December 14, 7:00pm to 8:00pm
Barramee Thai Massage and Spa, 4/42-44 Old Barrenjoey Rd, Avalon Beach, on Monday, December 14, 2:00pm to 3:30pm
Palm Beach female change rooms on Sunday, December 13, 9:00am to 9:15am
The Avalon RSL at any time on December 11
The Penrith RSL Club on December 13 from 1:00pm to 6:00pm
The Kirribilli Club on December 14 from 12:00pm to 3:00pm
They have genotyped the virus that caused the cluster - and they recon it’s come from the US. People suspect that it might have come from flight/cabin crew, who aren’t subject to as-strict quarantine rules on arrival.
**** ing beaches are closed! Disaster!
My questions are, why can’t the government organise a system remotely fit for purpose and why do private PCR tests costs so much money?
That is a very good question
At my research institute I reckon we could process 10,000 tests a day with 3 qpcr machines, materials/reagents cost are pretty low, a few pence for primers, a few pounds for reagents, a few pounds for plasticware, analysis is run on a Windows laptop, each run takes about 2 hours. Machines themselves cost 10k+ but with annual service contract of a grand they last for years, 2 or 3 people could do it easily
The lighthouse labs which are run by Delloite have 2 of ours still though. I suspect a lot of the costs are in staffing & the logistics of sample collection & transport
The lighthouse lab salaries are pretty poor tho, especially considering the hours are 12hr shifts alternating between nights & days, works out about £28k, which for an experienced technician is on the crappy end, even for life sciences
Hence staff turnover is high & they have loads of vacancies
Ultimately trying to centralise testing led to a huge delay in getting it up & running, in the long run it's allowed us to get up to an impressive capacity, but it seems poorly run & ultimately it falls down because contact tracing is still not hitting its targets and with tests taking >24 hrs (>48 hrs for home testing) to return its not perfect, tho Tbf it has improved since September /October , personally know several people who should have been contacted but weren't & isolated themselves anyway.
Anyone remember when someone in a position of authority mentioned the phrase 'test and trace'?
Very much this – it’s been offered to you for a reason ahead of some others. Bear in mind that as more vulnerable people get protection from the vaccine, we will ease restrictions so more people could potentially catch it – and the complications of long Covid or just being **** unlucky – even if deaths among the vulnerable are very low.
Exactly. Take the vaccine.
Me (exercise induced asthmatic) and Mrs K (Lupus) have both just had a text suggesting our Vaccination is coming soon. I’m 48 and a competitive cyclist, she likely can’t have it with the issue around allergies, I hope we can refuse it and it goes to a more needed couple of people than us!
More likely it's been allocated to you and if unused will expire and be destroyed. Even if you're not at personal risk from Covid-19 by taking the vaccine you're minimising the risk to others.
People suspect that it might have come from flight/cabin crew, who aren’t subject to as-strict quarantine rules on arrival.
Not at all surprised. The decision over whether a crewmember needs to self-isolate in the UK after working with an infected colleague is taken by management, not a medical professional. Guess which direction they tend to go in when they're understaffed?