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If those numbers are correct then we will be sending an awful lot of vaccine to the rest of the world.
I do however think that once we have vaccinated the at risk groups then we should offer to export a decent proportion of the vaccine production. My personal preference is that the export goes to developing countries though as the eu issue is going to be resolved in a few months where the developing world are not going to see much this year
If those numbers are correct then we will be sending an awful lot of vaccine to the rest of the world.
By sending you mean selling right? This gov' does nothing unless it helps them. I don't fully understand the whole eu vaccine issue but I do think rhetoric from Downing Street and press seems very anti eu and look who the baddies really are and we are better off without them. We are the ones who have purchased some 200m odd doses for a country with a population of way less than that.
Don't know, I would hope that we can give a load of them to developing countries.
We got lucky on vaccine numbers, when the majority were originally supported it was more an educated guess rather than buying a sure thing. Yeah we have more than needed ordered, but no one really knew they would all work. Its just great they do.
I actually thought the government had been staying out of it pretty well (it sticks in my throat saying that, as I hate the tories), ultimately this isn't between the UK and the EU, it is between AZ and the EU, notice they are not going after Pfizer the same or moderna despite them dropping numbers too.
That all being said I want us to make sure a fair proportion of vaccines are being shipped to where they are needed, it's just the politicians need to shut the hell up and sort it rather than spouting off (see Macrons comments about the az vaccine being almost ineffective in the over 65's as a case in point)
If we manage to get the UK vaccinated ahead of the rest of the world I’m more than happy that we stay at home and keep quarantine in place for arrivals until they manage to catch us up.
The more likely path will be: dose up, open up, run around.
And the EU slams it into reverse......
Having invoked (or threatened to invoke) Article 16, word is that they've decided that was an overreaction. One presumes that the politicians have had a word with the Commission, with Micheal Martin being particularly upset with Ursula von der Leyen.
You couldn't make it up.
From that graph it looks like we'll be producing 1 billion doses of vaccine in the UK this year. Or close to 19 million doses a week. Am I reading that correctly because i thought currently it's a tiny fraction of that?
If that's the case id be alot more confident about getting a jab before the autumn than I was.
I'm conflicted about giving our vaccines away. On one hand it's not fair we have such a high supply line, but on the flip side I'm also very mindful of my own health, my friends health, and my family members health. I'm also inclined to think, somewhat controversially perhaps, that preventing the potentially devastating effects of long covid on our younger generations is equally if not more important than preventing 90 year olds in care homes from dying.
Here a question for those in the know. We are obviously focusing on the most vunerable just now, with vaccines that are predicted to be pretty good but not great, especially in old folks.
What's the likelihood that in 6 months time, even if the az vaccine has reduced mortality, if another vaccine is proved to be more effective they basically start from scratch with the priority groups again.
Otherwise it may well end up that the last in line for the jab, ie the healthy 20 year olds, get a more effective vaccine than your 90 year old nan.
Won't we want those surplus doses to use as boosters in a year or so time?
mandog
Full Member
Won’t we want those surplus doses to use as boosters in a year or so time?
I suspect we'll have new (modified) vaccines by then to better impact the new variants that will be coming along.
Ala flu jabs.
I went to work at a different station today to cover sickness and we worked at a mass vaccine site, the lads had worked there the day before and been jabbed 2 ended up off sick and one ended up in hospital, 2 others from the other shift were also off sick due to having the vaccine, everyone else felt like crap is this a normal thing ??
Won’t we want those surplus doses to use as boosters in a year or so time?
If we are making 20 million doses a week then let's be honest after the initial mad rush dies down there will be plenty to go round.
I'm all for making sure the UK is prioritised, but sitting on any surplus would be criminal.
The more I hear from the eu the more id be inclined to not give any of it to them however. Macron can go f himself after his attitude towards brexit negotiations.
We should be giving it to countries who can't afford it, not countries who f'd up their planning and organisation.
I mean can you imagine if we came cap in hand to macron asking for French supplies if the shoe was on other foot....
everyone else felt like crap is this a normal thing ??
Yeah, seems fairly common, mainly in those who've had the virus.
I'm sure the EU was only thinking of breaking any agreement in a specific and limited way.
What’s the likelihood that in 6 months time, even if the az vaccine has reduced mortality, if another vaccine is proved to be more effective they basically start from scratch with the priority groups again.
With flu a new formula has to be cooked up every winter, depending on which strains are dominant, it's a guessing game, sometimes they get it right, sometimes they don't
Well be a similar situation with covid, I'm not aware that we help developing countries with their vaccinations but we should be
And if u want to be selfish about because in the case of covid especially, unvaccinated those countries are a pool for mutant strains to arise in (its the reason any form of vaccine nationalism is daft)
not countries who f’d up their planning and organisation
You mean, like preordering vaccines to be delivered after approval, only to be told that just 40% of the doses ordered would be heading their way?
The UK has benefitted from the international nature of vaccine development, testing and production… but all of a sudden a lot of Brits are getting very nationalistic about this. I fear we have bought into the “Oxford vaccine” spin a bit too eagerly. We weren’t shy of making good early use of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine… we’ll be happy to make good use of the Johnson&Johnson/Janssen, Moderna and Novavax vaccines as well.
@firestarter Mick, yes apparantly feeling shit after the vacine isnt uncommon. My sister felt so bad after her 2nd Pfizer jab in early January, she had to go back and be tested for coronavirus. Test came back negative.
There's also a huge amount of luck in vaccine development
UK government did a v good job of hedging their bets but if Sanofi/GSK version had worked out & AZ hadn't (Sanofi was favourite early on, trump wanted to buy it all) our positions could easily be reversed
More than luck though. The early focus on developing sites, and signing contracts, to produce at scale, whichever vaccines came good, was a sound move. The big numbers for us this summer will be USA vaccines produced on UK sites that have been made ready with months of work.
The papers are going to go nuts in a “UK versus Europe” manner over the AZ stuff though… and Brits will lap it up. Expect all the leaders of EU countries to be betrayed in a very negative light. They’ll be figurative talk of war and freedom, you can be sure of that.
You mean, like preordering vaccines to be delivered after approval, only to be told that just 40% of the doses ordered would be heading their way?
I mean like spending 3 addition months trying to negotiate the best deal and signing off on the vaccine far far later than us. They were behind the curve on this, even our hopeless government managed to get it right. And now they are trying to cover their own incompetent arses by throwing around threats. They couldn't even get the comtracts right by the looks of things.
You honestly think France would hand over their supplies to us if shoe was on the other foot? Not a chance.
The UK has benefitted from the international nature of vaccine development, testing and production… but all of a sudden a lot of Brits are getting very nationalistic about this.
Well by the looks of things we've been the ones who built the infrastructure, stumped up the cash up front for funding development. And will be the ones producing a fairly sizable proportion of the worlds supply. We've also got by far the highest death rate.
Given how the EU gave us the bare minimum in terms of a brexit deal, forgive me if I'm not feeling particularly charitable towards them right now. Maybe we should reciprocate with a token, barely acceptable number of vaccines sent their way.
@firestarter - my Missus had to miss a couple of days of work after her vaccination. Amongst her colleagues, that's been rare.
Given how the EU gave us the bare minimum in terms of a brexit deal, forgive me if I’m not feeling particularly charitable towards them right now. Maybe we should reciprocate with a token, barely acceptable number of vaccines sent their way.
The first AZ & the Pfizer vaccines we've been using are from the EU....factories in Germany & Holland!
And German government gave €millions to Biontech for development of their RNA vaccine
https://fortune.com/2020/11/09/pfizer-vaccine-funding-warp-speed-germany/
& We got the Brexit deal Johnson asked for!!!
There is no vaccine that is the result of a single country… all the vaccines are very much international. Yes, ramping up production has been done best/quickest in the UK, for sure, but this is also happening all around the world, including in Germany and Belgium. The spread of vaccines backed/purchased by the UK has also paid of… as has having the NHS to call on. But the vaccines are all international, and we shouldn’t start nationalist tub thumping about them.
I mean like spending 3 addition months trying to negotiate the best deal and signing off on the vaccine far far later than us. They were behind the curve on this, even our hopeless government managed to get it right. And now they are trying to cover their own incompetent arses by throwing around threats. They couldn’t even get the comtracts right by the looks of things.
You honestly think France would hand over their supplies to us if shoe was on the other foot? Not a chance.
A 1000 times this^
Found out they were in the placebo group.
Without wishing to undermine the double blind, maybe there's more to them wanting you to hold on...
Wait till eu bans the export of silicate vials. Or stoppers. This is petty politics. It’s debasing the efforts of all involved who are trying hard. Throwing the GFA under the vaccine bus was, however, a master stroke.
J&J data is consistent with others on protection from COVID-19. That’s encouraging. But novovax looks like the standout result so far after mRNA. I think the preclinical data is showing solid translation so far to humans. I also am less and less convinced about the effects on transmission as opposed to disease.
I also am less and less convinced about the effects on transmission as opposed to disease.
> fingers in ears <
Given how the EU gave us the bare minimum in terms of a brexit deal
That is nonsense; the UK got what it deserved based on unrealistic demands/expectations and incompetent negotiating including lack of preparation.
As for the spat about vaccine distribution, the EU could and should have placed bulk orders more quickly and - as pointed out above - the UK were lucky.
As with everything.
We can only ever run as fast as the slowest of us.
TiRed
I also am less and less convinced about the effects on transmission as opposed to disease.
So, we are all likely to catch a variant of Covid at some point, this year or over the years to come but it hopefully won't result in death/ hospitalisation?
Throwing the GFA under the vaccine bus was, however, a master stroke.
I see they have backed down on that now. Ireland wasn't too happy. Methinks the EU overplayed their hand.
As for the spat about vaccine distribution, the EU could and should have placed bulk orders more quickly and – as pointed out above – the UK were lucky.
Less luck and more a matter of moving quicker, being prudent and not being afraid to risk cash surely?
Less luck and more a matter of moving quicker, being prudent and not being afraid to risk cash surely?
The more I read the more it looks like the eu strategy was banking on there being excess capacity all over the place, hence they’d be able to pick from suppliers. This explanation fits their actions.
However the UK ended up here, I am thankful for it. Specifically and only in respect to the vaccines, not the absolute mess we made of the pandemic handling and the resultant deaths of course.
I'm very concerned that things can change really, really quickly though. After recent events, this government doesn't stay "lucky" for very long where the pandemic is concerned.
Well played/ lucky, it can all change and there is a good possibility we are going to be the ones desperate for EU help at some point. Two months from now, the coming Winter, two years from now, who knows? As TiRed says, just basic utilities for the vaccine, vials and a hundred other things I can't even begin to fathom, might need to be sourced from the EU.
So my take away is we need to be prepared to deal with an EU that really doesn't have to pander to us and might actively need to be seen to be harsh on us to keep its own population/s happy during the pandemic/ recovery. I suspect a great many people in the EU aren't that keen on the UK after the last 4 years and are NOT happy being told they are exporting vaccines to the UK potentially, whilst they struggle.
Basically, at the moment we really don't want to get too smug/ complacent as it could all change frighteningly fast.
The fact the EU went a bit Brexity on us terrifies me to be honest. We've been telling them they are ** for 4 years now and they need to keep their population/s on side just as we do. If Brexit tought the EU anything, it's that Brexit was hugely successful in so far as winning a good percentage of a given population over. It would be tempting to use some of those playlists on its own populations, particularly if they see it as being for the EU's greater good.
I don't want us to be beaten by the other end of the Brexit stick we created during a pandemic that is in all likelihood still going to be affecting our economy for years to come one way or another.
Sorry if I've gone off track a bit but I don't see the UK doing well with the pandemic long term if the EU and the rest of the world aren't either.
Tl;dr: Within months we might be looking ancient at the EU, both vaccine rollout and recovery. Let's not rub s in their face as we are doing better. At the moment. It's likely to be remembered.
Edit: Meant looking "enviously" at the EU.
Well, it's happened.
"Coronavirus: EU confirms new vaccine export controls"
Aside from some exempt countries, EU exports of vaccines have to be approved first. I don't see any way this won't effect the Pfizer rollout almost others? WHO not happy.
"In future, Pfizer would have to fill in an export form and wait up to 48 hours for their export request to be accepted or rejected by the Belgian government. That decision would be based on whether the company could prove that taking that batch of vaccine to the UK would not affect the existing EU agreement."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55860540
The UK has benefitted from the international nature of vaccine development, testing and production… but all of a sudden a lot of Brits are getting very nationalistic about this.
Totally agree with this. On the face of it the eu put an order in that they seem to feel is not fulfilled so they have every right to be annoyed. I think the other reality is since the start the only consistent plan Boris has had is a vaccine, he was never interested in a NZ style approach, track and trace was / is a disaster, and everything else has failed. He spread his bets and went full stream ahead in a vaccine being a solution and like the rest of his life got lucky.
In an ideal world distribution would be run by someone like WHO. I seem to remember they proposed every country only be allowed to buy enoubth to vaccine 20% of their population in an attempt to stop less rich nations being left for dead.
As with everything.
We can only ever run as fast as the slowest of us.
Having had my **** handed to me on numerous occasions, I can confirm this isn't true. Not with running anyway.
Well, it’s happened.
There was also a fairly dramatic reversal on the Article 16 pish.
This would be a very good time for the grown ups to finally arrive in Government.
You honestly think France would hand over their supplies to us if shoe was on the other foot? Not a chance.
Not just the UK that needs to be wary, remember this?
The desperation of the EU is nakedly obvious. They know a reckoning is coming for their lack of urgency, agility and flexibility in initial vaccine procurement.
Whatever happens now, even if they manage to squeeze a few AZ jabs out of UK facilities, they are already stuffed, because they needed the vaccines six weeks ago, not in six weeks' time. The new variants are going to rip into Europe from Iberia (Brazilian) and the north (UK variant).
So all this posturing is simply about blaming AZ and the UK for that moment.
I agree wholeheartedly that countries which produce large amounts of vaccine share it as soon as possible with less fortunate countries. I was envisaging that being in the developing world, rather than modern industrial economies in Europe.
Sadly, we now need to close the UK/EU continental border to all but essential travel because we can't afford for the Brazilian strain to get a foothold until all our vulnerable groups are vaccinated.
So, we are all likely to catch a variant of Covid at some point, this year or over the years to come but it hopefully won’t result in death/ hospitalisation?
Short answer: yes.
Long answer:
I’ve said this a few times, think of the vaccine as providing the immune history of that first infection (which may be severe) without the likelihood of any serious sequale. We are in the position we are to control the numbers of symptomatic patients closing healthcare. No other reason. The vaccines have all shown they hugely reduce hospitalisations.
Some of the vaccines may affirm sterile protection. For a while (unknown). There is, however, now data that shows;
1) infection generate antibodies in almost everyone.
2) vaccines generate similar antibodies to infections.
3) you can be reinfected after a few months of a natural infection.
4) secondary infections are less severe even asymptomatic due to retained immunity.
5) there is some neutralisation of new strains but with lower potency (titer)
6) at least one vaccine is effective against the UK strain and acceptably effective against the SA strain in subjects who do not have HIV.
Vaccinate everyone, give them some antibodies, then the risks of a COVID surge of disease is much reduced. An upside is that people now have asymptomatic infection. They may spread the infection still (unknown), but the degree of spread and the R number is likely to be reduced.
This is Herd Protection And is what we need. Herd immunity is an upside which some vaccines may generate depending on protection level (unknown as most looked for symptomatic infections). Either way SARS-CoV2 is going to become an endemic childhood disease like the other four coronaviruses.
(Tl:dr) vaccination WILL reduce deaths and burden of healthcare. They may reduce transmission but this is not a given. Nor is it absolutely necessary.
As an aside, there are 57 approved vaccines for a common chicken coronavirus. They provide Herd protection. They aren’t needed for sustained protection for males.
So, we are all likely to catch a variant of Covid at some point, this year or over the years to come but it hopefully won’t result in death/ hospitalisation?
As TiRed has repeatedly said, we will have to learn to adapt to living with the virus the same way we do with flu. It was never going to just go away.
Fair play to the UK, vaccine orders and early Nightingale capacity were the only things they got right. Everything else has cost additional lives, jobs and wasted public money.
Speak his name and he shall appear!
The new variants are going to rip into Europe from Iberia (Brazilian) and the north (UK variant).
The UK variant was detected on continent well over a month ago, but cases dont seem to have increased as rapidly there so far?
We can only ever run as fast as the slowest of us.
More a Team time trial. Pity the last three countries as the time is taken on rider number five crossing the line. Everyone will, however, finish the race and get a time. Ready for the next stage. I’ve been that rider. It’s a bit lonely at the back, but you always get a big clap when you finish!
I think the other reality is since the start the only consistent plan Boris has had is a vaccine, he was never interested in a NZ style approach, track and trace was / is a disaster, and everything else has failed. He spread his bets and went full stream ahead in a vaccine being a solution and like the rest of his life got lucky.
He is fortunate with that - my fear is it being squandered in the same way all the gains of lock down one were. The green eyes of the Covid Recovery Group will be swivelling to the other side of the planet coveting the freedoms and crowds around the Australian Open.
I think until we know how much the vaccine works in preventing infection / onward transmission we really need to make the most of being an island. It's a fair bet there will be something nastier we don't know about yet.
Sadly the EU isn't covering itself in glory.
Does anyone know if other countries/territories are building new manufacturing centres for vaccines like the vmic?
Just interested as this seems to be a sensible long term investment.
Yes.
Sahin said BioNTech aimed to get a new manufacturing facility in the German city of Marburg up and running in February, "far earlier than planned", that should then be able to churn out an additional 250 million doses in the first half of 2021.
Tureci said they had also struck deals with five pharmaceutical manufacturers in Europe to increase production, and negotiations with other specialised firms are ongoing.
"By the end of January we should have clarity on what and how much more we can produce," Sahin said.
BioNTech and Pfizer were initially aiming to deliver 1.3 billion doses worldwide this year, enough to immunise 650 million people.
For Europe-bound vaccines, Moderna this year enlisted Swiss contract drug manufacturer Lonza to make active vaccine ingredients at three new production lines in Visp, Switzerland.
The lines, costing 70 million Swiss francs ($80 million) each and due to supply a combined 300 million doses annually, are not yet producing vaccine, though the first line could become operational within days.
It seems longer term mRNA vaccines could be the best option both in terms of efficacy and speed to scale up for new emerging strains. Are the production requirements significantly different for mRNA? ie would we have capability at vmic and the other UK vaccine manufacturing locations to produce mRNA vaccines?
@kelvin thanks for the info.
It does make sense that we need to both increase and also spread out vaccine production worldwide, but then I guess we also need to make sure the raw materials (vials, stoppers even metal cap seals) also need to be available as those will stop production as quickly as anything else
mRNA vaccines have the plus that there is very little protein required compared to spike protein (after all you are the bioreactor). So per batch you get a lot of doses. But they have the complication that they have more complex processing; encapsulation in lipid then Polyethylene Glycol shell. And the colder storage to maintain stability.
These are the first two of their class to be approved. The technology is mature but previously unproven. It wasn’t originally pursued for infectious diseases. It was for cancer. Now it’s proven, it’s the Tesla disruptive technology. Effective, advanced but lacking in infrastructure (cold chain or charging points). It is a significant advance, like Tesla and it’s very exciting for future therapeutics. Like Tesla (and Renault of course) for electric cars.
RNA vaccines are very exciting, necessity has accelerated their development, hopefully there will be a feedback of the tech into other illnesses including cancer.
I'd like to think that global cooperation will increase after this, a lot of countries UK & EU have signed up to Who's Covax facility to get vaccines to poorer countries & do nate any surpluses etc
Didn't the covax agreement include a bit on once a proportion of the population in a given country were vaccinated then the vaccine would be redistributed to other countries until we are all up to that level or was I being idealistic?
Just can't see that happening sadly if it was in there
The EU were only proposing to implement the protocol in a limited and specific way so don't see what the problem was.
Meanwhile WHO is proposing countries should halt vaccination after the vulnerable and frontline workers have been vaccinated.
Good luck with that.
Yes that's what the Who were proposing
The idea of Covax originally was that countries wouldn't negotiate seperately for vaccines as that would cause disputes & inequality.....
Sadly the world's not that altruistic
And trusting the WHO to coordinate the biggest worldwide vaccine rollout in history, juggling a multitude of different pharma firms, is sadly unrealistic.
The UK variant was detected on continent well over a month ago, but cases dont seem to have increased as rapidly there so far?
Took a couple of months from first detection here (September I think) for it to be having a significant impact in caseload, so it's still seeding over there.
I think people are missing why the EU have gone public and angry… when Pfizer had to reduce supply below that promised to countries, they did two things… told all countries with orders that their supply would be reduced, including the ones producing the vaccine and funding their research, and were fully transparent about the issues, and what was being done to turn the problem around and get back to the levels agreed ASAP. AZ have taken a very different approach… if they were expecting EU countries, and the EU itself, to just shrug… rather than kick up a fuss, they were mistaken. It’s all unseemly political noise for now, but it could get very messy if companies and governments do decide to shift now to nation first approaches… which would be self defeating, ultimately.
And…
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/medicines-that-cannot-be-parallel-exported-from-the-uk
From 1st Jan, the UK’s ban on exporting short supply drugs was applied to the EU.
I think people are missing why the EU have gone public and angry…
They're angry because they have completely ballsed up their vaccine programme and are being embarrassed by the fact the UK and US are miles ahead. And now instead of admitting it and taking it on the chin, they're deflecting attention with grubby political games. Instead of making demands and flexing their muscles they should have simply asked for help, but I think we all know why they would never do that.
AZ have taken a very different approach… if they were expecting EU countries, and the EU itself, to just shrug… rather than kick up a fuss, they were mistaken
It seems very clear that AZ was quite open with the EU about the problems experienced in their Belgium plant I believe? The one's that resulted in the 60-70%? shortfall this delivery.
As has been said, it's quite reasonable to expect, and normal to see, some problems when ramping up production of these vaccines.
The UK got in early with their taskforce, put a lot of risk money up, etc., allowing AZ to get up to speed for the UK-bound production earlier.
I do see your point, but the EU isn't buying cans of coke from an established production line. To demand that all AZ vaccine production goes into a pool and is shared out pro-rata, between all buyers, for example, ignores the role these buyers have had in enabling and/or funding the AZ production capabilities in the first place. The UK, for example, took on a lot of risk early on of which the EU seem to think they themselves are entitled to beneft. This is a moral hazard and just plain wrong.
We also benefited in the UK from the early roll out of a vaccine developed in Germany, with German government funds, produced by Dutch and Belgium cooperation.
How quick we forget…
That list of medicines is a who’s who of respiratory pharmacology. Throw in some antibiotics and anti-IL6 antibodies for cytokine storm and it’s basically anything that might have some use on the impending epidemic. You can still export hydroxychloroquine.
We also benefited in the UK from the early roll out of a vaccine developed in Germany, with German government funds, produced by Dutch and Belgium cooperation.
Not sure why you keep posting this stuff, no one is denying the UK has benefitted from vaccine development in the EU. The issue around the AZ supply is a matter between the EU and AZ. It shouldn't affect anything else, and shouldn't be blown up into a UK vs EU issue which is what the EU seem to be doing.
I mentioned it because of a post saying that we should keep “our” supplies to ourselves.
This…
The UK, for example, took on a lot of risk early on of which the EU seem to think they themselves are entitled to beneft. This is a moral hazard and just plain wrong.
We benefited from the actions and investment (risk) of the Germans and other EU governments and companies. The idea that plucky old Britain took on all the work, and should keep the bounty for itself is fantasy. Easy to buy into with a quick scan of the UK papers though.
Der Spiegel's take on EU vaccine issues - https://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/europe-s-vaccine-disaster-commission-president-ursula-von-der-leyen-seeking-to-duck-responsibility-a-1197547d-6219-4438-9d69-b76e64701802
tl;dr when you put Germany's equivalent of Chris Grayling in charge you can expect to live in interesting times.
it’s basically anything that might have some use on the impending epidemic
It was added to during the pandemic. It became a crunch issue at the start of this year. Surprisingly not mentioned in the UK media and press when the EU threatened to “control” exports to the UK via NI… while we now “control” exports to the EU via any channel.
I mentioned it because of a post saying that we should keep “our” supplies to ourselves.
Well I wouldn't describe it as 'our supplies', but I think its valid to expect supply chains which the UK govt funded and enabled thanks to their quick decision making to be dedicated to local supply. The EU had the same opportunity as the UK in considering how best to setup the supply chains for the AZ vaccine. Instead of signing the deal and getting on with it they prevaricated, resulting in the delay and subsequent problems. Even then they had an opportunity to ask for help and be sensible about it, but instead they chose to make demands and issue threats. It's hardly a surprise then that they're not getting the response they want.
The idea that plucky old Britain took on all the work, and should keep the bounty for itself is fantasy.
No one apart from a few idiots are saying that. Instead it's a simple issue of the UK taking rapid action to set up supply chaings in good time, and now we are benefitting from that. Other countries had that opportunity too, and didn't take it.
but I think its valid to expect supply chains which the UK govt funded and enabled thanks to their quick decision making to be dedicated to local supply
Well, there’s your vaccine nationalism then. Think through the consequences.
And, a reminder, we were getting vaccines into care homes in December, while the world watched on… those doses where produced in Belgium, and it was a vaccine developed in Germany with Germany government funds. What if they said, “we’re stockpiling these for our own rollout”?
Well, there’s your vaccine nationalism then
It's not vaccine nationalism, it's simple logistics and common sense. Why does everything have to be badged as a 'nationalism' or UK vs EU or remain vs leave? This has got bollox all to do with nationalism, brexit or anything else. Stop trying to turn this into a UK vs EU issue.
Strictly speaking, this is purely a contractual matter between AZ and the EU.
Stop trying to turn this into a UK vs EU issue.
I wasn’t.
@Rio
That's an interesting article.
The graph on dose numbers and relative costs is fascinating, AZ are producing 400 million doses for between 25 and 33% the price of an equivalent number of curevac and j&j.
Well, there’s your vaccine nationalism then. Think through the consequences.
Kelvin, its not really(and I'm probably in this thread one of the most to lose from this EU BS, parents live in Spain and dad is transplantee). The Eu have messed up their strategy, compared to almost every other developed nation/region. Its not just on the AZ vaccine that they messed up. The thing is they banked a lot on the AZ vaccine being on time, because it was the cheapest of them all (someone correct me on this). Their prediction was that there would be plenty of suppliers and vaccines to chose from, but this hasn't been the case. From the start of January, newspapers have been calling them out on this blunder, but now its blown up in their face.
In addition, (I can't find the sources on this atm) the AZ vaccine also had delays on the UK front. However these were ironed out, earlier, since the contract with Az started 3 months earlier. The EU are very rich group of nations, so it blows my mind why the took such a cheap approach on this, when countries like Italy and Spain were bleeding out. We aren't talking about depriving a set of poor nations that could have never afforded the more expensive alternatives of this vaccine.
And then there is the "are they going to have the balls to go after Israel's supply?
I suspect VDL won't see the end of her tenure, even if vaccine delivery can be ramped up & I'm sure Pfizer, AZ etc will be trying as hard as possible, her credibility is toast
The EU are very rich group of nations, so it blows my mind why the took such a cheap approach on this, when countries like Italy and Spain were bleeding out.
One of the big reasons is that healthcare is devolved in the EU, individually some countries have input far more into development than others, Germany for example and their investment in the biontech RNA vaccine
France, Italy, Holland & Germany started the EU vaccine scheme initially & commission took it over
Another problem is that MHRA did a lot of heavy lifting for EMA, they won about 1/3rd of EMA contracts, EMA having moved bases & struggled to replace workers list to brexit won't have helped at all
Also it seems VDL is not that good! (if u remember she wasn't Merkels choice)
In addition, (I can’t find the sources on this atm) the AZ vaccine also had delays on the UK front.
On the face of it, sharing vaccines pro-rata between the purchasers seems reasonable, but as has been noted, these supply chains did not appear out of thin air, instead, they needed funding and developing in conjunction with the buyer. The buyers then assumes some risk given the teething problems that can be expected with ramping up vaccine production. The EU came in late, with a light wallet, and now implicitly demand that the UK absorb their risk by giving up some UK bound production. It's an outrageous proposition!
Question regarding vaccines and long Covid (which scares the shit out of me). I think I read but now can't find, that those suffering with it, having the vaccine may help cure it. Something about the vaccine killing the residual virus.
I may have dreamt this!
And before I forget, thanks to all for the informative information.
The EU came in late, with a light wallet, and now implicitly demand that the UK absorb their risk by giving up some UK bound production. It’s an outrageous proposition!
“The EU” came in late, EU countries did not… again, that is where our supply for our head start on vaccinations came from… a vaccine funded by the German government and produced in labs repurposed in Belgium.
“The EU” came in late, EU countries did not…
It's almost like having a supra-national layer of bureaucracy above nation states hasn't done them any favours. I'd be careful with that line of reasoning. 🙂
Honestly, it doesn't really matter where the early work happened. All that matters is that the EU thought it could cut corners in timescales and funding in setting up it's supply chains on the assumption that someone else would be able to supply them. Now they're suffering because of that, and instead of accepting the situation and doing whatever is necessary to solve it, they're turning it into an international incident. What's worse is that through their actions they've given every daily heil reading, two world wars and a world cup final jingoist the perfect excuse to say they told us so.