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Oh, I was quoting them as they predicted a year ago that we’d have a vaccine this year. I didn’t intend a pile on. Many people predicted/hoped very early on that we’d have vaccines in use around about now…. very few (no one here?) predicted that we’d start using them late in 2020. The BioNTech was approved and put into use in December, with the Oxford one following on soon after that, well ahead of predictions… but I was challenging the idea that a year ago no one would have predicted us vaccinating now… many did. I just quoted the very first such prediction right at the start of this thread as an example.
When people were saying there should be a vaccine this year most people (including me) presumed they were meaning late 2021 at the earliest, not January 1st! I get your point though but the general consensus was 18-24 months to get through trials etc from this time last year. To condense what normally takes 5 years or more into 8 months is still an incredible achievement. While the government may have made themselves look completely incompetent throughout the scientists and the NHS have done completely the opposite, rising to the challenge and doing their absolute best.
It’s not just down to the NHS and scientists here. The earliest vaccines were the result of funding, research, trial volunteers, production, packaging in and from…
USA, Brazil, Germany, Belgium, Holland, India, Switzerland, China, Italy … as well as both public and private bodies and companies in the UK. The very nature of these very annoying and concerning potential EU “export controls” reminds us that the UK hasn’t “stood alone” to get an early and successful vaccine rollout, it is an international effort we are benefitting from.
The over simplification that it is all down to the EU being “late” (ignoring that the first vaccine we put into use here was developed in Germany and produced in Belgium) is the meme our press want us to bite down hard on. But, as ever, there is always far more to it.
What meme? By all accounts (and taking into consideration how rich the EU is) the EU has been late and irresponsibly conservative with its vaccine approach.
I https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-coronavirus-vaccine-struggle-pfizer-biontech-astrazeneca/
Late to commit to purchase, and unwilling to join the USA and UK in a bidding war to gain a bigger share of production? Yes. Unwilling to take on the liability to ensure sooner delivery? Yes. All true. Being overcautious (governments taking on the liability to speed up approval would have been received differently in many countries with high vaccine scepticism) and unwilling to pay more (hubris about the buying power achieved by grouping together played a big part) were mistakes for sure. Slowed down by so many countries having to agree to and sign off on purchasing? For sure. Outplayed and outmanoeuvred by the UK there. Hugely. Late to fund vaccine development and production? No. European vaccine production and development is still what helped us with our early start here in the UK.
.....Trying to catch up for their mistakes by blaming vaccine producers? Yes. Playing politics to obscure their own responsibility for their problems? definitely. Mixed messages on vaccines hindering uptake? fo' sure.
So by & large the EU is still largely to blame for the situation it finds itself in.
Yes, but I think we have got ahead of ourselves in our push for speedy vaccination. Importing vaccine from countries way behind us in protecting their vulnerable is morally dubious.
Yes, but I think we have got ahead of ourselves in our push for speedy vaccination. Importing vaccine from countries way behind us in protecting their vulnerable is morally dubious.
I guess you mean the Indians. Well we didn't send gunboats up the Ganges did we? They were quite happy to sell it to us and also do their own bit of vaccine diplomacy before giving any to their own citizens. Also the COVID death rate per million was much higher in the UK than India so we needed it more than they did
Deaths appear to be levelling off slightly. However, they are at the level we were at mid june last year.
Importing vaccine from countries way behind us in protecting their vulnerable is morally dubious.
I guess you mean the Indians.
Well, India and Belgium.
Or are we still ignoring the millions of vaccine doses from the EU being put in our arms?
We should be worried about "don't call it an export ban" measures the EU are looking to put in place now. Yes they are politically motivated (well, duh). Yes they are a desperate and foolish attempt to make up for being left behind. Yes they undermine international cooperation, and will be as detrimental to EU citizens as anyone else, and so will be ultimately self defeating if used. So it's time for all our key politicians and the companies involved got their heads together, and got it sorted. A "thanks for all the vaccines, but it's not out concern" approach taken here isn't going to de-escalate a political standoff that could cost lives on all "sides".
Well, India and Belgium.
Or are we still ignoring the millions of vaccine doses from the EU being put in our arms?
Vaccines are manufactured by private companies, not nation-states or supranational blocs.
But, as ever, there is always far more to it.
For a start it’s not just our press
Dont get me wrong, we should be cooperating hand in hand with the EU as our closest friends. Well, we should really be cooperating with everyone.
Deaths appear to be levelling off slightly
All-cause mortality is finally back to reference levels. We are past the normal winter peak for deaths too. Still evidence that differential effects on deaths across the age groups. But very pleasing.
If you are talking about the daily death figures, we are still dropping 1/3 per week. The weekend figures were down 50% on last w/e, so a bit of lag in reporting washed out into a higher tuesday figure. The trend is still as it was, which is in a good direction 👍
I've been popping into this thread over the last year and find it really taxing what with all the media too. I honestly don't know how some of you guys can stay here obsessing over all the details on a daily basis for over a year!
Late to commit to purchase, and unwilling to join the USA and UK in a bidding war to gain a bigger share of production? Yes. Unwilling to take on the liability to ensure sooner delivery? Yes. All true. Being overcautious (governments taking on the liability to speed up approval would have been received differently in many countries with high vaccine scepticism) and unwilling to pay more (hubris about the buying power achieved by grouping together played a big part) were mistakes for sure. Slowed down by so many countries having to agree to and sign off on purchasing? For sure. Outplayed and outmanoeuvred by the UK there. Hugely. Late to fund vaccine development and production? No. European vaccine production and development is still what helped us with our early start here in the UK.
All those things you mentioned in which the EU has failed, is what can be summarised to "they came in late", does it paint the whole picture? No, is it a somewhat reasonable assessment? Yes, and a kind one I must say. As I said in a previous post, will they have the balls to put a ban on any exports of the vaccine to Israel?? I'd like to go over to Spain and see my family, but no, politicians across both side of the pond have managed to mess things up at the different stages. We shat on BOJO 24/7 for not learning from what was happening in other countries, but somehow, shitting on th EU for cocking up their vaccine strategy is not acceptable?
So the real learning point from the pandemic is that running down key national services, and relying on overseas global supply chains for everything leaves you very vulnerable.
Hands up who thinks the UK will learn anything?
Hands up who thinks the UK will learn anything?
*sits on hands*
This just seems like complete lunacy! I predict a roaring trade in fake passports (whether that's bits of paper or digitally on your phone) so that the idiots can get pissed all summer.
Pubs that check Covid status may be allowed to drop social distancing
Hands are most definitely staying down!
I honestly don’t know how some of you guys can stay here obsessing over all the details on a daily basis for over a year!
Busman’s holiday ;-). It’s my day job to obsess over these things. But at the same time it’s a privilege to explain what can be quite complex science to people who have every right to understand what’s behind the noisy headlines. Public health has always been very newsworthy.
As for the politics, notably the vaccine noise, this is just that, posturing noise by politicians. In another 8-12 months, production and supply of multiple vaccines will be normalised. Just give it some time. This is unprecedented speed already.
This just seems like complete lunacy! I predict a roaring trade in fake passports (whether that’s bits of paper or digitally on your phone) so that the idiots can get pissed all summer.
Pubs that check Covid status may be allowed to drop social distancing
That's only between May 17th and June 21st anyway, isn't it?
I thought the plan was to be 'back to normal' from June 22nd - no masks, no social distancing, no other restrictions (apart from not being allowed out of the UK unless we have an overseas holiday home that we need to, ahem, get ready to be let)
roach
Full Member
I’ve been popping into this thread over the last year and find it really taxing what with all the media too. I honestly don’t know how some of you guys can stay here obsessing over all the details on a daily basis for over a year!
I completely get where you are coming from. I'll be honest though, this thread has helped me through the last 12 months. It goes off topic a little at times but I'd have honestly been groping around in the dark for decent information without it.
It's shocking to think that a lot of people don't watch the news anymore and have read the papers or used FB etc for all their "information". Can you imagine?
It's terrifying to even think about.
And just look at the timescales... if things go to plan we will be back inside pubs in 54 days. Does anyone think this government can set up a water-tight 'vaccine passport' scheme in 54 days?
As for the politics, notably the vaccine noise, this is just that, posturing noise by politicians.
That noise isn’t just postering though, it is a potential ramping up of protectionism, which could have long term negative effects for us all. Bound to be a key part of discussions here.
Anyway, this report this evening was quite good:
https://twitter.com/bbcrosatkins/status/1374830047480184841?s=21
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I thought the plan was to be ‘back to normal’ from June 22nd – no masks, no social distancing, no other restrictions
I don’t think so. The plan is that at some point no earlier than June 22nd all legal controls are to be removed. You’re likely to still encounter requests to wear a mask, keep your distance, and face other restrictions at work and play. They won’t be enforced by law though.
Johnson wasn’t talking about any legal requirements as regards “passports” in the reporting I saw, he was proposing that some venues might want to ask for them as condition of entry. It might be the best way for a proprietor to encourage attendance, making the venue seem safer and putting attendees at ease.
it is a potential ramping up of protectionism
Come back in another 12 months 😉 . We've gone from zero to multiple available options in 12 months. Think what another 12 will deliver. Provided we don't see a significant antigenic shift, and I am not convinced yet, then we're catching up with seasonal and endemic pretty quickly. The world needs vaccinating. The EU arguments over who is going to be first is just noise, there are bigger challenges, but this is really just a "rush to normal". Normal comes when all are protected from serious disease and force of infection is kept low by immunity (ideally from vaccination rather than natural).
There will be a lot more caution this summer. I was looking forward to another eat out to catch covid.
Yes, but that new normal could see all vaccine producing counties holding back supplies of future vaccines, rather than them being exported to and rolled out in other counties that approve them sooner. The USA approach becoming widespread, if you like. Not something I want to see, and ultimately damaging for all… but could become politically unavoidable for the leaders of those countries.
I was looking forward to another eat out to catch covid.
It’s the summer. Eat outdoors. We didn’t eat out inside last summer, and won’t do this summer either.
The us approach hasn’t actually been that bad. They paid a huge amount to run the trials of the new vaccines via OWS. The return on that (which could have been nil) is first access to Moderna and J&J. Pfizer ran their own trial and are charging more accordingly. But then global supply will kick in. AZ isn’t yet submitted let alone approved despite being made at risk and sitting waiting. It will be.
Anyway day four post AZ injection and the body has definitively made some spike protein. Felt sick all day in a “glad I have an immune response” kind of way.
Felt sick all day in a “glad I have an immune response” kind of way.
@TiRed, so no reaction to the jab not so good then?
😬
Interested in where that quote from “a year ago” came from, anyone who estimated 5-7 day doubling was badly wrong from at least early March onwards and this is a large part of why the UK response was so disastrous.
In pubs you did have to do social distancing (quite welcome in some cases), now you can not bother if you've had the jab, but it's up to the landlord as to whether you require 'proof that you are not infectious', it's voluntary (I had absolutely no idea the pub landlords were also a public health specialists, when they choose. Are they also now part of the NHS?).
Can you prove that you are not infectious? Is this was is meant by 'health security'?
A game of soldiers, the act of sexual congress, I'm (not) out.
so no reaction to the jab not so good then?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56375307
“ Selfishly, I had hoped that having side effects meant I had an incredibly strong immune response and there has been some evidence from previous vaccines that this would be the case.
"There are examples, like pandemic flu in 2009, where stronger side effects meant a strong immune response," said Prof Pollard.
But that is not the case with the Covid vaccine, everyone is getting roughly the same protection.
"It's fascinating, even though the elderly had few side effects, they had exactly the same immune response."
The explanation comes from how the two halves of the immune system work together.
The first is called the innate response and includes that chemical fire alarm. The other half is the adaptive response which learns and then remembers how to fight an infection by designing B-cells that produce antibodies to seek out and destroy the virus, as well as T-cells which can attack any of the body's cells which have been infected.
Prof Riley said: "It's this early innate phase of the immune response that varies with age and varies amongst people and that's what determines the strength of your side effects.
"You only need a little bit of that innate response to wake up the adaptive response and get that full panoply of B-cells and T-cells that will protect you."
^
Thanks for that.
Just heard that my boss is off on indefinite sick leave for long COVID. He caught it about this time last year, had a bad time (hospitalised and ventilated) but started to come back to work last September. He seemed OK, was working normal days remotely, starting to go on long walks again.
Take care everyone.
@TiRed, so no reaction to the jab not so good then?
No evidence of that. As noted. I felt worse with the influenza vaccine. And feeling better today. I often have such a reaction when feeling a bit wuff.
Interested in where that quote from “a year ago” came from, anyone who estimated 5-7 day doubling was badly wrong from at least early March
Have to agree with that. Wish I'd looked a week earlier now, but it was the acceleration of deaths from cases that was notable. Not sure how much would have changed with a week less data.
Ignoring the obvious thing that talk of vaccine passports for pubs is presumably some kind of odd PR from the Tory party the hide something else...
Why are they talking about passports for pubs but not passports for non-essential retail? From an uneducated perspective both seem to be similar risk profile (pubs/hospitality seem lower to me maybe?).
I'm still adamant that someone in the hospitality industry has upset Johnson somehow.
Gove said it was being looked into for lots of uses, including retail. All the current noise is because Johnson was asked about pubs. I’m not expecting anything to come of it to be honest, except for holidays and festivals.
I don't often come into close proximity with drunk people with no self control in non essential retail settings. Even in Ilkeston. I thought the difference in risk would be clear.
Local pub has said they won't be asking to see vaccine passports. Partly as the owners are relatively young and their staff even younger, so won't be getting jabs or passports themselves till late on.
I don’t often come into close proximity with drunk people with no self control in non essential retail settings.
I see plenty of close proximity in retail, loads of it even now. They may not be drunk but they're not at distance.
There's an assumption that everyone who goes to pubs and restaurants gets drunk, that's patently not the case, anyone who thinks this either spends time in the wrong pubs or just doesn't go to them. The vast majority of people just want to sit with friends, have a beer and a chat, something they've not been able to do for some time.
BillMC
Full MemberIn pubs you did have to do social distancing (quite welcome in some cases), now you can not bother if you’ve had the jab, but it’s up to the landlord as to whether you require ‘proof that you are not infectious’, it’s voluntary (I had absolutely no idea the pub landlords were also a public health specialists, when they choose. Are they also now part of the NHS?).
And of course it's "voluntary" but your pub's earnings potential is massively more if you don't do the distancing. And more so in a market where some pubs are back to being a scrum and others aren't (personally I rather liked the socially distanced, book your table pub experience but then I am old)
Pushing responsibility onto civilians is a favourite scam of this government. Employment and immigration, Prevent, stuff like that. And of course it's what happens when you hack away at inspecorates, building inspections, etc. My brother works in events and the responsibility for public safety with covid is being pushed onto theatre managers not just to enforce laws but also to make decisions. Same in my sector, event risk decisions are being positioned as the job of the "local experts" ie the people whose job it is to run a school visit, but who have no real experience or skill in risk assessment and management other than the most basic/obvious.
When it goes wrong "alas" it was those nasty pubs and theatres that were breaking the rules, not the government's fault, just like when buildings burn down and it turns out the walls were made out of firelighters.
So it sounds like a terrible idea but don't assume that means they don't think it's genius.
You know, I keep telling myself that I don't know how many people have Flu in the UK hence its of no consequence to me, but I can't help worry that I can see a rise on coronavirus numbers today, even though that should mean not much with kids non-issues & vaccines...
...I'm still nervous of it in general, an potential long Covid for the kids 🙁
> fingers in ears <
At what point should we stop caring about the r number and the number of infections generally because of the number of people who have been vaccinated?
I suppose its when when deaths and hospitalizations keep falling despite increasing infection numbers?
I suppose its when when deaths and hospitalizations keep falling despite increasing infection numbers?
Pretty much, it was only ever about stopping the NHS being overwhelmed.
Obviously, we don't know if long covid will overwhelm it in the long term
It's reckoned Israel are at an r of 0.5 or 0.6.
Pretty much, it was only ever about stopping the NHS being overwhelmed.
So that looks like it's starting to happen, or at least the numbers of new infections looks like it's levelling out, but the deaths looks like they are continuing to drop. From looking at the UK stats on Google anyway.
Just read on the guardian Live feed that Novavax are refusing to sign a contract with the eu as they are suffering from raw material shortages.
Can't help but see this is a consequence of how the eu have been with az, so novavax don't want to get hammered if there are issues.
Unfortunate if that is the case for the eu.
Novavax shortage bad news for Covax as well.
Not good when they’re not getting AZ from India now either.
https://www.ft.com/content/5349389c-8313-41e0-9a67-58274e24a019
India blocks vaccine exports in blow to dozens of nations
Country’s Serum Institute biggest supplier of doses to WHO’s international Covax scheme
India, one of the world’s biggest vaccine producers, has imposed a de facto ban on jab exports as it seeks to prioritise local vaccinations amid an accelerating 2nd wave of coronavirus infections.
The Serum Institute of India, the largest manufacturer of vaccines in the world & the biggest supplier to the Covax programme, has been told to halt exports and that the measures could last as long as two to three months…
News of the controls, which are likely to also affect the shipment of at least 5m doses to the UK, came as EU leaders prepared for talks on Thursday on their own proposed export curbs. The EU, like India, is a major vaccine production hub and has already exported millions of doses while its own coronavirus vaccination programme has lagged behind.
Faced with another wave of infections, the EU & India are under domestic pressure to secure local supplies, but international public health officials have warned that export controls risk doing more damage in the long run.
Every man for themselves!
Every man for themselves!
Indeed, India has a vast population, some vaccine skepticism and another wave mounting. Anecdotally, my friends in Pune have had a bad time and see it getting worse. They're more pro vaccine then most and have suffered higher death rates.
We've got 50%+ vaccination of adults, India needs the doses more.
I suppose its when when deaths and hospitalizations keep falling despite increasing infection numbers?
Once cases no longer predict hospitalisations and deaths, we will have significant confidence of the effects vaccinal immunity has had in changing the disease course. i don't think we are quite there yet, but it will come. Provided no vaccine escape mutants arrive at our shores.
There is concern that the SA variant may escape from vaccine (but less so for natural immunity), but it is early days. The trial in SA of the Ox/AZ vaccine was not encouraging. Compared to the strain shifts in influenza, these are modest but concerning. For influenza, strain shifts can be completely new pathogen concerning.
Every man for themselves!
Used to be you couldn't call yourself a proper country without an army, a national airline and a national beer. Guess we can add vaccine development and production facilities to that list
Well, the Flags have gone up, BA just about exists and we still have Spitfire Ale...
Re raw materials shortages
I can confirm that some laboratory reagents are an absolute nightmare to get hold of at the moment, some stuff that normally ships next day is taking months to arrive.
As for AZ, I can see why they were keen to get some good PR out there, but sharing interim data by Press conference, just a few days before they had the full trial results and having to be challenged by Faucci and the NIAID,before having to revise results slightly downward wasn't the best thing.
(as a scientist the idea of releasing data at a press conference before its published always galls me, but I dont have to answer to shareholders)
The India blockade is a headache for everyone, AZ had said they'd make up their 70m dose shortfall to the EU from plants in India!
Anyone know if it would be ok to go to Forest of Dean next week? (from Bristol).
I know the rule of six kicks back in but is it ok to travel to ride? Would be just taking my son.
Travel allowed from Monday 29th so reckon you’re fine.
I’m planning to go out for the day so just hope the traffic isn’t completely mental. Haven’t been more than 2 miles from my house since October.
Yep, as of Monday i think they said stay local order ends and the message is stay local is you can. All i know is next week i shall be able to ride my mountain bike for the first time this year after riding nothing but gravel since December. I can't bloody wait!
Travel allowed from Monday 29th so reckon you’re fine.
Travel is allowed right now, so long as you have a reasonable excuse.
What are the chances of the UK offering the EU a large share of our Novovax order?
It's not like our order book is looking spartan.
Jab invite came through last night, still too young for the nhs service so taking the doctors referral, private nhs working together in parts of Birmingham, happy to get on the books before the forecasted shortage, wasn’t expecting to get it for a month yet.
The is to some extent political posturing by the French Government given their own domestic issues but it is unhelpful
Just being dicks, the reality is that one vaccine dose helps reduce infections and hospitalisation.
It would just be a pain if people had to have 3 doses this year to get longer durable immunity.
Basically the politicians should stfu and get on with vaccinating people rather than pathetic point scoring considering the potential consequences
It's alright, we can just source more from India or the USA... what's they you say? They have put in place export bans but the EU hasn't? Still... France... boo!
What are the chances of the UK offering the EU a large share of our Novovax order?
I assumed it would be re-directed to some poorer countries.
OTOH, if the AZ vaccine isn't as effective against the SA variant as we hope, and Novovax is, then it might be required in the UK.
It’s alright, we can just source more from India or the USA… what’s they you say? They have put in place export bans but the EU hasn’t? Still… France… boo!
I thought the EU was already nicking vaccines, e.g. the shipment to Australia 2-3 weeks ago? After all the threats they’ve been making India has probably decided if the EU can do it so can they. I’m not sure about the US, I believe they have been sending some doses to Mexico and Canada, though I think the situation in the US is different in that the US government has invested heavily in the vaccine development and production facilities rather than seizing batches paid for by other countries.
Although I voted remain, it’s pretty difficult to defend the EU on this one. You’ve got to have some sympathy for AZ, who have lost billions providing this vaccine at cost. The EU politicians have first slagged the vaccine off saying it is ineffective, accused AZ of breaching contract, threatened legal action and threatened to help themselves to vaccines that have been ordered by other countries.
So, there's a scare story / video going around involving the kids tests kits in that they are sterilising the swabs with ethylene oxide - a cancer causing agent. You can see it clearly marked on the boxes
Can any scientist or educated people here comment on how appropriate or damaging this is / isn't?
I’ll make it simple… boiling water can cause scolds… cleaning something with boiling water before packing it does not mean that the end product can causes scolds.
from wikipedia
Effects on humans and animals
Ethylene oxide is an alkylating agent; it has irritating, sensitizing and narcotic effects.[128] Chronic exposure to ethylene oxide is also mutagenic. The International Agency for Research on Cancer classifies ethylene oxide into group 1, meaning it is a proven carcinogen.[129][130] Ethylene oxide is classified as a class 2 carcinogen by the German MAK commission and as a class A2 carcinogen by the ACGIH. A 2003 study of 7,576 women exposed while at work in commercial sterilization facilities in the US suggests ethylene oxide is associated with breast cancer incidence.[131] A 2004 follow up study analyzing 18,235 men and women workers exposed to ethylene oxide from 1987 to 1998 concluded "There was little evidence of any excess cancer mortality for the cohort as a whole, with the exception of bone cancer based on small numbers. Positive exposure-response trends for lymphoid tumors were found for males only. Reasons for the sex specificity of this effect are not known. There was also some evidence of a positive exposure-response for breast cancer mortality."[132] An increased incidence of brain tumors and mononuclear cell leukemia was found in rats that had inhaled ethylene oxide at concentrations of 10, 33 or 100 mL/m3 (0.0100, 0.0329 or 0.0997 imp fl oz/cu ft) over a period of two years.[133] An increased incidence of peritoneal mesotheliomas was also observed in the animals exposed to concentrations of 33 and 100 mL/m3 (0.0329 and 0.0997 imp fl oz/cu ft). Results of human epidemiological studies on workers exposed to ethylene oxide differ. There is evidence from both human and animal studies that inhalation exposure to ethylene oxide can result in a wide range of carcinogenic effects.Ethylene oxide is toxic by inhalation, with a US OSHA permissible exposure limit calculated as a TWA (time weighted average) over 8 hours of 1 ppm, and a short term exposure limit (excursion limit) calculated as a TWA over 15 minutes of 5 ppm.[134] At concentrations in the air about 200 parts per million, ethylene oxide irritates mucous membranes of the nose and throat; higher contents cause damage to the trachea and bronchi, progressing into the partial collapse of the lungs. High concentrations can cause pulmonary edema and damage the cardiovascular system; the damaging effect of ethylene oxide may occur only after 72 hours after exposure.[24] The maximum content of ethylene oxide in the air according to the US standards (ACGIH) is 1.8 mg/m3 (0.00079 gr/cu ft).[135] NIOSH has determined that the Immediately Dangerous to Life and Health level (IDLH) is 800 ppm.[136]
Because the odor threshold for ethylene oxide varies between 250 and 700 ppm, the gas is already at toxic concentrations when it can be smelled. Even then, the odor of ethylene oxide is sweet, aromatic, and can easily be mistaken for the pleasant aroma of diethyl ether, a common laboratory solvent of very low toxicity. In view of these insidious warning properties, continuous electrochemical monitors are standard practice, and it is forbidden to use ethylene oxide to fumigate building interiors in the EU and some other jurisdictions.[137]
Ethylene oxide causes acute poisoning, accompanied by a variety of symptoms.[128] Central nervous system effects are frequently associated with human exposure to ethylene oxide in occupational settings. Headache, nausea, and vomiting have been reported.[clarification needed] Peripheral neuropathy, impaired hand-eye coordination and memory loss have been reported in more recent case studies of chronically-exposed workers at estimated average exposure levels as low as 3 ppm (with possible short-term peaks as high as 700 ppm).[133] The metabolism of ethylene oxide is not completely known. Data from animal studies indicate two possible pathways for the metabolism of ethylene oxide: hydrolysis to ethylene glycol and glutathione conjugation to form mercapturic acid and meththio-metabolites.
Ethylene oxide easily penetrates through ordinary clothing and footwear, causing skin irritation and dermatitis with the formation of blisters, fever and leukocytosis.[128]
Toxicity data for ethylene oxide are as follows:[134]
Eye exposure: 18 mg (0.28 gr)/6 hours (rabbit)
Oral: 72 mg/kg (0.00115 oz/lb) (rat, LD50), 1,186 mg/kg (0.01898 oz/lb) (rat, TDLo), 5,112 mg/kg (0.08179 oz/lb) (rat, TD)
Inhalation: 12,500 ppm (human, TCLo), 960 ppm/4 hours (dog, LC50) 33–50 ppm (rat or mouse, TC), 800 ppm/4 hours (rat or mouse, LC50)
Subcutaneous injection: 100 mg/kg (0.0016 oz/lb) (cat, LDLo), 292 mg/kg (0.00467 oz/lb) (mouse, TDLo) 900–2,600 mg/kg (0.014–0.042 oz/lb) (mouse, TD), 187 mg/kg (0.00299 oz/lb) (rat, LD50).
Intraperitoneal injection: 750 mg/kg (0.0120 oz/lb) (mouse, TDLo), 175 mg/kg (0.00280 oz/lb) (mouse, LD50)
Intravenous injection: 175 mg/kg (0.00280 oz/lb) (rabbit, LD50), 290 mg/kg (0.0046 oz/lb) (mouse, LD50)
The US Environmental Protection Agency (USEPA) estimated in 2016[138] that for low doses, the inhalation of ethylene oxide for a lifetime could increase an individual's lifetime cancer risk by as much as 3.0 × 10−3 per μg/m3 (without considering that early-life exposures are likely more potent). The USEPA estimated the slope of the dose-response declines at higher doses, and extra cancer risk estimates for several occupational exposure scenarios are calculated.
like most chemicals long term exposure can have issues, for a one time test I doubt theres much risk.
Well it’s twice a week for however long the kids are told to do it to be fair.
Not simple enough? Strong UV light causes burns… sterilising an item with strong UV light before packaging does not mean that item can cause burns when you open and use it.
nice long read for you
Don’t bother.
Evaluation of the Inhalation Carcinogenicity of Ethylene Oxide
Kids aren’t inhaling it.
even if they were (on an 8 hrs per day basis for 35 years ) the increase cancer risk is probably less than too many hot curries.
more here (if you go for the long read)...
Abstract
Aims: To obtain further information about the risks of cancer associated with occupational exposure to ethylene oxide.
Methods: Follow up was extended by 13 years for a cohort of 2876 men and women with definite or potential exposure to ethylene oxide in the chemical industry or in hospital sterilising units. Subjects were traced through National Health Service and social security records, and their mortality was compared with that expected from rates in the national population by the person-years method.
Results: Analysis was based on 565 deaths, of which 339 had occurred during the additional period of follow up. Mortality was close to or below expectation for all causes (565 deaths v 607.6 expected), all cancers (188 v 184.2), and for all specific categories of malignancy including stomach cancer (10 v 11 .6), breast cancer (11 v 13.2), non-Hodgkin's lymphoma (7 v 4.8), and leukaemia (5 v 4.6). All five deaths from leukaemia occurred in the subset of subjects with greatest potential for exposure to ethylene oxide, but even in this group the excess of deaths was small (2.6 expected).
Conclusions: The balance of evidence from this and other epidemiological investigations indicates that any risk of human cancer from ethylene oxide is low, particularly at the levels of occupational exposure that have occurred in Britain over recent decades. This may reflect the capacity of human cells to repair DNA damage caused by the chemical, which is a potent genotoxin and animal carcinogen.
even if they were
But they are not.
People don’t understand amounts. They need to be told that whatever you use to sanitise something, the risk is all contained at source, there is zero risk from the end product when you open it. Otherwise they’ll think they’ve found a “small truth” and spread misinformation.
occupational exposure
Indeed Klunk. People who sterilise hospital equipment are put at (very low) risk by the processes used. That is irrelevant to using these swabs at home.
Likewise, if they were using steam, they could be at risk from scalding. People using whatever has been sterilised down the chain can not exposed to any risk of scalding.
That is irrelevant to using these swaps.
yeah safer than sniffing glue.
French resident here and plenty of vaccines . I am 46 and got mine 2 weeks ago , the AZ .
My mum and dad got theirs too .
All the residents in the retirement home where I work got theirs too , the 2 PZ doses .
Good news there cchris2lou. We’re a year older than you, other half has had her first AZ now. No date for second yet. No first for me yet. Anytime before the school summer holidays is soon enough for me.
Well it’s twice a week for however long the kids are told to do it to be fair.
take a look at the label on most cleaning products in your house. Now, are you going to stop cleaning your house?
Now they are just trolling the public.