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Have heard of and reported a few different reactions to the vaccinations.
None of the people suffering from the reactions have said they regret getting the vaccine considering the alternative.
If people don't want the vaccine that is in them but if they are saying that from purely belief rather than evidence then they should expect that there may be negative consequences such as travel issues and potentially restricted access to some places.
That is on top of the fact that they will get covid at some point and there is a chance the virus could be more dangerous by that point so the outcome could be more severe by that point
By all means choose, but decisions have consequences, especially when the choice affects others rather than just yourself.
My job requires me to have vaccines and I can’t have a criminal conviction.
I am absolutely free to not have the inoculations, but that choice would force me to leave my job.
If people don’t want the vaccine that is in them but if they are saying that from purely belief rather than evidence then they should expect that there may be negative consequences such as travel issues and potentially restricted access to some places.
That is on top of the fact that they will get covid at some point and there is a chance the virus could be more dangerous by that point so the outcome could be more severe by that point
Depends on whether the situation becomes such that country-wide restrictions stay in place in order to protect people refusing a vaccination.
Both my parents were ill after the vaccine for a few days. Unfortunately my dad appeared to have contracted CV when attending his jab, talk about incredible bad luck. He was in a really bad way and I thought the last I'd see of him was him being taken away in an ambulance.
I'm glad to say he's back home with mum now and he sounds the most chipper I've heard him in years.
The vaccine in my mind is now linked to this episode, but I can rationalise it as being massively unlucky and I think that the vaccine itself may have helped stave off the worst of the virus, and my dad was only a few hours away from death when I got the emergency services to him, his stats were on the floor.
The scale of the vaccination programme and the decades of research give me ample comfort that this is safe, look at the history of the AZ Oxford vaccine, they've been looking at this for a long time.
However, I understand that people will have reservations, and we need to work with them on this, not against them. Name calling and shaming is counterproductive, it pushes the people away who most need support. This in turn leads people to find like minded individuals, and the misinformation spreads.
The numbers now vaccinated should be showing up issues now if there were any serious ones.
Feeling crap for a few days I'll readily take over the risk of long covid. I've come to cherish being fit and would be gutted to lose that.
Be excellent to each other, stop name calling and help folk out, listen to their concerns, don't scare them away.
No, they should have the courage of their convictions to share their understanding of what they have read, without fear of being instantly being ridiculed and humiliated.
The irony of that though is that the reason she got dragged into this is because i shared an opinion about those that refuse the vaccine and her opening gambit was to insult me.
So whilst I'd usually find the subsequent pile on a bit mean, not so much in this case
What i would say is I have previously challenged her to share the scientific research she has done with the rest of us and she didn't seem to want to do it then either.
CG is quite entitled to her opinion without being insulted , what she's got to realise is likewise I'm entitled to mine without her calling me names.
I had my first jab (AZ) on Thursday evening. Didn't feel too bad that evening but had a bad night's sleep and spent much of Friday feeling "rough", along the lines of a minor hangover, but by 24hrs post jab I was back to normal.
I did have slight reservations when driving over to the vaccination centre as there were reports that the AZ vaccine might cause blood clots but I went ahead anyway.
Edit: On Friday I spoke to a friend who had a mild case of Covid-19 a few months ago, he'd been confined to his bed at home for a week or so, but didn't need medical intervention. He's a fit bloke - he is one of the few to have completed a 48hr fell running challenge - but he said he took a while before he started gentle running again. It was at this point he noticed that his heart rate was going crazy, normally for a steady recovery run he'd have a HR of around 120bpm, but it was up in the 180-190 range. On a bike ride a short hill got it to 220! He thinks it could be months before it starts to improve.
I'd rather have a mild hangover than have to deal with potential heart problems.
From the data I’ve seen, the number of blood clots in vaccinated people is no different to that in the general population.
We need to be so careful with scare stories. Half the population are vaccinated. 1700 people a day due in the U.K. in normal circumstances. That means 850 people who have been vaccinated die within a few months of their jab. That’s just statistics.
But I will say this. Everyone will most likely catch SARS-CoV-2 eventually. Pray to your deity of choice that it's not the P1 variant, it appears to be going badly in Brazil with the young (teens to 40's) seriously affected.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/13/brazil-covid-coronavirus-deaths-cases-bolsonaro-lula
MCTD I have no time for the anti-vax sentiments being spouted. It's been pointed out numeous times and in numerous places that the vaccines offered have had a snag-free run at trial and testing with more volunteers than were needed. We're over 20 million doses in just on our island and so far no serious adverse reactions have been reported or discovered. When will it be enough data to please these people?
I'm at the stage where I would prefer that the asylum seekers and migrants were released into society and the vaccine averse were to take there places in the inadequate facilities that have been provided for them.
The evidence is pretty clear on the short term risks of how you get your immunity....
Through infection - Maybe 10-15M people in the UK?
Deaths - 125,000
Long Covid - said to be 10%, so 1-1.5M
Through vaccination - 23M in the UK
Deaths - 0
Long Covid - 0
No one knows long term, but I’m massively more concerned about COVID than the vaccine.
60% of hospitalised COVID survivors were found to have altered heart scans and ongoing inflammation. 30-40% of COVID patients suffer neurological symptoms. The virus has been found in the cerebrospinal fluid and can cause inflammation of the brain. Will there be an epidemic of Parkinsons/alzheimers/dementia in survivors 5/10/20 years? Nobody knows.
I’ll certainly be taking my chances with the vaccine rather than the massively higher short and long term risks of a COVID infection
That said, there’s a level of anti-anti-vax frothing on this thread which is disappointing. Somewhere is the line where you accept that no matter how much you disagree with people’s opinions, you have to step back and think about what sort of society you want to live in and whether it’s one where you force people to allow medical interventions against their will.
No one should be forced into anything.
Disparaging comments on a forum about anti-vaccine attitudes is not about forcing anyone into anything, it’s just a way of expressing sentiment.
Everyone has the right to refuse the vaccine. They are likely to receive negative comments about that decision though. Expressing differing opinions works both ways.
Administration of the Astrazeneca vaccine has been temporarily suspended by the HSE on advice from the National Immunisation Advisory Committee (NIAC) this morning.
This comes following NIAC receiving “new information” from the Norwegian Medicines Agency yesterday of four reports of “serious blood clotting events in adults after vaccination with Covid-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca”.
Seems a bit knee jerk reaction
Reading the whole article, rather than that quote, would be wise.
"The UK regulatory body, MRHA, has reviewed data following use of 11 million doses of this vaccine in the UK and also recommended no change to its use in the vaccination programme.
Took me a few moments to notice the .ie, I was getting quite confused.
Immune mediated thrombocytopenia purpura (ITP) is sadly a thing. The mechanism is unknown (I worked on eltrombopag for ITP a few years ago). Studies will have monitored platelets in Phase 2 and likely phase 3 as well (if you take blood you measure platelet count). Platelets are very short-lived and turnover fast. So one might detect changes. Hence the comments from regulatory agencies that the benefits continue to outweigh the risks.
Creating a de novo immune response against a protein does not rule out a response also generated against another protein that has a similar epitope - that’s the small section that the antibody sticks to. It is possible that some rare events may be driven my immunisation, but then we also know that coagulopathies are an issue for SARS-CoV2 as well. The scientist in me is thinking are they related to the virus? Or the immune response to the virus? (And by implication other proteins perhaps on platelets, that are also bound by antibody against spike protein?)
In any event, this is demonstration that the process of medical regulation is functioning as it should. And will continue to do so.
Some case reports from Pfizer and Moderna https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajh.26132
So :
1: it’s not unexpected
2: it’s pretty rare
3: it’s not just AZ but all vaccines so far.
Obviously the lockdown has worked helped by other factors, but are there any easy to understand Papers on the effectiveness?
I've checked it was.
Surely you can recognise the benefits of having the jab? You'll get free Windows Updates for life and much better 5G reception.
1: it’s not unexpected
2: it’s pretty rare
3: it’s not just AZ but all vaccines so far.
Indeed. Just trying to add some proper perspective. ITP is diagnosed in about 50k Americans per year. And 20 million had been vaccinated. The question is have a disproportionate number of (rare) events occurred? A large relative risk for a very rare event still makes is a very (but less) rare event. COVID infections are not rare events, hospitalisations are not rare. Even deaths, in the context of what we normally deem to be rare, is pretty common.
That is the perspective that is lost.
That article is truly terrifying.
How is the vaccination going in Brazil? I know the vaccine offers limited protection against the P1 variant.
My parents were vaccinated yesterday. Another step in the right direction, I hope.
I thought Pfizer stated it’s vaccine was effective vs the P1 Brazilian strain?
ElShalimo
Full Member
I’ve checked it was.Surely you can recognise the benefits of having the jab? You’ll get free Windows Updates for life and much better 5G reception.
I completely agree with your take on the vaccine however just baiting CG serves absolutely zero purpose on here.
I do think that calling it plandemic, then moaning about not being taken seriously because you think it's a plandemic, then stating you're not an anti-vaxxer but do refuse vaccines is frankly laughable.
We don't have to agree on everything but that is pretty silly. This isn't android Vs apple debating, it's pretty serious stuff that affects all of us so if you act like an arse you deserve to be called out on it.
I'm more than happy for anyone who disagrees with me to call me out if I am being a dick.
I’m more than happy for anyone who disagrees with me to call me out if I am being a dick.
You're being a dick. Not because I disagree with what you say, I think you are right. But there was no need to come wading in a few hours after CG has already left the thread and then had a go at her. There was just no need to try and start it again.
Okay fair point. Crap timing on my part.
^^There is a lot of frayed emotion at the moment... and that's just me.Lol
3 weeks exactly since I had my vaccine now and I'm still as cautious as hell but a part of me is also sighing with relief just a little.
You’re being a dick. Not because I disagree with what you say, I think you are right. But there was no need to come wading in a few hours after CG has already left the thread and then had a go at her. There was just no need to try and start it again.
And on that rationale what does that make her? Don’t answer that just come to a conclusion.
Pointless trying to change anti-vaxer minds though, that would need them to challenge not only one belief but question any others they might have, that’s such a huge shift that it’s easier to search for validation no matter how spurious than shift ones mind.
Good news that at least one vaccine is good against the P1 variant. The worry is that our government is working on the basis that 40 and over need to be jabbed first whereas the P1 variant is laying waste to the younger members of Brazilian society which would do <Spengler voice> bad things </ Spengler voice> to NHS bed availability if allowed out of the box here.
I’m afraid Brazil is a lesson on what happens when you have a CV Denier in charge & your inadequate health system gets overrun.
Sandwich
if allowed out of the box here.
I would say it already is, just a matter of time before it's all over the show unless the "Kent" variant proves the more dominant?
I've got little faith in t & t.
Unless TiRed can assure me otherwise I have a real fear that the Brazilian strain looks like it's the one to be worried about, especially for this autumn and winter. I really do fear that we'll open up pretty early, especially for foreign travel, our vaccinated will end up picking it up on their holidays then bringing it back here via direct or indirect channels. It will then sit around just infecting the odd few hundred and lie pretty much undetected then it'll explode on us, most likely as the schools go back in September. All I need is someone to tell me that's actively being prevented from happening and that I'm worrying over nothing. What I see though is a populace straining at the leash to get their holidays booked and get down the pub for a piss-up.
On the bright side my dad had his second vaccine injection yesterday. Bodes well for me getting my first some point in the next few months.
^^ By then we should have modified vaccines?
Then again there might be bigger fish to fry regarding variants by autumn.😐
I have a real pessimistic side of me that says by autumn Europe will be really well prepared for next winter and it will be us looking at them in envy. I hope I'm wrong and that the UK, EU and world (we really are all in this together) are ready next winter.
I’m afraid Brazil is a lesson on what happens when you have a CV Denier in charge & your inadequate health system gets overrun.
Almost thought you were talking about boris there.
uk still has more deaths per 100 thou,
worse that trump and bolsonaro is a bit depressing
Isn't in vitro different? Anyway, I'll remain ever pessimistic like poopscoop. We're all at different stages of vaccination programmes.
Kuco, reassuring to read that link there, for the moment anyway.👍
Dave28 - I was going to post similar wrt Brazil, but then I looked at their data, and it’s taking off at the moment. There numbers will be bad by the end.
^^ Populist leaders have blood on their hands.
I hope that it will be one more mail in their collective coffins when the world looks back at this in the near future.
Covid is a very inconvenient truth that can't be denied.
This is the neutralization data from the Pfizer vaccine published as a brief letter in the New England Journal of Medicine here https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2102017 Now what does this mean?
In the experiment they culture cells with the virus. Infected cells make a plaque. Then they do the same culture experiment but add doubling dilutions of serum from vaccinated subjects to estimate how many dilutions one can get away with before the number of formed plaques is halved from control with no serum (that is the PRNT50 - the plaque reducing neutralizing testing 50 number). The x-axis is just the strain they tested - USA-WA1/2020 is a reference from January 2020. B.1.1.7 is our own Kent hero. P1 is the Brazilian strain, P1-spike is engineered to have just the Brazilian spike in the reference strain, P1.351 is engineered to have the additional South African mutations. And the D614G is a further engineered version with the extra transmissibility. These were made in house from the reference US strain.
Basically serum from people who've had the Pfizer mRNA vaccine look to be able to neutralize the Brazil strain and other variants as well as the 2020 first virus isolates. In vitro. In a dish. This is good news, but is not absolute confirmation that it will work. But it is likely to be very predictive. Future vaccines will be approved using this method, not large clinical efficacy trials.
[tl:dr] antibodies made in people by Pfizer vaccine hit the Brazil strain the same as the original US strain when grown in a dish. It will probably do the same in people. They also neutralize possible extra nasty strains as yet to be seen.
That. Is. Good. News.👍
That's TiRed.
Oh, forgot to ask TiRed...
Is there any equivalent data showing how effective AZ is against those strains?
Thanks.
B.1.1.7 is our own Kent hero.
Well, that made me laugh.
For those worried about the reported blood clotting cases in Norway this article should help put your minds at rest
Regarding the blood clots...., this is a known rare occurrence in covid infection. This could be due to either the virus or the bodies immune response to the virus. If the latter then it seems entirely possible the vaccine could cause clots. However, I’m guessing if you do suffer clots from a vaccine then I think you’d likely get them with a covid infection anyway, along with all the other undesirable symptoms, so if we assume everyone will get exposed to either covid or the vaccine then the blood clot risk is not something you can dodge by not having the vaccine.
I just don't get the reason everyone is halting use of the az vaccine. 40 cases of something that may happen anyway in many million doses, with no deaths.
I could understand if they had an alternative (appreciate they have other vaccines but they need every dose they can get hands on) or there wasnt a deadly virus going round, but they don't and we do
I wonder how many folks will die due to not getting the vaccine compared to how many may die from clots. Seems madness.
I wonder how many folks will die due to not getting the vaccine compared to how many may die from clots. Seems madness.
That's the bit I don't get either, use us as guinea pigs for christ sakes. 24.5m people jabbed yet no issues.
It's as if they have this bias towards the UK made vaccine. 🤔
The study in blood clots TiRed linked yesterday was in Pfizer anyhow!!! Just halting AZ makes no sense. In fact halting any vaccination over this makes no sense, but 🤷🏻
surprised the anti-vaxxers aren't all over this?
Pfizer and Moderna. As I said, medicines are approved based on benefit-risk. It is often much easier to establish benefit (except perhaps in Oncology). Vaccines by necessity will impact the immune system. There is evidence that reduced platelets has been reported as a side effect - in multiple vaccines. Platelets normally recover quickly as it is a very regulated biological system that is always monitored closely in any clinical trial (along with absolute neutrophil count).
No data on AZ/Ox vaccine against P1. Some in vitro data against B.1.1.7 and B.1.351 here (in hamsters) https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.03.11.435000v1 . I like the hamster model btw.
Remember that there is not a lot of AZ/OX sera out there yet (outside of UK). Nothing on the Stanford summary site yet
I'm a risk adverse individual but would get jabbed tomorrow if I could. Statistically, I'd be about 100 times more likely to get run over cycling to the vaccination hub than to get a clot from the jab itself.
I just don’t get the reason everyone is halting use of the az vaccine
Without getting into the whole cultural differences thing again, some societies are just a bit more "anti-vax" than others. Maybe their governments are happy to suspend temporarily rather than impact the long-term goal of almost complete vaccination.
Indeed. Being over cautious in some countries could result in greater uptake longer term. The end goal is as few deaths and as little long term health impact from the virus as possible. It's just that in the UK we've happily had that reframed as meaning vaccinate as many people as quickly as possible.
Getting vaccinated tomorrow as they've now moved onto the over 40s here, having worked on government projects in the past I'm quite impressed at the speed of things.
So it looks like I was right to question whether six months of testing was enough to pick up all the side effects of the vaccine.
I’d say the half-time scoreline is Logic 1 Science 0.
I’m afraid you may be misunderstanding the situation.
chrispo, all vaccines have potential side effects. Science is well aware of that.
So it looks like I was right to question whether six months of testing was enough to pick up all the side effects of the vaccine.
I’d say the half-time scoreline is Logic 1 Science 0.
How many people have not died due to vaccination so far? Probably thousands
How many have died so far due to the vaccination..none confirmed. Out of over 250 mil doses.
I'd say science was well ahead on this one tbh..
I’d say the half-time scoreline is Logic 1 Science 0.
Err... how do you separate logic and science?
Anyway, I still can't find anything in any of the data that suggests the vaccinated experience an increased occurrence of clots. Either in the trials or public rollouts. In any country. Am I missing something? I'll stick with the temporary stalling in use as "over cautious"... which doesn't mean they are wrong of course. You've got to reassure the public that every precaution is being taken.
I’d say the half-time scoreline is Logic 1 Science 0.
Science is by definition, the same as logic in this context. So either science is incorrect, or the logic is (both are possibilities).
I'm curious to know exactly how many months of testing is what you deem to be the minimum acceptable amount, based on vaccines you have had previously in your life.
All treatments have benefits and risks. But for some, there is eventually no treatment. This paper on three lung transplantations is fascinating. Figure 1c shows in situ a pre- and post-transplantation lung (not for the squeamish and I won't link to it). Those lungs look rather worse than the control hamster lungs in the paper testing the Oxford vaccine I linked to earlier. For severe COVID, the effects on the CV system appear dramatic.
The likely very rare thrombocytopenia is a short-term monitorable adverse event that responds well to treatment, if detected. A dataset of 21M is enormous. Think how many events of any kind will happen within the next two weeks? (about the right time for a causal relationship to manifest).
So it looks like I was right to question whether six months of testing was enough to pick up all the side effects of the vaccine.
Not just you. The regulators and the companies will be doing the same. Every day. With every report of adverse events. As I said, understanding benefit-risk is essential and never stops.
So it looks like I was right to question whether six months of testing was enough to pick up all the side effects of the vaccine.
I’d say the half-time scoreline is Logic 1 Science 0.
There is no medicine, tablet or injection that is 100% safe. Not one. Everything carries a risk of complications in a small minority if patients no matter how long you test for. All we can do is make sure the vast majority of people will suffer no or very minor side effects from the vaccines. That has been done and the fact that so many have been injected safely is amazing given the timescales involved and the pressure the scientific community has been put under.
What you are saying with that post I've quoted is that we should stop all vaccinations until the people who have already been injected are studied for years? How the hell is that going to work? The risks of someone dying from a blood clot or any other side effect of the vaccine is well, well below the 1/1,000,000 mark. That would be a maximum of 60 of the whole of the UK per year. When you balance that against the death rate of over 1000 a week from Covid19 without the vaccine the the choice is a very easy one. You spreading the 'information' that the vaccine is dangerous when it plainly isn't puts you in the same group as the anti-vaxxers and conspiracy nutjobs like Lawrence Fox.
"This thread is a bit waffley. Basically as I said on the TV if you vaccinate tens of millions of people some of them will get a promotion or fall in love or crash their cars immediately afterwards. That doesn’t mean the vaccine is responsible."
https://twitter.com/xandvt/status/1371433658352070658?s=20
Statistically, You'd need to vaccinate approx 5 mil folks for one of these clotting incidents to occur
Has there ever in the history of vaccinaction trials been one that involved 5m participants? If not then there is no guarantee this would have been picked up no matter over how long they spread out the trial process.
It just doesn’t make sense to me, why these countries are stalling their use of the AZ vaccine but am slightly worried about the effect it will have on our great ‘unwashed’ population psyche.
It's a mix of politics, hesitancy, behavioural science and playing to their own crowd.
Well done Dr Xand!
It’s as if they have this bias towards the UK made vaccine
And this is surfacing on FB as some quite nasty sounding Brexity xenophobia. Currently trying to explain this to a good mate.
I reckon I'd happily drive to Ireland right now to take one of those unwanted vaccines if I was allowed! I'm sure I wouldn't name alone.
AZ has a manufacturing plant in Belgium.
And their vaccine will be produced at scale in Germany (Dessau).
AZ has wisely partnered with different producers all over the world.
My understanding is that this isn't basic pharmacovigilance that has spotted an increased trend in clotting incidents, but a small number of unusual cases in Norway in terms of age and type of clot.
WRT these clots, people who haven’t left the house for months suddenly getting mobile sounds like a DVT risk to me too.
They aren't DVT incidents, it's clots on the brain and low palette counts in young patients etc - according to a doctor from the Irish National Immunization Advisory Committee. That sounds like disseminated intravascular coagulation.
Here is what the Norwegians are saying
Germany being urged for another full national lockdown I see. I know Eastern Europe is taking a battering, too. Another few hard months ahead. It's what I fear will happen here in a month or two.
That Norwegian press release up there refers to blood clots and brain haemorrhages as if they are the same type of problem. But they are of course polar opposites, one caused by too few platelets, the other by too many. 🤷🏼♂️
STColin - That’s the whole point of vaccination surely?
Doc R - that was my immediate reaction too.
Germany being urged for another full national lockdown I see. I know Eastern Europe is taking a battering, too. Another few hard months ahead. It’s what I fear will happen here in a month or two.
We are so far ahead of Europe with vaccination that its important to keep that in mind as well though.
Very much depends how the pace of vaccination continues versus the impact of unlocking. I'm cautiously optimistic based on TiReds and others updates. The vaccine reduces severity of, not necessarily actual numbers of, infection, remember.
Though anyone still thinking of travelling abroad considering how far behind Europe is needs to maybe be prepared to rethink nearer the time. Just because governments say you can doesn't mean that you should.
Germany being urged for another full national lockdown I see. I know Eastern Europe is taking a battering, too. Another few hard months ahead. It’s what I fear will happen here in a month or two.
interestinglly, germany has had a rising number of cases for pretty much a month now. Their deathrate has been steadily declining for a month and a half.
That Norwegian press release up there refers to blood clots and brain haemorrhages as if they are the same type of problem. But they are of course polar opposites, one caused by too few platelets, the other by too many
I'm probably wrong here as I'm just a biologist, but in DIC don't you have disseminated clotting followed by bleeding as clotting factors and platelets are used up?
Either way, I'm going to stick my head above the parapet and say that the French and German medicines authorities aren't idiots.
Yep could be dic. No one knows what the problem is or if there even is one. Hope it doesn’t affect uptake too much. I had three DNA’s in my 72 patient vaccination session on Friday afternoon and lots of questions I couldn’t answer.
A bit of clarity would be helpful!