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The Coronavirus Discussion Thread.

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Agree with Daz right there


 
Posted : 30/01/2021 5:36 pm
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Does anyone know if other countries/territories are building new manufacturing centres for vaccines like the vmic?
Just interested as this seems to be a sensible long term investment.

VMIC was conceived quite a few years ago as UK didnt have a specialist vaccine institute in the way we have for other life sciences, modeled after French Pasteur & Paul Ehrlich institute in Germany, was due to be finished in 2024, but they're planning to open it sooner now


 
Posted : 30/01/2021 6:00 pm
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All that matters is that the EU thought it could cut corners in timescales and funding in setting up it’s supply chains on the assumption that someone else would be able to supply them.

Not entirely true

German government invested heavy in Biontech few years ago as did EIB, and EIB put up a further £100m for the vaccine in June,

UK has benefited greatly from that as well as delivery of early AZ vaccines from EU facilities

So you can see why it smarts

Not that VDL hasnt been a complete dick in the last week and blown up a lot of credibility


 
Posted : 30/01/2021 6:13 pm
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Dazh is absolutely spot on in his assessment of the situation IMO


 
Posted : 30/01/2021 6:16 pm
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Agree with dazh
Am just hoping we can get everything up to speed fast both in the UK and other supply chains to make sure both the UK and others can benefit (eu risk groups and the rest of the world)


 
Posted : 30/01/2021 6:27 pm
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UK has benefited greatly from that as well as delivery of early AZ vaccines from EU facilities

So you can see why it smarts

As AZ said, they have a complex supply chain. That whole supply chain would have been 3-months behind what it is now without the (earlier) UK funding and orders anyway. It isn't a tap that the EU can simply turn on.

As has been said, vaccine production isn't easy especially the first batches from new plant/supply chain. The EU can have no business being shocked by AZ having trouble delivering their initial batches from new supply chains.


 
Posted : 30/01/2021 6:31 pm
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The EU came in late, with a light wallet, and now implicitly demand that the UK absorb their risk by giving up some UK bound production. It’s an outrageous proposition!

I mean it's almost like the British "empire" spent years doing that. The attitude some people and the wider media are taking reeks of our colonial past and it's pretty sad. The truth is we could jabs the whole country 10 times over but if that means the rest of the world misses out we will still be shut off from the rest of the world and our economy will struggle. The world as a whole needs to overcome this.

If this pandemic has taught us anything it's that perhaps we should just be a little nicer to eachother.


 
Posted : 30/01/2021 7:13 pm
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UK has benefited greatly from that as well as delivery of early AZ vaccines from EU facilities

This was also my point about the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine. And it wasn’t to justify the EU approach or involvement, it was to counter those saying “if we make it here, and our government invested in it, we should keep it all to ourselves”… if other countries had done the same, we would not have been vaccinating early. Beware trying to present the development and production of vaccines as an over simplistic national effort and national resource. The politics of that can only stand in the way of the international efforts to get this epidemic done with.


 
Posted : 30/01/2021 7:14 pm
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@TiRed, thanks for the post regarding Herd Protection vs Herd Immunity. A small change in phrase but very different in nature but not so different in outcome.

I think.👍


 
Posted : 30/01/2021 7:21 pm
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I mean it’s almost like the British “empire” spent years doing that. The attitude some people and the wider media are taking reeks of our colonial past and it’s pretty sad. The truth is we could jabs the whole country 10 times over but if that means the rest of the world misses out we will still be shut off from the rest of the world and our economy will struggle. The world as a whole needs to overcome this.

I see your point but the ethical question is different from the contractual question. Note that the EU is arguing on the grounds of the latter not the former.


 
Posted : 30/01/2021 7:30 pm
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Legally I’m assuming, like most people, that they don’t have anything… it’s political pressure they are trying, hence all the unseemly noise. They have the means to turn those political screws if they’re backed further into a corner though. Very pleased that our major UK politicians haven’t said or done anything towards that ends though… cool heads so far.

The UK press however…


 
Posted : 30/01/2021 7:40 pm
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Strong-arming AZ and implicitly strong-arming the UK doesn't seem a particularly productive strategy given that there is no evidence AZ can 'do better' or is committing fraud, and supply chains today are global and complex. Protectionism tends to result in others following suit in a tit for tat. The EU would be better off - instrumentally speaking - by doing everything it can to facilitate the likes of AZ.

I think it's just a face-saving operation through deflection.


 
Posted : 30/01/2021 7:58 pm
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I must admit, nice that zahawi etc have stopped tweeting out the nationalist vaccine stuff for a few days!

It looks like they might even meet the vaccine target by mid Feb too!

As for EU, be interesting to see what happens next, VDL took personal charge of vaccine situation this week & we've seen how that panned out! (2/3rd parliament vote required to oust her-I could see that happening, especially as Merkel never wanted her)
By all accounts a lot of senior EU figures were blindsided by her moves as well

Will they be tempted to try for Russia or China vaccine? Beijing would love the PR coup, tho China have over promised on theirs already


 
Posted : 30/01/2021 8:00 pm
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Legally I’m assuming, like most people, that they don’t have anything

True for most things. Governments are not the operators. That falls to companies. Governments may apply regulation, but ultimately, it is the private sector that delivers.

https://vk.ovg.ox.ac.uk/vk/herd-immunity I view "herd protection" as an individual-based activity, basically protect ME from bad stuff by injecting ME. Herd immunity may come because people have sterile protection from infection. I think achieving up to 80% sterile protection is a non-started. We have seen reinfections already over a relatively short period. Albeit with much-reduced pathogenicity (yay!). But Smallpox-style eradication? Zero Covid? I am sorry but this will be a step too far.

It works for chickens. We can learn a lot a from animal coronaviruses.

Although 100% of chickens may be protected (against clinical signs and loss of ciliary activity in trachea), sometimes 10% of vaccinated chicks may not respond with a protective immune response. Protection is short lived, the start of the decline being apparent 9 weeks after vaccination with vaccines based on highly attenuated strains

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7154303/


 
Posted : 30/01/2021 8:02 pm
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Very pleased that our major UK politicians haven’t said or done anything towards that ends though… cool heads so far.

The UK press however…

I've also been pleasantly surprised that our politicians are slightly less jingoistic than the Press - or they are letting the Press just do it for them


 
Posted : 30/01/2021 8:32 pm
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I’ve also been pleasantly surprised that our politicians are slightly less jingoistic than the Press – or they are letting the Press just do it for them

Saying nothing implies that the EU's conflict is purely a contractual one with AZ.

It's a smart move.


 
Posted : 30/01/2021 8:55 pm
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It is a smart move. Credit where credit is due. I’m very impressed with their responses so far. But then, they don’t have to play the “war with Europe” card when the papers do it for them.


 
Posted : 30/01/2021 9:04 pm
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I’ve just returned from Heathrow, where I completed my Coronavirus Vaccinator training.

Radisson hotels donated their conference centre for free to St John Ambulance, including bottled water and coffee on tap. The vaccination training programme is also being “sponsored” by Deliveroo, who arrived with free pizzas for all at lunchtime 😎

As soon as my admin is sorted I will be booking my vaccinator shifts. It feels good to be doing something positive to end this.


 
Posted : 30/01/2021 9:06 pm
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The vaccination training programme is also being “sponsored” by Deliveroo, who arrived with free pizzas for all at lunchtime.

Just be grateful it wasn't UberEats as the Pizzas would have been delivered to Stansted or Gatwick if our experiences are anything to go by!


 
Posted : 30/01/2021 9:27 pm
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Nice one danstw13.


 
Posted : 30/01/2021 9:41 pm
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@dantsw13
Were you already trained up on medical matters and doing vaccinations?


 
Posted : 30/01/2021 9:48 pm
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Nope. I’m an airline captain, responded to the NHS programme for volunteers. There were 75 of us at Heathrow today - all sorts of backgrounds and jobs.


 
Posted : 30/01/2021 10:00 pm
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Same, i.e., not a doctor or nurse. But it's been 25 days now. Still, I'm stacking supermarket shelves for some money 😀

I love planes BTW. Just can't fly them outside of sims 😀


 
Posted : 30/01/2021 10:08 pm
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I can, but just none to fly at the moment!

From my experience and that of colleagues, admin has slowed to snail pace in recent weeks as the programme has spooled up.


 
Posted : 30/01/2021 10:15 pm
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dantsw13- huge thumbs up 👌 for what you're trying to do.
Reverting to the EU invocation/revocation of Article 16; in the context of vaccine supply it doesn't reflect well on them but, I think, there is a clear message to the UK - there is legal redress available and we're willing to use it.
That, to me, should resonate with johnson - this time, right may be on your side; next time?; don't overplay your hand.


 
Posted : 31/01/2021 12:13 am
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Yes, there’s no doubt we are now an outsider with little power to wield.

I’m not quite sure on my stance over this vaccine nationalism. Both the EU and U.K. are being selfish and inward looking. I find it all quite distasteful.


 
Posted : 31/01/2021 12:20 am
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Both the EU and U.K. are being selfish and inward looking.

Have the EU even asked the UK to voluntarily divert some of their vaccines?


 
Posted : 31/01/2021 12:30 am
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Both the EU and U.K. are being selfish and inward looking.

Whilst I have little sympathy for the EU, I have a great deal of sympathy for those poorer nations who see us squabbling over our vaccines, yet have none themselves, with probably little chance of getting any for the forseable.

Whilst we will hopefully have far more vaccine in the UK than we'll ever need, and i hope we give the rest away to those poorer nations, what we really need to be doing is funding other countries so they can make their own vaccines. This virus ain't going away any time soon.


 
Posted : 31/01/2021 12:45 am
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Well done danstw13 I hope you get a dose of vaccine as well as a free pizza.

I’m not quite sure on my stance over this vaccine nationalism. Both the EU and U.K. are being selfish and inward looking. I find it all quite distasteful.

I'm sure being an aircraft captain you understand in an emergency the need to put your own oxygen mask on before you help anyone else with theirs. There will be plenty of vaccine for everyone by the end of the year.


 
Posted : 31/01/2021 2:06 am
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The EU signed up to COVAX in the July & UK did in September, this is to distribute vaccine to poorer countries

Although actual goal when created was to distribute vaccine equally to all countries, irrespective of wealth


 
Posted : 31/01/2021 2:57 am
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Well done @danstw13. Not your normal trip to LHR, I am sure. But playing a part, however small, will get you back in the cockpit sooner. I am in no doubt. Just bought MS Flight Simulator for Son2 as part of his course. Hopefully travel will be loosened by August/September as be moves to Spain to continue his training.


 
Posted : 31/01/2021 10:34 am
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Fingers crossed for him TiRed🤞🏻🤞🏻 Hopefully one day I’ll fly with him.

Uponthedowns - I see the situation more as only putting out the fire in First Class due to lack of extinguishers, leaving economy passengers to burn. Sadly the fire down there will still destroy the aircraft.

We aren’t out of this until the world is out of it. I’m glad the UK is playing a prominent role in COVAX. Hopefully now the simpler to make/distribute vaccines are arriving we will start to see them wheeled out everywhere.


 
Posted : 31/01/2021 10:51 am
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If the provision of national government services depended on the 3rd world being supplied equally, we would be bankrupted and ruined tomorrow.


 
Posted : 31/01/2021 12:23 pm
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The EU has embarrassed themselves in front of a world audience, much like the UK has been doing for the last few years. The RW press is having a field day with it and will likely gorge themselves on it for the next week or two, then the multifaceted negative impacts of Brexit will come to dominate peoples minds, (if not the headlines.) the RW press will just ignore the facts and pad out the column inches with more opinion pieces.

Government figures have toned down the nationalism on this one. It could be because it is such an easy win for them but over these last few weeks I have noticed a slight disconnect between the Government and their Stooges in the RW press. The press is still fighting the Brexit battle whilst you can see the tories begining to reset themselves in the light of a changing world order now that Trump is no longer in charge.


 
Posted : 31/01/2021 3:15 pm
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This my be a daft question, once most of the population in the at risk categories have been vaccinated, does it matter if there are still a high number of people testing positive for covid if there are low rates of hospitalization


 
Posted : 31/01/2021 3:23 pm
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I’m sure being an aircraft captain you understand in an emergency the need to put your own oxygen mask on before you help anyone else with theirs.

More like insisting you help your family and friends with their masks even though they don't particularly need it, while the hypoxic people in the other seats can go and swivel.

Or by Dantsw13's analogy, using one extinguisher in First class to put out that fire, but then emptying the others onto it anyway.


 
Posted : 31/01/2021 3:24 pm
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This my be a daft question, once most of the population in the at risk categories have been vaccinated, does it matter if there are still a high number of people testing positive for covid if there are low rates of hospitalization

Have you heard of long covid?.


 
Posted : 31/01/2021 3:42 pm
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Have you heard of long covid?.

Having lost months to a virus in the past that is probably the greatest concern for my personal health. But many people are barely respecting the rules when there are over a thousand deaths per day, good luck getting compliance when that's 50 deaths but 200 long covid cases.

I'm guessing there's still no data on the effect of vaccination on long covid? Logically if the vaccine reduces the severity of illness it should have an impact on the incidence of long covid too?


 
Posted : 31/01/2021 4:16 pm
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More than 500,000 vaccinations in a day for the first time. Could break 600,000 if Scotland and NI have performed well.


 
Posted : 31/01/2021 4:28 pm
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More like insisting you help your family and friends with their masks even though they don’t particularly need it, while the hypoxic people in the other seats can go and swivel.

Or by Dantsw13’s analogy, using one extinguisher in First class to put out that fire, but then emptying the others onto it anyway

Well according to any stat you care to use be it COVID infections per million, excess deaths etc most of the fire and depressurization is in first class and business class.


 
Posted : 31/01/2021 4:30 pm
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Well, MrsMD and myself just got back from having our frst vaccinations (AstraZeneca) at the Lakeside Country Club.

Obviously too early to gauge and effects but so far so good.

The whole process was very well managed/organised - from the car parking, booking in and actually giving the vaccination. The people running it were efficient, helpful and friendly. In fact,just plain nice.   A big thank you to all of them.


 
Posted : 31/01/2021 4:33 pm
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More than 500,000 vaccinations in a day for the first time.

It's impressive stuff. My MIL gets done today. 🙂

I hope they have enough vaccine coming to keep the momentum going after the first four groups.

Well, MrsMD and myself just got back from having our frst vaccinations (AstraZeneca) at the Lakeside Country Club.


 
Posted : 31/01/2021 4:33 pm
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I hope they have enough vaccine coming to keep the momentum going after the first four groups.

Of course they do, they have the EU's 75mil doses.


 
Posted : 31/01/2021 5:00 pm
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Just had mine....got my long run in before I had it, expecting to feel a bit ill tomorrow


 
Posted : 31/01/2021 5:20 pm
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Larry lamb, if we had 75 million doses in this country do you really think they wouldn't be running round the clock and having a 12 week wait between doses?


 
Posted : 31/01/2021 5:36 pm
 Del
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This my be a daft question, once most of the population in the at risk categories have been vaccinated, does it matter if there are still a high number of people testing positive for covid if there are low rates of hospitalization

long covid concerns aside (and i very much share these!) a high number of people testing positive = a high rate of admission still. only ~ 25% of ICU beds were filled with those over 65 IIRC. if we take the brakes off too early the NHS will still be swamped.


 
Posted : 31/01/2021 5:54 pm
 Del
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impressive numbers of vaccinations being delivered now. massive thanks to all those involved.


 
Posted : 31/01/2021 5:55 pm
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if we take the brakes off too early the NHS will still be swamped

The government currently seem to understand this, even if many of their MPs do not. Fingers crossed…


 
Posted : 31/01/2021 5:56 pm
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There does seem to have been a tone change in the government since domcum got the boot.
They actually seem to be listening to advice rather than do whatever and blame everyone else.
Might just be the media perception though


 
Posted : 31/01/2021 6:04 pm
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Larry lamb, if we had 75 million doses in this country do you really think they wouldn’t be running round the clock and having a 12 week wait between doses?

Woooooooooooooooosh


 
Posted : 31/01/2021 7:01 pm
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There does seem to have been a tone change in the government since domcum got the boot.
They actually seem to be listening to advice rather than do whatever and blame everyone else.

I'll agree the first sentence, less certain of the second. I think that they now understand that they are responsible for making the same mistakes again that have led to the second wave, if they **** it up completely for another wave they have probably realised that their heads may end up on spikes.


 
Posted : 31/01/2021 7:48 pm
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Had mine yesterday (Oxford Astra) after my wife phoned me and said they had spares from people who hadn’t turned up. Late on Saturday afternoon so no time to be phoning people to come in so husbands and partners of the staff ( she works in a GP’s surgery ) were contacted so as not to waste them. Felt ok yesterday and have done a workout today but arm is sore to touch and I’m freezing cold and a aching legs ( the workout wasn’t too strenuous)now and can’t seem to get warm. Sure it will pass pretty quickly. For reference I’m 54y.o


 
Posted : 31/01/2021 8:01 pm
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There does seem to have been a tone change in the government since domcum got the boot.
They actually seem to be listening to advice rather than do whatever and blame everyone else.

I'm not sure about the first one - the Tees Valley Mayor seemed to be channeling the jingoism on the local politics programme this morning. The boys own Brexit adventurers have taken a bit of a kicking over the past few months - Trumpism down and potentially out, multiple Brexit problems and a pesky virus showing it's immune to ideology. Vaccination going well, Europe scoring a massive own goal the dander will be up. Prime Minister's questions will be a good indication of the true level.

Just in terms of Cummings I had been wondering if our massive over ordering of vaccines was partly his doing. The high risk high reward doctrine.

On the second Liz Truss wasn't giving me that impression on Andrew Marr. I think there is a real risk it will all be blown in a rush to re-open air travel. The WHO raises some interesting points about prioritising global vaccination over national once the most vulnerable groups are done.

There also seems to be some sense in prioritising teachers. Would it be to better to prioritise all frontline people over fifty in the next round? This hit home a bit this week - my 80 something neighbour lost their son in law this week. They were a bus driver, over fifty, 2 weeks infection to death. Meanwhile I'm sat here working from home not really in contact with anyone. There'll be people in their 60s in my situation. Although I'm going to be fairly low down the list anyway I think it would be better if some are bumped up within the next round.


 
Posted : 31/01/2021 8:48 pm
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There also seems to be some sense in prioritising teachers

There isn't. It's not an evidence-based prioritisation.

There are high-risk occupational groups but teachers don't fall into that category.


 
Posted : 31/01/2021 8:56 pm
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Almost 600000 vaccinations on Saturday is incredible and I applaud every single person involved in that effort. I hope numbers similar to that can be maintained. I was sceptical about an average of 300000 a day.

I am a teacher, and whilst I would love a vaccination, vaccinating teachers won't stop pupils spreading it to pupils and hence to other families. Reopening schools will increase community transmission. We need to have a system in place to be able to squash community transmission to safely reopen schools. We could call it a "World Beating Track and Trace system"...


 
Posted : 31/01/2021 9:13 pm
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So, if a vaccine effectively simulates an infection and gets the body producing antibodies, does that mean that anyone who has actually been infected can also be considered to be the same status as someone who was actually vaccinated?

If the above is correct, what is the total number of people who have been vaccinated combined with the total number of people who have been infected? And what is that as a percentage of the UK population?

It's got to be quite a high percentage?


 
Posted : 31/01/2021 9:27 pm
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There are high-risk occupational groups but teachers don’t fall into that category.

Is that teachers as a whole? Or teachers over fifty? It would seem sensible, if not perhaps practically possible to target higher risks within a banding. We've not really done the working population at large in the current round of priority groups.

In terms of kids out of school and damaged life chances - it sets people on a path but we don't have to force them to stay on it. I feel the Inspector Calls analogy coming on. Damage is being done now but it's how we address the aftermath that matters. The years after need to be focused on undoing the damage. I still feel social issues are a flag of convince to some, not wanting to handle the hardships now or put in the hard work later (or even the money). Very likely the same people who would like to see a severe curtailing of equal opportunities in a Brexit bonus bonfire of the regulations. Yep this is crossing the streams but the shape of the nation is what will lock in the damage.


 
Posted : 31/01/2021 9:41 pm
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I don't really follow daily covid data it stresses me out, but I checked today and also the states they are still pushing 100k daily cases. How is it that bad there still!?!


 
Posted : 31/01/2021 9:49 pm
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the states they are still pushing 100k daily cases. How is it that bad there still!?!

Because until Biden took over they were basically ruled by a Covid Denier


 
Posted : 31/01/2021 9:53 pm
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100k? It's only 3 weeks ago the UK was hitting 60k....


 
Posted : 31/01/2021 9:58 pm
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Because until Biden took over they were basically ruled by a Covid Denier

The US has ordered more vaccines and stumped up more risk money than anyone else, and all before Sleepy Joe assumed office.


 
Posted : 31/01/2021 10:01 pm
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100k? It’s only 3 weeks ago the UK was hitting 60k….

Yes, and per capita we are easily outperforming the USA (in the bad way), and in fact most of the rest of the world.

UK ~ 1500 deaths / 1M population
USA ~ 1300 deaths / 1M population

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/

Obviously there are huge differences between the USA and UK (geographically, demographically, socially etc), but I don't think we (the UK as a whole) are in a position to be critical of the way it has been handled over there, as tempting as it is.


 
Posted : 31/01/2021 10:06 pm
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The US has ordered more vaccines and stumped up more risk money than anyone else, and all before Sleepy Joe assumed office.

So Trump handled the pandemic well? Ordering vaccines was a no brainer (sorry EU) but it's hard to credit Trump with one single thing that helped the US fight Covid?

Oh, closing air borders to some countries. I think that's covered his positive input? That was totally negated by anything else he did, mind.


 
Posted : 31/01/2021 10:08 pm
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Can this be true?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/31/uk-covid-patients-are-dying-needlessly-due-to-unfounded-fears-about-ventilators

There was a scifi story many years ago The Marching Morons.
It now feels like a prediction.


 
Posted : 31/01/2021 10:50 pm
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^^ The amount of misinformed out there is huge. It stuns me. I occasionally dip my toe into FB or Twitter and always come away dispirited.

It was only recently that it dawned on me that there are millions out there that don't watch the news, Gov briefings etc and get all their "information" from social media. That explains so much.

That said, I have relied on this thread to actually hear the news behind the news. Anyone that has followed this thread will know it's a world away from getting the analysis from a chiropodist on FB though.👍


 
Posted : 31/01/2021 11:07 pm
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Remember early March last year? We knew this new wave was coming, and the UK was feeling its way through the strategy. We thought it was a serious illness that affects the lungs (only). Nightingale Hospitals were being imagined and JCB were offering to make ventilators. I even remember learning about how we could attach four patients to the same ventilator if needs be. Most people thought we’d get through this thing if only there were enough ventilators to go round.

Then we (fairly quickly) understood that covid was far more complex than that. In severe cases, people suffer multi-organ failure, laryngeal oedema, extensive thrombotic complications and if they survive their first few days on ITU, they rarely ‘bounce back’ and many have extensive fibrotic lung disease and require long ITU stays.

We also learnt that people could survive far longer without ventilation than we have seen with other conditions. Leaving someone with very low levels of oxygen is often safer than intubating them.

But of course all that is known by ITU teams, who are also massively stretched - so they don’t offer someone a ventilator bed lightly! So if you get an ITU doctor telling you that intubation is your best chance, it’s probably your only chance.

I’m sure somewhere, someone has refused ventilation for (what I would consider) daft reasons - as they do for all sorts of treatments, even life-saving ones - but I haven’t heard of it happening regularly here.


 
Posted : 31/01/2021 11:20 pm
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does that mean that anyone who has actually been infected can also be considered to be the same status as someone who was actually vaccinated?

There's been a study of NHS front line staff and yes it does seem that catching SARS-COV2 does confer immunity for a period of some months. From memory I think its 4-5 months and counting. If that's the case 3 M people in the UK have given positive tests and I reckon we can at least double that for those who had it and didn't know or had it and didn't get tested so that means we can probably add about another 6 M people to those already vaccinated who now have some immunity so we have around 15 M of the population or around one quarter vaccinated one way or another which is pretty good going.


 
Posted : 01/02/2021 12:11 am
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@superficial What a difference ten months makes. How fast science and clinical medicine has moved is breathtaking (Not quite blockbuster film speed, but close).

But the Government could be more open about vaccination. We are vaccinating those who would die. Then those most at risk of admissions, then those who are older, then those at less risk, and finally, perhaps, those at little or no risk. The sweetspot for relaxation of controls assuming coverage remains (and it is only an assumption, albeit backed up with some in vitro data already), is likely to be when those doing the transmitting (young) are meeting those protected from disease (their parents and their grandparents). It is not going to be an easy call.

I haven't done the sums, but others have tried to make predictions. For deaths and admissions to show solid vaccine-driven falls (and we are looking), I think 33-50% coverage is a good point for solid relaxation - think Tier 3. After Easter at least. I remain skeptical about transmission, and herd immunity. But this is not the most important reason for vaccination.


 
Posted : 01/02/2021 12:26 am
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@Superficial

Sobering to read.

As far as misinformation and the utter despicable nature of a few out there:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-wales-55870353

He lives about 15 minute walk from me I would think. I don't know him though, I'm glad to say.

Its not been revealed why he sent a fake explosive to a plant being readied to manufacture vaccines but I could make a reasonable guess.


 
Posted : 01/02/2021 12:33 am
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There’s been a study of NHS front line staff and yes it does seem that catching SARS-COV2 does confer immunity for a period of some months. From memory I think its 4-5 months and counting. If that’s the case 3 M people in the UK have given positive tests and I reckon we can at least double that for those who had it and didn’t know or had it and didn’t get tested so that means we can probably add about another 6 M people to those already vaccinated who now have some immunity so we have around 15 M of the population or around one quarter vaccinated one way or another which is pretty good going.

So if that is the case then having ~25% of the population immune (or at least not likely to be seriously ill) by virtue of vaccination or having had the virus previously has got to mean that very soon we should start to see a significant change (downwards) in the amount of people in hospital or dying.


 
Posted : 01/02/2021 9:34 am
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Hoping for some input here...

MrsRock is a support assistant. School commits to rapid tests on Mondays and Thursdays. Last Thursday, a TA in her class bubble tested +ve at the school test so the class and bubble was closed and she was told to isolate for 10 days as per PHE guidance. They sent them home with a couple of tests with the suggestion to keep to the test schedule. She has done one today (Monday) and it has returned -ve. So is she safe, out of the woods and unlikely to develop it?


 
Posted : 01/02/2021 9:42 am
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that very soon we should start to see a significant change (downwards) in the amount of people in hospital or dying.

Dying, certainly, I think hospitals will be brimmed for a while though.

So is she safe, out of the woods and unlikely to develop it?

Incubation can be longer than that post-exposure, and false negatives are a possibility, so keep to the isolation schedule for now.


 
Posted : 01/02/2021 9:42 am
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has got to mean that very soon we should start to see a significant change (downwards) in the amount of people in hospital or dying

We should be seeing that due to current social distancing measures anyway. Trying to work out how much the vaccinations are helping is well beyond my ken. And we need to understand that to plan reopening.


 
Posted : 01/02/2021 10:10 am
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spectator vaccine page

I know, spectator.

Some graphs about how vaccination will affect virus numbers, might be of interest.

Approx 14% of country have had a shot.

Total recorded cases are near 4m. Possibly 8m real cases. About 11%.

Don't know what the overlap between groups is.

So we could have 14% immunity, or 25% immunity.

Split the difference, call it 20%?


 
Posted : 01/02/2021 10:13 am
 DrJ
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I’m sure somewhere, someone has refused ventilation for (what I would consider) daft reasons – as they do for all sorts of treatments, even life-saving ones – but I haven’t heard of it happening regularly here.

This exact thing is the subject of an article in today's Grauniad.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/31/uk-covid-patients-are-dying-needlessly-due-to-unfounded-fears-about-ventilators


 
Posted : 01/02/2021 10:15 am
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So we could have 14% immunity, or 25% immunity.

Much lower number of people “immune”, but a good proportion of those people safe from COVID-19 hospitalisation or death.


 
Posted : 01/02/2021 10:22 am
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Even in some rich countries there seems to be a shortage of vaccines.
An elderly relative in Switzerland cannot find out anywhere how to get a vaccination.
As a resident there she is supposed to go on line and book. When the chance to book opens, it says all appointments are taken. Her Doctor can't help her and she knows of no one in her age group that have had a vaccination. I am very worried.


 
Posted : 01/02/2021 10:25 am
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There isn’t. It’s not an evidence-based prioritisation.

There are high-risk occupational groups but teachers don’t fall into that category.

This is possibly a corner case, but if a teacher gets ill and spreads it to other teachers, there's presumably a risk to a school's ability to stay open if too many have to isolate at one time.


 
Posted : 01/02/2021 11:04 am
 gray
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She has done one today (Monday) and it has returned -ve. So is she safe, out of the woods and unlikely to develop it?

Sorry, but absolutely not. The lateral flow tests are not at all reliable on an individual level, and the school should be being very clear on this. A negative result is not anywhere near a guarantee that someone isn't infected. A positive result is pretty likely to be real, but false negatives are common. These tests are great at detecting some cases that otherwise might not be detected, but they're not good enough to prove a negative.

So having a negative result is a good thing - it does increase the probability that she is actually negative, but she should absolutely still follow the isolation rules for the full duration.


 
Posted : 01/02/2021 11:11 am
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