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if we expect people to adhere to them without an income, many can’t or won’t be able to.
Ah. Off you go on holiday. The government will pay you for the 2 weeks self-isolation on your return. And make sure your employer doesn't go under on account of there being no staff.
It seems obvious to me that if the govt wants people to self-isolate, it has to provide support. For better or worse, many people can't just sit on their arses for a fortnight with no work.
If the government mandates you stay at home, and your job can’t be done from home… yes they should offer financial support, irrelevant of where you take your holiday.
TF1 has announced that the place you’re most likely to catch Covid is at work. If I had it then I caught it from Madame who caught it from her teacher coleague who caught it from… ?
wtf? flying to spain was optional you know!? while spain may be very keen for you to go there, are you really proposing that the taxpayer underwrite the risks if you do, and then have to isolate for 2 weeks?
If teh government didn't want to pay for the potential quatorzaines it could have simply banned lesure travel out of the UK. It didn't to help the tour operators (which I don't contest). If you help one you help the other.
personal responsibility entirely optional then?
i've got three weeks off in august. guess where i'm going? nowhere.
i mean, a week in france shredding the gnar would be lovely, and i'd actually hoped to go twice this year, but there's this nasty bug going about, that means i might have to self quarantine for 2 weeks when i get back...
So, Del, you are worried about going to a place where the virus is circulating less and the natives are taking more care. To get there you can sit in your own car and the front deck of a ferry with nothing but fresh salt sea air. When you get there you'll find all the accomodation is Covid savey and the tables on the restaurant terraces are well spaced. Go inside anywhere and people will be masked.
Go shred some gnar, the biggest risk will be a stack on the bike.
But it's my human rights to have a foreign holiday you know!
personal responsibility entirely optional then?
If the government is mandating that you don’t go to work, then where does personal responsibility come into it? Why is it relevant that it’s down to travel, leisure or work… contact tracing… local lock down… quarantine after travel… if you’re encouraged to get back to normal by the government, and as a result of doing so you’re later told to stay at home, you and/or your employer should be helped by the government. Plenty of people would be sunk by 2 weeks unpaid leave.
no way i can get behind state sponsored extension of your holiday by two weeks.
its a personal risk, those who are risk averse can consider paying for insurance...
I knew there was potential to get locked down properly in Spain and made arrangements to be able to work there if necessary, sudden (un)expected quarantine on return - if i dont have two weeks food here, im sure i will work out online supermarket shopping before i starve.
oh and great work up there by Edukator, top trolling, some mask nonsense, supported by a multi country road trip culminating in pledging allegiance to the common sense party. 5*s
It is not an extension of your holiday, it is the government telling you to stay at home and not go to work. You will not get insurance for the government telling you to stay at home.
So, Del, you are worried about going to a place where the virus is circulating less and the natives are taking more care.
no - i'm not worried in the slightest. simple fact is i don't need to travel to france, so i'm not going to. nor do i expect the government to underwrite anyone else who chooses to. you'll note they haven't said they would, either.
i was talking to a head teacher friend of mine a couple of weeks ago, who'd pointed out to her staff that if they chose to holiday overseas and ended up stuck or having to quarantine, they wouldn't be getting paid. apparently there were some long faces.
bloody hell. 2 months ago i was being berated for loading my dogs in to the car and travelling 15 minutes up the road to a completely deserted forest to walk them...
Govt has already underwritten a shedload of furlough costs. The whole point of govt is to spread and share risks for the benefit of society as a whole. If it's not going to do that, it might as well not exist.
No trolling, if I were trolling I'd ask why people are talking about "quarantine" when it's only 14 days. I agree with Kelvin (sorry Kelvn, I know you don't like it whan I agree with you), if the government encourages you to do something because of the economic benefits it should also provide a safety net.
The lockdown took the pressure off the hospitals and gave time to both individuals and business to prepare for the post lockdown realities. Everyone has a mask, nearly every business I've been into (well over a hundred in the last three weeks) has plexiglass and all but a few had hand cleaner. The swimming pools even more sophisticated systems and everone is registered for tracing - as I was in all accomodation, all museums and visits, bars/restaurants (in Germany)... .
This is the post lockdown Covid world, on the whole it's working and would work even better were it not for the minority of black sheep who don't take it seriously. I can even sympathise with the black sheep who are often young and fit enough not to feel personally concerned by the virus.
And who knows, some of those black sheep may be people who've already had the virus and think "**** this, I'm already having enough trouble breathing post virus without wearing this ****ing mask when I'm no risk to anyone and no longer at risk". So far I'm resisting the temptation. How do you feel about it TiRed? You've definitely had it and yet you have to take all the personally pointless precautions too.
bloody hell. 2 months ago i was being berated for loading my dogs in to the car and travelling 15 minutes up the road to a completely deserted forest to walk them…
But not by the people posting here now.
you've checked that?
i sure as hell CBA.
No I haven't checked and sure as hell CBA either. There were a number of flaming threads and the core of posters on this thread were pretty moderate as I recall.
I’ll be holidaying at home. Son2 is off to Ireland to study he will be spending His first 14 days in isolation when he gets there. He could fly to Belfast and catch the train. But that’s not playing by the spirit of the rules. I’m investigating whether a day return flight to Dublin is allowed in the rules to help with his things. If not, he’ll be on his own.
I spend a lot of time looking at the rules and the evidence. They don’t always overlap as well as one would hope, but the rules are generally well-meaning and based on some science (mask use, for example). I have no faith in public “common sense“ and the government have failed to give clear and consistent messages. Go to work to save pret. My company won’t have us back in the office this year!
Oh and it wasn’t me gov. I don’t flame and never go as hominem. ;-).
My company won’t have us back in the office this year!
Even those of you with a 98% certain positive antibody test? TiRed? Is that because they don't want to discriminate or simply because the work is done just as well with everyone at home. If it's the latter the changes could become durable with most work being done from home.
black sheep
There’s a racial / racist history to that phrase so could you please leave it out of the forum.
thanks.
Spain thing is not surprising
I think the government have learnt from their mistakes & are being overly cautious now.
Can see why it's caught some off guard, with government keen to convince us it's safe to go back to work etc
Perhaps should've been clearer about holidays, maybe a traffic light system for countries where there may be a flare up big enough to enforce quarantine.
black sheep
There’s a racial / racist history to that phrase so could you please leave it out of the forum.
thanks.
WTF, is there? Maybe if you're specifically looking for it...
Perhaps my local brewery should rename their brand (they're based in Masham BTW).
maybe a traffic light system for countries where there may be a flare up big enough to enforce quarantine.
I think that's what already exists. I recall Nicola Sturgeon talking about whether or not some countries in the middle category would be on ScotGovs approved/non-quarantine list.
No I haven’t checked and sure as hell CBA either.
Oh - you just made a statement you weren't prepared to back up on the expectation it would just be taken at face value. Have you considered politics?
WTF, is there?
Yes, in the way it’s used to single out people stemming from the origination of the nursery rhyme.
I'm happy to be Edukated, Kryton. I've Googled and Wikied and unless it's used in the "Baa Baa Black Sheep" (which I haven't) context I can't find anything mainstream to say it's racist any more than say "blackmail" which is I hope you'd agree still acceptable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_sheep
Every other racist term you've raised I've agreed with you, on this one I'd like to see something main stream saying using black sheep is racist before dropping it to mean one of a group who is different and doesn't conform.
I think that’s what already exists.
No10 briefed there would be a traffic light system… it lasted a day. Sturgeon announced it so as to be inline with the UK gov, and then had it pulled out from under her.
Oh – you just made a statement you weren’t prepared to back up on the expectation it would just be taken at face value. Have you considered politics?
Well I didn't slag you off, TiRed didn't slag you off, so who did?
Is the post holiday quarantine thing even being enforced though?
Seeing how poorly mask wearing is adhered to on trains, I'd be very sceptical anyone will bother
Sturgeon announced it so as to be inline with the UK gov, and then had it pulled out from under her.
Sturgeon has always set her own policies so not sure what was "pulled"?
Correct. There is no confidence that antibody positivity conveys immunity. We are not going to be in an office in any significant capacity in 2020.
As for the govt being overly cautious, cases are trending gently up and they are encouraging us to go out to pubs, restaurants and workplaces more and more. Some caution.
Sturgeon has always set her own policies so not sure what was “pulled”?
The UK traffic light system was pulled.
The UK traffic light system was pulled.
It was only ever a warning. Let Sturgeon set her own policies.
Is the post holiday quarantine thing even being enforced though?
Seeing how poorly mask wearing is adhered to on trains, I’d be very sceptical anyone will bother
A fair chunk of society are selfish enough to only care about themselves so if the government are serious about this (of which I’m not convinced) they should make it an offence to skip quarantine.
It’s a bit like drink driving, if we didn’t have the drink driving laws the roads would be carnage on a Fri/sat night and although it’s likely you won’t kill someone if you drive home pissed, you certainly might and you are putting peoples lives at risk - exactly the same with skipping quarantine.
Let Sturgeon set her own policies.
The Scottish government have actually tried very hard to keep the UK in step, but it’s just about impossible when the government at Westminster briefs contradictory policy so often. The traffic light system for countries was one of those… briefed out to all the national media by No10, but never actually finished and put in place…
Flights booked in jan, and couldn’t claim the £1100 back on insurance because our govt changed it’s travel advice and told us it was safe to travel. For those in their ivory towers I would much have preferred to stay at home but can’t afford to write off that amount of money. Lots of others in the same position. The only reason we came was due to the sunk cost which we couldn’t reclaim and this was a direct result of govt policy. So you can all **** off quite frankly.
What do folk think will happen in schools in the new academic year? I'm torn - at the end of term school was saying 'all aboard for normal classes after the holidays' which is (as I understand it) the government line, but I'm struggling a bit to see how this will work if parents/teachers/children still need to self isolate for two weeks if have been around anyone with symptoms? I suppose I still envisage a need for online learning, but haven't seen this talked about much? If anyone has any links I could check out they'd be appreciated!
Lots of partial (and some complete) school closures… and then it gets messy. If the government was sending schools into the next term with a remit to be ready for mixed learning (some at home, some at school), and provided the help they promised (but have now forgotten) for kids without internet, then these closures could happen in a way that resulted in minimal disruption to the kids involved… as it is… Education will be a lottery next term. Lots of firefighting. Lots of the government passing the responsibility down the line to schools and teachers.
Talk to the school. They're the only ones who will really know what the situation is likely to be.
For those in their ivory towers I would much have preferred to stay at home but can’t afford to write off that amount of money.
If money was the key factor im sure it would have cost less to stay at home! In reality you wanted something to show for your cash, which is understandable. But you must have known you were taking a gamble on the rules not changing, and you lost. No point in bumping your gums about it now.
So do you plan to self isolate for 2 weeks on return, or will you ignore the rules as you think they are stupid?
Now Boris (17.5 st and 5'9'' when he went into hospital) is telling people to lose five pounds and eat out to help out with ten pounds.
Talk to the school. They’re the only ones who will really know what the situation is likely to be.
If only that were true. We know what we've planned for, but are at the mercy of reactive/pragmatic/random/ideological/nudging (delete as appropriate) government decisions as much as anyone.
From September it will be suck it and see...
Super small sample here but based on a trip round Sainsbury Streatham common today, ~15% not wearing a mask and 25-30%, probably 30%, wearing it wrongly ranging from over mouth but not nose to just as a chin warmer.
So maybe enough compliance to be useful? I do still feel like one of the mugs for sticking to the rules though.
Three slightly older guys sitting on the ferry last night, none of them wearing masks. Possibly a gathering of the local asthmatics club.
No point in bumping your gums about it now.
If the government says you can travel, but then, once you’ve left, tells you not to return to work on your return, they have a responsibility to help you or your employer to ensure you have an income while kept at home by government instruction. Why be rude to those caught in a hole created by the government? Your area could be locked down tomorrow, and you might me told not to go to work… will you be ‘bumping your gums’ then if you’re not getting paid because of what the government has forced upon you?
No way I’m risking a trip abroad. If the government wanted to close down the travel industry, without paying to help them, then I suspect they’ve achieved that with this move.
If the government says you can travel, and you decide to go somewhere where indications of a second spike in c19 and widespread behaviour that is likely to increase spread have been reported for weeks (early May for second spike) you’ve kinda made your own bed.
Well, that applies to many areas in the UK. If you visit somewhere in the UK that the government says you can, and then get told afterwards by the government that you now have to stay away from work for two weeks, who pays you what?
Look, this is deliberate, you’ve been primed to say ‘personal responsibility’ as an excuse for the government not offering assistance, even when they are mandating that someone stays at home. You’ve been played.
Every other racist term you’ve raised I’ve agreed with you, on this one I’d like to see something main stream saying using black sheep is racist before dropping it to mean one of a group who is different and doesn’t conform.
Reminds me I got into another Pre-Brexit family debate about a 5 years back which went bad. tbh it started out bad. One of the family was saying ‘’They aren’t British, bla bla’
Sister-in-law is British-born with Ghanian heritage, wife took umbrage from the off but made the ‘mistake’ of saying that she found the ‘us vs them’ narrative offensive and asked how they felt about her sister. Family-member responded with ‘you don’t understand, it’s natural. If you watch white sheep they won’t go near the black ones’*. That was a fun dinner. 😢
*Utter bolx of course.
****ing idiotic. As for the ‘link’ - this is offered only IME, so not sure it’s a common racial epithet, more like a general scapegoat (wait what? Goats now?)
If the government says you can travel, but then, once you’ve left, tells you not to return to work on your return,
It was quite clear..you can travel but the rules may change at any point and you may have to quarentine on return if they did. With that in mind anyone who decided a holiday was that important took a gamble. I think most thought the gamble was probably worth it. If they didn't consider the eventuality of having to quarentine on return then that's just plain stupid of them.
So pretty much this..
If the government says you can travel, and you decide to go somewhere where indications of a second spike in c19 and widespread behaviour that is likely to increase spread have been reported for weeks (early May for second spike) you’ve kinda made your own bed
Back in March I had paid for a holiday to Spain, and 2 weeks before I was due to go i called off, despite the government's official advice it was ok to go. Why..because any sane person could see if I went there was a possibility I wouldn't get to come back any time soon. So I didn't risk it. Not really much difference to the situation now tbh.
I made the same call, and cancelled our France trip. I didn't want the hassle and uncertainty. But that changes nothing... if the government mandates you stay at home, and you can't work from home, they should ensure that either your employer can still pay you (even if at 80% or whatever) or they should offer direct financial assistance. I don't care if they are keeping you at home because you went to Spain, France, Cornwall, Leicester or your local pub... if they are making you stay at home, they should ensure you have an income while they do.
What are your feelings WRT those asked to self isolate during a call from track and trace?
AFAIK there's no indication that employers should pay sick as normal, you should be entitled to SSP, or the self employed would be able to claim against any sickness insurance they might have.
I guess we all pay, one way or another, but it'd probably be nice if there were some joined up thinking. Oh wait - Boris.
Again... it's unclear... Raab was claiming yesterday that your employer can't "punish you" for being kept at home due to track and trace... even when asked about zero hour contracts. And he ignored freelancers etc. This has to be made good... or people will be forced to avoid being traced, and will ignore instructions to stay at home when travelling from another country (be that holiday, visiting family, or for work) that gets removed from the safe list mid trip. Most of us will find the way to fund one two week stay at home instruction... but what happens later in the year if told multiple times to stay at home due to contact tracing? Not everyone has a financial buffer big enough for four, six, eight, ten weeks off between now and Christmas. Clear rules and help for employers are needed, and help for those not helped by employers if the rules allow that to happen.
I am eternally thankful that I can work from home. This is not directly about me. But we're all effected if the government can't join up the dots necessary to make the isolate part of track/trace/islotate work in the manner necessary to control this virus.
Well he's right of course, they can't "punish". They can not pay you, not renew your contract, or just outright sack you. But they can't "punish" you.
The govt's done some things reasonably well, like the furlough scheme. Just insisting that randomly-selected people sit at home for two weeks with no means of support is not one of them. When people get sent to prison, at least they get fed (and heat and water etc).
Mentioned on the lunchtime news there have been a handful of fines issued for breaching quarantine rules, it "might" be enforced
Well he’s right of course, they can’t “punish”. They can not pay you, not renew your contract, or just outright sack you. But they can’t “punish” you.
His choice of words were deliberate, yes, that's why I chose to quote them... suggesting to the public that they are safe... when they are at the mercy of employers... employers that simply might not be able to pay them if they can't work. If the government orders you to stay at home, and your work means you can't work from home, they have to put in rules and help to protect you... otherwise, if the choice is *isolate* or have an income... many people will have to avoid the *isolate* option, won't they... the government must know this.
I'm in France, just driven the length of the West side of the country. No one gives a shit. The mask wearing is for show.
We've heard about four English speaking families down in Arcachon and Biscarosse and seen less than ten UK cars in 2 weeks down here.
Despite the facts @Edukator spouts the French do not distance, they do not observe the rules and the masks are used in the most minimal way possible to comply with the rules and carry on as normal.
But of course, it's entirely down to Brits bringing the disease over. Everything I can see in front of me is a lie.
My ex-boss was French and told me many years ago..."in France we have so many laws and many of them contradict each other. So what we do is choose the ones to obey and ignore the petty ones, or the ones we don't like"
I think this summarises their approach to everything not just CV19
Mentioned on the lunchtime news there have been a handful of fines issued for breaching quarantine rules, it “might” be enforced
Oh dear
the French do not distance, they do not observe the rules and the masks are used in the most minimal way possible to comply with the rules and carry on as normal.
The carry on as normal with a mask bit sounds good news. You're right about distancing in Biscarrosse and other resorts on the west coast, the lack of distancing made the news here and the local authorities imposed mask wearing outdoors in some places:
Hope you had a good holiday anyhow, the weather has been great if nothing else. We won't be going to the west coast till September because it's always packed in Summer and staycations mean some places are unusually busy this year.
Any more comment on black sheep to mean non-conformist, Kryton? I haven't used the n-g expression with it's origins in slave ships since it was pointed it out but would quite like to contiue using the non-conformist black sheep, blackmail, whitewash, brown sugar and other expression which happen to have black, brown or white in them but no racist conotation.
Any more comment on black sheep to mean non-conformist, Kryton?
It took me all of 2 minutes of googling last to extend from the nursery rhyme so the use of "black.." as a racially biased negative so I'm sure you could do the same. Feel free to do your own extended research I'm not interested in an internet debate about it hence I didn't bother posting the links.
What about the term "Black Swan events"?
I’m not interested in an internet debate about it hence I didn’t bother posting the links.
No evidence in anything worth linking then. The nursury rhyme has " Baa baa " at the start which is pretty distictive. I'll make sure I don't use it in a context that could invoke the nursury rhyme.
Shutting down debate isn't the best way to rally people to your cause. I'm open to persuasion you know that, it took me half a dozen clicks to realise that n-g was best not used, and as many to realise that dropping black sheep to mean non-conformist a step too far.
Sorry Kryton, I’ve never heard a harsh use of black sheep. Do we have to get rid of all uses of the word black, or yellow, or red, or brown.
Will left handed folk start demanding we can’t say sinister?
I think this is a case of looking for offence that isn’t meant.
Compare the results of two Google searches.
"nitty gritty expression wiki"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Talk:nitty-gritty
"black sheep expression wiki"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Talk:nitty-gritty
One immediately bring up a link to slavery and thus racisim. The other gets no link to either on whichever wiki page you choose.
Calderdale cases per 100,000 as of last week approx 600. Andalucía about 20. I think everyone on calderdale can sleep easy 😀. It’s a hysterical over-reaction. I wish I could stay here for the rest of the summer, it’s much, much safer.
Calderdale cases per 100,000 as of last week approx 600.
Really?! Surely they’d be under local lockdown if they were that high. Leicester locked down at around 120 if I remember right.
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Fair enough I read the wrong scale. About the same then. Still no need to panic.
Despite the facts @Edukator spouts the French do not distance, they do not observe the rules and the masks are used in the most minimal way possible to comply with the rules and carry on as normal.
That was not my experience from 2 weeks in Paris. Lot of mask wearing in the street, everyone in shops was wearing a mask, had to have an appointment to go into the Orange shop. Quite a lot of people in the street, and outdoor eating in full swing, but not many people dining indoors. Masks and gel for sale everywhere. But there is an uptick in the cases so maybe all this isn't enough 🙁
Hope you had a good holiday anyhow, the weather has been great if nothing else. We won’t be going to the west coast till September because it’s always packed in Summer and staycations mean some places are unusually busy this year.
Fantastic, I'm an huge francophile, family bike trails everywhere. 'Like a huge centre-parcs' is how one of our party described it.
Atlantic waves are rolling, lakes are bath warm and the vibe wonderful.
As almost all the brits are away it's empty by normal standards so I hear, we're having the time of our lives.
Just getting used to moving our days 3hrs backwards too. 😎
(not cheap anymore though, famiky bank is drained. 😳)
Enjoy your stay, Dazh. It's a pandemic, it's everywhere, even North Korea is reporting cases and you don't get more isolationist than that unless you own a self-sufficient private island.
If you travel stick to the local rules even if some of the locals don't. Look after yourselves and in doing so you'll look after everyone else.
I wouldn't fly, that's just a personal choice, because unless you're CFH in business class it's a miserably crowded, sweaty and smelly experience at the best of times.
If you're not local it's really not a good idea to party noisily through the night on cheap booze and leave puddles of puke around the place when everyone else is tucked up in their tents/campers/caravan. It's not a good idea if you're local but if you're not you're creating tensions that will lead to prejudice - and in Covid times, well. And then you'll moan when you travel and people are wary of you. I worked a Summer on campsites in Royan and St Tropez way back when BTW, that was an amusing insight.
Are we honestly now saying that the use of the term 'black sheep' is racist??? I've never heard anything so stupid in all my life. You really need to go out your way to make that connection.. and I think only a tiny percentage of people would.
Are we honestly now saying that the use of the term ‘black sheep’ is racist???
We?
Perhaps the Black Sheep discussion could be herded off to somewhere else, and the Mods could clear things back onto topic?
I see what ewe did there.
I've just noticed you posted while I was typing, Picton. My last post is absolutely not a reply to yours or aimed at you. Your observations are accurate about what's happening with Covid measures on the west coast.
I shouln't have raised the issue of those puking campers on here. There are a minority of idiots everywhere, nowhere has a monopoly.
Perhaps the Black Sheep discussion could be herded off to somewhere else, and the Mods could clear things back onto topic?
I'll drink to that!
This just popped onto my news feed..
Lasting heart damage from corona virus in majority of cases. That's a pretty scary read..some of them did my even have any symptoms!!