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The immediate discussion should be about using this leaked announcement to deflect from johnson being willing to breach a signed international agreement.
The CV19 announcement could have been made in the morning so this is a pathetic and crude attempt at news management and deflection.
The substance of the message would not be affected by not leaking and then announcing in a spaffing spiffing presser on wednesday morning pre-PMQs.
Ah, I see the problem; johnson would be neither drink nor drug free for a morning presser - he is barely coherent at 12.00 for PMQs.
As for the content of the leak - yep, all in favour of that; it should have been announced 2 weeks ago.
The Etonian buffoon is visibly struggling; how very excellent.
The shagmeister is being shown to be a shitbag.
Er… what do you mean scotroutes?
All their announcements come out this way it seems Frank… stupidly late in the evening… at least the measure in this one doesn’t come into force the next day. Why don’t we still have the daily briefings, and changes to the rules and the reasoning behind them explained to us all then?
New doublespeak this evening… we have ‘testing capacity’ but no room in labs to do that testing. If we don’t have the capacity in the labs, how do we have testing capacity?
Let’s not forget the Cumming modus operandum. One of these is a distraction. Maybe.
Or it’s the worlds biggest **** up, with the British public seemingly powerless to change its governing body.
Close contact within homes remains the most common risk of transmission identified by contact tracers.
Clearly people living with an infected person are most at risk.
But, after that, the most common contact infected individuals have is with visitors to their household, according to data gathered by England's NHS Test and Trace service.
It is ahead of leisure venues, shops, workplaces and health and care settings.
Clearly large gatherings in homes - especially indoors which is more likely to happen when the weather turns - present the greatest risk.
Quoted from the BBC.
So Test and Trace are saying that their data has traced more contacts to people visiting houses than other locations mentioned. Not surprised by that really - probably easier to trace people that the infected person knows. Little surprised that the new restriction on meeting up also applies to outdoor settings - but I suppose that's for ease of enforcement.
That's consistent with what was found in Glasgow. Probably fair to say that meeting in pubs etc can be safer than meeting at home, because in pubs there are rules, there's staff, and more peer/outsider pressure/awareness of being observed. Whereas at home, not so much.
I've a feeling that the actual risk factor there is actually Being A Cock.
kelvin - yes, they seem to have adopted a routine of late evening leaked announcements which now no longer fool anyone capable of rational thinking or critical reasoning.
As an old etonian with a classics background, johnson should understand the importance of clear thinking and clear comms.
Is the game trying to fool some of the people all of the time or all of the people some of the time?
Either way, it isn't working well enough.
Having said that, this evening's leak has displaced brandon lewis's comments about breaching a signed international treaty from the front pages.
Starmer is spoiled for choice on what to lead with at PMQs; looking forward to another ritual skewering of johnson. What a target; you couldn't miss - but corbyn did, regularly.
Wonder if Boris is actually preparing for PMQ's this time?
I suspect he just see it as a bit of an inconvenience, you know, having to actually justify his decisions. How dare they.
Sorry to go off track.
Poop - he's dismally failed to prepare for any previous editions of PMQs and I can't see that changing.
^^Nope, I just don't think he gives a **** to be honest.
Much better than putin or trump claiming they either have a functioning vaccine now or will have one...soon.
I have little faith in a vaccine ever being developed; if it happens - great but I'll live my life on the assumption it doesn't and there won't be an antidote.
It's the second time Astra have paused the trials, does seem to be a pretty standard/common event apparently... so fingers crossed.
In the situation I'm in at home my life is basically on pause till/if there is a vaccine.
I'm trying to remain optimistic, not always easy though.
Large trials have serious adverse events. That’s not unusual and more likely for large sample sizes. Don’t read much into this at the moment. Adverse events of special interest are just that, things we are looking for. Antibody enhanced infection would be concerning. Being run over leaving the clinic (which is an AE) is less interesting - except for the participant.
TiRed, thanks for...
Being run over leaving the clinic (which is an AE) is less interesting – except for the participant.
You may have temporarily lost your cycling performance but your sense of humour is intact.
Yes - as above, a pause in trial recruitment while a committee convenes to determine the importance of a safety event is standard. That Sky news article is pretty bland but accurate.
Given whats at stake, I would say that efficacy is more of a concern.
Hopefully the Russians are collecting the data needed for approval, after they approved it.
"The rise in cases in Bolton is partly due to socialising by people in their 20s and 30s. We know this from contact tracing.
"And through our contact tracing system we've identified a number of pubs at which the virus has spread significantly."
So pubs clearly an issue in Bolton, a precursor of what is to come.
Going to a pub or restaurant and not following social distancing rules there is the issue.
Fine for those of us with an ounce of sense and self control around alcohol. The other 80% are the problem.
Pubs aren’t magic. Schools aren’t magic. Transmission will occur at both. If anyone thinks we can get through this winter using just “common sense”, rather than a series of extra restrictions based on difficult trade offs needs to reset their expectations.
Is it perhaps possible that evidence for transmission in pubs is absent more due to the failings of the track and trace system rather than because of a magic force field which stops you passing it on within 10 metres of a row of optics?
You can normally provide the names of household contacts pretty quickly. The 'sign in at pubs' is less robust (is everyone providing accurate details as they lurch from bar to bar?), and quite possibly leads to fewer positive tests being linked to transmission at the boozer.
Either that or Tim Wetherspoon has photos of Boris meeting the Russians over a cheap breakfast.
More than happy to take whatever trade offs are needed to keep schools open as much as possible. The change in my kids in the last couple of weeks has shown how important it is.
But if that means closing pubs, restaurants and entertainment venues wholesale, then there needs to be a packet of measures to help the owners and their staff. Especially the responsible ones who have been trying to make it work safely with reduced capacity. Idiots who let customers flout the rules can lose their licenses and be shut down as far as I care.
More than happy to take whatever trade offs are needed to keep schools open as much as possible. The change in my kids in the last couple of weeks has shown how important it is.
I notice we haven't heard a great deal from Whitty recently, the same Whitty who suggested earlier in the summer that closing the pubs might be necessary to keep schools open...
needs to be a packet of measures to help the owners and their staff
Absolutely. I fear that, again, as in earlier this year, their policy will be to ‘let’ pubs stay open, but increasingly hint that we should be leaving them empty… so no trade and no help with coping with that. As a pub lover, I’m really worried about where this ends up for us. Pretending that they form no part in spreading the virus doesn’t help anyone though. A phone based contact tracing app might have helped here.
Hancock on radio4 now…
Good: he’s openly saying that a second wave is coming and action is required
Bad: he blames testing shortages on the people seeking tests
Schools aren’t magic
Yes, they are and I'm Gandalf!!!
Bad: he blames testing shortages on the people seeking tests
Not entirely sure how that explains people being directed to the opposite end of the country. Is it some sort of triage system to put off the malingerers?
Yes, they are and I’m Gandalf!!!
Is your motto 'You Shall Not Pass!' ?
It’s just bullshit and blame shifting. He was talking about ‘not wanting to introduce’ some kind of triaging and/or checking that people are eligible for a test… no evidence was presented to support his supposition that it is people asking for tests that shouldn’t that are the problem (rather than Serco being months behind getting everything in place in time for the return to schools etc).
Is your motto ‘You Shall Not Pass!’ ?
You've seen me teach?
Hang on I need to do some magic one of my tutor group is off with symptoms awaiting test results.....need to consult that wizard with birds in his hair....
Pubs aren’t magic. Schools aren’t magic. Transmission will occur at both. If anyone thinks we can get through this winter using just “common sense”, rather than a series of extra restrictions based on difficult trade offs needs to reset their expectations.
Yup
Especially the responsible ones who have been trying to make it work safely with reduced capacity.
Slight diversion but one large pub chain (forget which) has been "helping out" by knocking the service charge off bills. That's nice. So the staff ( poorly paid young people) are subsidising the return to normal. But hey, let's blame them for the second wave, eh!
?
In light of today's announcement (and I apologies, this may have been answered before, I've kept of this thread for a while for the sake of my sanity), I have a couple of questions:
1. What is the end goal for Covid? Given we clearly can’t eliminate Covid for the foreseeable, and it seems what whilst cases are rising, deaths aren’t really. So where are we trying to get to as a country? Any plans needs to have an end goal, so what are we working to?
2. At what point (number deaths, infections, whatever) do we have to accept it as part of the risks of everyday life?
Lunge is Kier Starmer and I claim my £5.
I suspect then current plan is to bumble around various waves until a viable vaccine appears, whilst at the same time trying to keep capitalism ticking over. When a vaccine does appear we’ll all be encouraged to pump ourselves full of it and get back on the tubes to work.
Slight diversion but one large pub chain (forget which) has been “helping out” by knocking the service charge off bills. That’s nice. So the staff ( poorly paid young people) are subsidising the return to normal. But hey, let’s blame them for the second wave, eh!
Thats just a succint way of saying 10% off, without having to reprint all their menus.
Might also be a nudge to get people to tip more than they would have done too.
End goal is a combination of regular vaccination and herd immunity, plus a continuation of social distancing measures in the medium term. In the meantime new treatment strategies will develop to mitigate the severity of infection in more vulnerable people.
At some point the definition of 'everyday life' will change. Perhaps to not include some of the things we took for granted before this.
If a viable vaccine fails to appear (and this is very much in the balance), then 'everyday life' will look very different.
Thats just a succint way of saying 10% off, without having to reprint all their menus.
Might also be a nudge to get people to tip more than they would have done too.
This. At our recent holiday resort we received stunning service from our “bubble” waitress from behind ppe. No cash on resort so we took her details and stuck £20 of Amazon vouchers and a Thank you card written by the kids in the post.
What a lovely thing to do!
-----
Lots of interesting stuff on this week's "More or Less" related to risk, testing, and contact tracing... and the numbers thrown around about them.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000mb06
Colleague at work has been told to be prepared to leave the lab & go back to hospital as there's been sharp increase in admissions & they are already at winter levels of bed occupancy 😬
Thats just a succint way of saying 10% off, without having to reprint all their menus.
I’ll pass that on. All young people will be happy to do their bit to protect the environment and avoid waste paper 🙂
Anthony Costello pointed out that the tests people are having to travel for could be carried out by GPs but it's the Tories' ideological commitment to the idea that Covid will be sorted by the private sector that stops them. Can't imagine why they might be trying to persuade people that the private sector is superior to the NHS.
Can’t imagine why they might be trying to persuade people that the private sector is superior to the NHS.
I don't think that's what is happening at all... it's just more of the reframing of what the NHS is... just a strong logo to hang on things that need support from the public. They won't accept the NHS being (obviously) taken away from them... but they will cooperate with and support private companies when they use the NHS logo.
Knees and toes, knees and toes.
Colleague at work has been told to be prepared to leave the lab & go back to hospital as there’s been sharp increase in admissions & they are already at winter levels of bed occupancy
Where, out of interest?
Shall we have a sweepstake on at what point, just like March, they belatedly shut everything down in a mad panic?
‘Hands. Face. Space’ emphasises important elements of the guidance we want everybody to remember: wash your hands regularly, use a face covering when social distancing is not possible and try to keep your distance from those not in your household.
But not in pubs. Or classrooms.
Lots of interesting stuff on this week’s “More or Less” related to risk, testing, and contact tracing… and the numbers thrown around about them.
I can heartily recommend 'More or Less'. It is a magnificently unemotional take-down of this useless government's lies, half-truths, sneaky sotto voce caveats, bullshit and bluster.
The underlying narratives in this ongoing take-down are interesting too. Hatty Mancock is showing signs of becoming marginally more 'clever' by using barely audible caveats muttered as an aside. David Brent-esque moral cowardice in reality, of course.
But not in pubs. Or classrooms.
Or shagging mistresses.
But not in pubs. Or classrooms
That's the big problem right now. Or do we use government logic and all go to schools where we wont catch it.
Where, out of interest?
Milton Keynes, this is general admissions & covid
If everyone has been isolated for 6 months they might not have been exposed to a lot more than covid that could be catching up now
A cold winter & bad flu season combined with a 2nd 🌊 would be brutal (let's not mention a no deal Brexit crash out)
By contrast to Kimbers, my brother in law works in ICU in a big West Midlands hospital and says they're still at 25% of bed occupancy and have rarely been quieter. Said people are getting it but are recovering and aren't troubling intensive care.
He's oddly positive about the whole thing.
Comment I read in the Guardian today
Boris Johnson = Hands. Face. Waste of Space
Can anyone clarify the school rules / guidance on school outbreaks?
Seems a bit confusing..
In my daughters small Primary there are children in school with snotty noses.
There's a few kids off with coughs (not sure if a snotty nose and cough is grounds for a test?).
One class teacher has just gone home as his child has Covid symptoms (cough and temperature)..
At which point do classes or bubbles have to self isolate?
Can anyone clarify the school rules / guidance on school outbreaks?
Seems a bit confusing..
In short no. Its up to each school
Good article:
tests people are having to travel
For Greece, for travelers from specific high risk countries, you need a test certificate that includes your passport number. Would a standard NHS test have that? Unlikely I would have thought. If other countries had the same (reasonable) policy then there would be no tests “wasted “ on holidaymakers.
Been tough day so far, one of my sisters old friends died this morning after contracting covid19 during treatment for cancer and I dropped my brother and sister in law off at Heathrow so she can depart this world on Friday in Switzerland, which means my brother and nephew will be self isolating for 14days whilst grieving when they get back ☹️ not sure it can get much worse at the moment, at least our little wake for her on Friday night won't be restricted to 6 people.
That's terrible, Dickyboy. All the best.
Tough times in tough times Dickyboy. Really feel for you and yours. A hard year for you all.
That's a tough thing to read dickyboy, hope it all goes as smoothly as it can.
I like the way that the incompetence of the government announcements doesn't even register anymore now. Announcing a 6 person limit for Monday just means everyone will pour into the pubs this weekend for one last jolly, hardly a whiff of anyone saying it's stupid and should be done from tonight. We've got so used to this poor handling of everything it's now the norm, a very dangerous place to be.
Announcing a 6 person limit for Monday just means everyone will pour into the pubs this weekend for one last jolly
Sounds familiar...
I've now got visions in my head of Boris going "What did we do last time? Oh yes! It worked really well first time round so just do that again!" to his team and presuming he's taken care of Covid-19 again.
There's also serious speculation that Merthyr and the Rhondda Valleys could be the next places to go into lockdown in Wales. It really is playing out exactly the same as the first time round.
So reading the new rules, and I'm probably wrong, can I now have more than two other households round for dinner as long as there's no more than six of us? I.e. can I have my dad and sister over, who both live separately?
As much as I thought it was a good thing as a Scotland resident to allow the Scottish government to do their own thing when England was not getting it right it feels like the time for all nations to rationalise to the 'rule of 6' between now and spring (unless it has to be more draconian).
Who’s applying for a job as one of Boris’s new ‘Covid Marshalls’ then?
The head of the Police Federation was just asked on Five Live what powers these ‘Marshall’s’ would have.
His answer: “I haven’t got a clue. It’s the first we’ve heard about it”
So, like the world-beating test and trace app, we can add Covid Marshall’s to the growing list of things that definitely aren’t going to happen, then?
Wales - upto 30 outdoors - that's 20 an 30 something Manchester residents off to N Wales coast for a spot of camping from now on. Like most others I'm a bit baffled why they are going for another Big Boris Blowout weekend approach again.
can I now have more than two other households round for dinner as long as there’s no more than six of us?
Yes. You and five mates can have a party in your house. Two families of four can not meet up to walk in the hills. I'm sure it makes sense to someone.
EDIT: not "now", but from Monday
**** me what a day, my other sisters sister in law has just discovered her partner dead, he'd shot himself, her husband died 20yrs ago, 10days after trying to rescue their daughter from a house fire (but she was safe in the back garden). So much tragedy for one family right now ☹️
So you can only be in groups of six but still sit in the pub and go to a football match or do organised sport. Seems to be saying you can be in big groups if your not friends or family. As far as i'm concerned the government had very little credibility before covid and they now have absolutely zero credibility.
Dickyboy, that is very scary. Don’t know what to say.
Bloody hell Dickyboy! Look after yourself, brother. That’s terrible. So sorry to hear 🙁
Thanks Kelvin, my sister married into a family of 11 kids I've lost count of how many have died in tragic circumstances and its all getting too much today, thankfully I have a big loving family and friends here but my sisters are in Australia & Zambia ☹️
I can see where the next out breaks are going to be.
Dropped eldest at uni.
Visitors just wandering the halls corridors, including family of 5.
No lounges allowed due to cv19, but the smaller kitchens are of course open, so guess where they are all crowding into? Including last night's party of 30+ Rumor is of a big party on Friday, it's Freshers after all.
Masks supposed to be worn in corridors of halls and all uni areas. No-one was wearing them in halls, and the uni bar no one has them on either.
Although there's a few sanitiser points in entrances, both in sons hall were empty, and have been since Monday.
So that's a thousand+ freshers from around the UK, on one site alone.
How long before eldest calls to say he is ill?
😟
Dicky, that's terrible. Take care of yourself and your family.
Be strong.
Thinking of you.
Dickyboy, puts a lot of other people's issues into perspective. Keep posting, stay sane, you know youll get nothing but support here.
Matt, unfortunately I think you will be right. My 16 year old goes into halls in Manchester this weekend (she's at ballet school but they live with university students). It was quiet last weekend when dropped her stuff off but not looking forward to this weekend. Luckily the halls seem to be 3 flats groups on each floor instead of lots long corridors so hopefully there won't be too much interaction if they don't want to.
I can see where the next out breaks are going to be.
Dropped eldest at uni.
From a friend who teaches at a uni in California
"The other universities have been a nightmare though so everyone's nervous. My neighbor just sent their son to Iowa State University where students and staff tested 24% positive last week "
My 16 year old goes into halls in Manchester this weekend (she’s at ballet school but they live with university students).
(〇o〇；) yep, definitely nothing to concern a father in that statement! What could possibly go wrong!
Maybe the cunning plan is all students to infect each other whilst only interacting with fellow young people?
Hands face space er moonshot.
If all else fails imaginate something 🙁
Maybe the cunning plan is all students to infect each other whilst only interacting with fellow young people?
There’s an argument that if you can keep them all together and minimise outside contact that’d work.
Sadly, I suspect at least 1/3 will go home most weekends.
Thanks @kelvin seems crazy that they're tightening stuff up but now people can do that! Works in my favour though I guess.
Hands face space er moonshot.
If all else fails imaginate something
Unicorn testing army! On hoverboards!