Sandwich,
I'm not arguing about what is or isn't an essential item, I'm more drawing attention to the ambiguity coming from the government and how the police have no clear guidance and are having to make things up on the spot. Leading to confusion all round.
I'm not saying what should or shouldn't be done, I'm just highlighting the lack of both clear messaging and leadership.
So if your saying this is an over reach from the police I'm agreeing with you.
A public health emergency and it’s all about your liberty?
Yes when they're using public order legislation incorrectly it's about all our liberty. Don't roll over on over reach.
The old-school Tories understood this. Both Hurd and Clark both told the ACPO at the time to go swing when they came fishing for excessive police powers.
Policing by consent is a major part of our (not just my) civil liberties. The call for ever stringent restrictions does neither us nor the police service any favours.
Nothants CC is trying frantically to distance himself from his intemperate outburst earlier by blaming 'the media' he is not fit for purpose his words were recorded on video at his press conference. I recommend that we all have a look at David Allen Green is commenting on Twitter.
Sad news about your Gran Drac. Sorry to see that.
Copied from my faceache post yesterday
Overheard in line for Tesco "I dont really need more food but my sister is coming for Easter" and "I need more food as my two grand daughters are visiting". For others it appears to be a family outing. Face masks not covering noses are also the required fashion item!
Also face marks pulled down so people could talk amused me, as did couples going shopping together and people standing inline for an hour to buy a basket containing crisps and Easter eggs....we're ****ed.
Sorry to hear about your gran, Drac.
These laws are eminently justifiable given the public health emergency, are provisioned under the Public Health Act 1984, and have a two-year time limit. Yes, they have not been drafted perfectly, but they had to be drafted quickly. I'm not sure what you want, you say policing by 'consent'? What does that mean in this context? The laws aren't credible if compliance is voluntary.
I’m wearing a mask when I go shopping unlike the other 98% of shoppers
I havent got one, I expect its the same for many
Thanks all I’ve no news on my Gran yet just have to wait. I’ve seen my mother today who’s mother it is, she’s very realistic about and knows this just May be my Gran’s time. We lost my grandad about 18 months ago she pretty much has wanted to be with him since.
I don’t wear a mask either but I make sure I keep my distance, I don’t cough on my hands or a handy and I make sure I carry a hand gel which I use as soon as enter or leave a shop.
I havent got one, I expect its the same for many
I suspect this is the case for many - there’s pretty much SFA on Amazon.
Drac,
I know I'm awesome thanks.
If the advice here is simple then why is everyone, (including the police) so confused? Answer me that one for me would you. That would be awesome.
I know it seems a bit mad I'm talking about Kenya but my other half is out there looking after her 93 year old, rather unwell father so I'm concerned and consequently keeping myself informed about what's going on out there.
Of course I'm aware that Kenya is more of a police state than the UK, probably more aware than you as I have family out there so don't insult me. Your argument is that because their Police are more brutal than ours any advice from their health ministry must be wrong. That's baseless whataboutary.
It does however give me a chance to compare and contrast government press briefings and public information campaigns. If you can be bothered, go on YouTube and look at any briefing from their government then compare it in terms of leadership and clarity with what we're getting here.
You'll also see the energy they are putting into tracking and testing (much more comprehensive than the UK) and how they have managed to procure more ppe equipment, more sanitizer and more masks than we have here, albeit with a fraction of the resources at our disposal
To put it quite simply, if you followed the advice of their government rather than ours you'd have more chance of staying alive.
Get back to me when you've got something to say other than just repeating what the bunch of clowns we have for a government here are saying. Or, if you can't be bothered to do any research that might contextualize what we're hearing here, just answer me that simple question I put earlier....
If the government messaging is so clear, why is everybody so confused (including police). The last few pages of this thread are testament to how confused everyone is and we're generally a pretty informed bunch.
Im not confused, but then again, would a confused person would say that?
fishing for excessive police powers
The police haven’t been given excessive powers, and their role in this goes beyond “applying the law” it is also to help stop the spread of the virus, and some people taking the piss need help from them to understand what is currently “expected” of us, rather just what we can get away with within the relative liberal laws we’re lucky to have (for now).
The police need our support and help right now, not people calling them out for doing what is a thankless and not tightly prescribed role during this crisis.
Drac,
Sorry to hear about your Gran, I'm in the same boat, Father in law out in Kenya and Mum in care home here where they're doing testing today. Mum with very bad dementia and I know she would rather just slip away if she had the choice. Tough times.
Glad you're using hand sanitizer though I'd recommend you use a mask in public where others are present if you can get or make one.
Probably not important right now, but the UK govt graphs had actual typos. Not raising my confidence I them not making this shit up as they go along.
Number of people in intensive care in France is -89 today. In Strasbourg the rules are being tightened a bit more; only one person allowed per car for shopping trips. But the towns that were plaaning to enforce wearing masks have been stopped by central gouvernement.
But where do these "extra" police powers stop?
Will they tell you to put the Napolina chickpeas back and buy the Tesco's own brand?
Will they be able to advise on how to make your own pomegranate molasses?
They haven’t got the powers yet. They may need them soon if enough of the population take the piss and don’t take the measures expected of us all during this.
Just use your head. And allow the Police to crack on with dealing with the pisstakers.
If the government messaging is so clear, why is everybody so confused (including police)
They’re not a few are others are ignoring it. The police aren’t confused either there’s been a few misunderstandings on the law that was rushed in that they’re still trying to learn.
Kelvin,
Not calling the police out on this one either, they're damned if they do and damned if they don't in the current climate and lack of instruction from the gov't.
I'm just dumbfounded by the notion that you can sell non essential equipment but can't buy it. It's Kafkaesque as they say.
At least they're not tear gassing us eh Drac 😎
(Emoji with shades to keep the gas out of my eyes.)
I hope they can also offer some good advice on home haircuts too, after all they are public servants.....
😉
Without a definition of “essential” I’m not sure the supermarkets can act. Kafkaesque indeed. The police can work out if you’re doing the shop for your household, and added a few extras that aren’t really essentials… or if you’ve been through the supermarket, probably the most likely place for transmission outside the public services, just to buy something trivial, and acting up while there.
I’m just dumbfounded by the notion that you can sell non essential equipment but can’t buy it. It’s Kafkaesque as they say.
Except in the real world this isn't actually happening. The police don't give a stuff what you buy.
Why make shit up. 🤦🏻♂️
Been away from the house today for the first time in two weeks, had to pick some stuff up from work and took the opportunity to go shopping on the way back rather than make a second trip. I was truly surprised at the number of people out and cars on the road. It did not feel locked down at all. I expected a quiet Sunday morning felt more like business as usual.
There seem to be to be a lot of people who didn't get the memo. For those being sensible Drac is right the message is quite clear. For the other 50% of the population doing mental gymnastics to justify carrying on as normal and those who are too thick or selfish to work it out (those at the 660 parties in Manchester last weekend) the message has been fragmented and contradictory. There are plenty on here debating the nuances of how to exercise, visit their local second home etc. The message hasn't been simple enough.
The police don’t give a stuff what you buy.
Exactly. Stories of the police dealing with ‘shoppers’ tend to miss out that is the behaviour of people that would trigger the police having a word, if they then make the point about non-essential journeys, as part of trying to deal with someone acting up, then that becomes the news story.
Meanwhile in Cumbria - sensible policing with acknowledgement that vast majority not taking the proverbial.
Admittedly it may all go to hell this weekend as it rather nice weather...
Did you hear the Cumbria Police Radio4 piece? Flagged down two blokes with a canoe on the roof, and turned them around and sent them home. Sensible policing at a difficult time. Obviously no specific law against having a canoe on your roof… or going canoeing in a group of two… but the police need to help the public understand what is required of them. Stay at home.
Drac and some others are the voice of reason here.
We're seeing startlingly good levels of observance of the rules/guidelines/law/instructions. The people taking the piss aren't doing it because they don't know what the rules are, they're just ****s.
Rushed laws are bad laws. If you wanted a well considered properly scrutinised lockdown then you could have had one - in mid 2022 after it had gone though all the consideration and scrutiny legislation requires. What's there is workable and *IS* working - it's reduced new cases to a level the hospitals can cope with - that's what it was for.
People can refer to public information adverts, a clear PDF linked somewhere up there ^^^^ and the legislation itself in ascending order of detail. If you have a question that isn't answered by the legislation itself then only a judge and appeal judge can help you after you've been convicted and plead not-guilty. Courts interpret laws, not Civil Servants or Politicians.
I can't see myself needing to go to that length. I seem to have come to an interpretation of the rules consistent with pretty much everyone else and one that has not caused me any bother with the rozzers all.
There were 2 blokes up here arrested for digging worms on a beach, they’d traveled from Newcastle together in one car. Now I’ve not read anywhere that says you can’t or it’s not essential but you’d have to be thick as **** or just arrogant to think otherwise.
It’s simple only travel when necessary, go out to exercise locally and to shop.
We’re seeing startlingly good levels of observance of the rules/guidelines/law/instructions. The people taking the piss aren’t doing it because they don’t know what the rules are, they’re just ****.
Yes we are and it cant be simplified down to not knowing what the rules are. There will be the broad spectrum from ignorance to intent and everything in between.
It did not feel locked down at all.
I'm unconvinced.
Let's assume EVERYBODY was ignoring the lockdown in your area. The schools are shut, the pubs are shut, almost all the shops are shut. So you'd still have a massive reduction in the number of people travelling.
There's less stuff open now than there is on a Sunday so there must be far less traffic than a Sunday. Unless you live in an area where few people can work from home and you happened to be out at rush hour in which case they're not ignoring the lockdown, they're following the rules.
Shutting the schools *alone* has a massive effect of traffic.
Well 8pm and my street was full again with noise from all around too. 😢
x
Quite frankly Im not overly fussed how many people are in cars. As long as they aren’t socialising/shopping/partying in big groups.
Well 8pm and my street was full again with noise from all around too. 😢
Someone has paid for a plane with a banner to fly round the hospital here tonight!
It sure if this has been discussed, or if this is the thread for it, feel free to ignore.
Why has the foreign secretary been giving regular briefings/conferences relating to matters at home, but the Home Secretary is nowhere to be seen (or rather, I haven’t seen her)? I only remembered her existence on seeing a ‘where’s Pritti’ book joke. Was her bullying that bad?
Someone has paid for a plane with a banner to fly round the hospital here tonight!
Fantastic.
The tiny kernel of teenage anarchy left buried deep within me is secretly admiring the 660 parties of Manchester, even though I know it's stupid.
Round here the rules have been followed brilliantly. Apparently our council area (south coast - Adur) is the 2nd most ‘compliant’ (whatever that means) in the country.
i rode back past town on my once daily last week and the only people in town were the alcoholics and drug addicts.
seen a LOT of box fresh carrera bikes from my new working from home perch in the front window.
8pm tonight had lots of Over the Rainbow played by anyone who fancied joining in. We had trumpet, violin and accordion. Sounded great.
I'm going to back stumpyjohn up here.
While out working making deliveries there was definitely a lot of people out for non-essential reasons judging by who and what was in their cars today. Cars with sleeping gear in the boot (mattress, pillow) plus a bag or two. A load from the garden centre. Saw a few cars obviously going around picking up friends, saw same cars then parked up in a layby near a park. Boy racers out most of the day. Nearly every delivery I made gave me more stories of people out to buy frivolous crap and people planning weekend get-togethers. Saw an alarming amount of caravans and campers out heading west.
If you're one of the people that have had to be on the road for legitimate reasons for the last 2 weeks it is plainly obvious that people are out a lot more for non-essential reasons. It may be a minority that are doing it but that minority is getting larger every day and I really fear that this long weekend will see it rise further. I really hope I am just overreacting and it will calm down but I fear it won't, a lot of my customers think the same way too.
Drac, good luck with your family battling this. My worst fear is getting a call that one of my family has it, plenty that are in the high risk group. This stuff is real and it's not going away any time soon.
From the local FB "community" page
Its a sad state of affairs when we have to remove a video of our frontline staff cheering because of all the comments moaning that they are not social distancing.
These people are working right next to one another all day long whether that be caring for patients, in the operating theatres, or sat next to each other in an ambulance or police car.
It's physically impossible for them to social distance due to their job. But when we post a video of them cheering for their colleagues for 30 seconds people are outraged.
Even more disheartening that these heroes request to have their video and even photos removed due to the abuse they are receiving. Get a grip folks!!!
I despair with some people