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Got a conference in India tomorrow that I'm debating whether to swerve - 100 or so delegates so not a large meeting, but a good one that I was looking forward to. Reckon the program will be decimated by Westerners not showing up, but perhaps this is the sort of mingebag thinking that just adds to the problem?
The circus of international air travel does not appeal right now, I must admit. Anyone else cancelled work trips abroad?
Picked this up from the worldometer site – https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Interesting remarks about asymptomatic transmission and death rates
Bruce Aylward, World Health Organization Joint Mission to China:
“I think the key learning from China is speed — it’s all about the speed. The faster you can find the cases, isolate the cases, and track their close contacts, the more successful you’re going to be. […]
People keep saying [the cases are the] tip of the iceberg. But we couldn’t find that. We found there’s a lot of people who are cases, a lot of close contacts — but not a lot of asymptomatic circulation of this virus in the bigger population. And that’s different from flu. […]
This is odd considering what the yanks are saying....
https://www.livescience.com/how-deadly-is-coronavirus-covid-19.html
Genetic analysis of the virus circulating on the West Coast suggests that COVID-19 has been transmitting through the region for about six weeks. This community spread was not detected earlier for several reasons. First, about 81% of cases do not require hospitalization, according to data from the outbreak in China. People experiencing symptoms such as a mild fever, cough and congestion are unlikely to visit a doctor. Second, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) protocol limited testing to only those with symptoms and a history of travel to an affected region. Finally, there is a lag between virus transmission and fatalities simply because it takes time for the most severe cases to kill. (A World Health Organization report from China found that it took three to six weeks for critical cases to be resolved, either when the patient died or recovered.)
In fact that WHO interview, proclaiming how great the Chinese health system is almost sounds like a propaganda piece.
And on that note...
https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/03/02/china-blames-united-states-coronavirus/
A Battle Against Epidemic: China Combating COVID-19 in 2020 compiles numerous state media accounts on the heroic leadership of President Xi Jinping, the vital role of the Communist Party, and the superiority of the Chinese system in fighting the virus. It has gotten rave reviews in Chinese media, not least because it was published by their ultimate boss—the Central Committee Publicity Department, formerly known as the Propaganda Department.
The Chinese audience won’t be the only lucky readers. The book will be translated into English, French, Spanish, Russian and Arabic, with more likely to follow. Authorities know the virus could irreparably damage China’s image in the world s eyes, but they also see an opportunity to push their own narrative of organization, success, and triumph. Part of that involves glossy propaganda texts, combined with more sophisticated, individually targeted efforts. Part of it is pushing a new set of conspiracy theories about the virus itself, aimed at the ultimate enemy: the United States.
SWMBO was due to fly to UAE next week for an event, which is now postponed.
I’m wondering if the London Marathon is going to be canned next month!
Anyone else cancelled work trips abroad?
I was supposed to go to Denmark, but all non-essential travel has been cancelled.
Anyone else cancelled work trips abroad?
All international travel at my place was banned 3 weeks ago with exceptions to be approved by the global COO. Probably not long before inter-office travel is also banned. I'm already working from home as much as possible and only going in for meetings. That's not a new thing though.
Interesting 24hrs in our household.
Mrs_oab has a primary immunodeficiency meaning she is susceptible to many illnesses, repeatedly.
A visit to the GP yesterday with chesty cough, headache and raised temperature was pretty much brushed off... Until she pulled up the email from her consultant the previous day suggesting she be off work as blood tests show she has an infection.
This morning she calls her employers 'sick line' there to call out the skivers. The call handler was suggesting that with chesty cough, headache, aches and pains, raised temperature that she would still be in work as she has antibiotics...
Now we are sure it's not C19, it's a (common to her) chest infection. Her consultants concur.
But it's interesting that health professionals are not yet seemingly reacting with caution when presented with headache, chesty cough, raised temperature...
This morning she calls her employers ‘sick line’ there to call out the skivers. The call handler was suggesting that with chesty cough, headache, aches and pains, raised temperature that she would still be in work as she has antibiotics…
FFS prescribed antibiotics but if you take time off you’re a skiver?
Does your missus need or want to work for people who treat her or assume she acts like a schoolchild?
It sounds like her consultant is willing to write a letter if she takes more than a week off, I say take the time off, get the letter from the consultant and tell them to do one.
Pricks.
But it’s interesting that health professionals are not yet seemingly reacting with caution when presented with headache, chesty cough, raised temperature…
If she mentioned difficulty breathing / shortness of breath it may have been a different matter.. i think this is they key symptom for C-19.
Its crazy that employers expect employees to go to work ill and quite possibly infect others.
The call handler was suggesting that with chesty cough, headache, aches and pains, raised temperature that she would still be in work as she has antibiotics…
That's a really shitty attitude.
Now I complete get that you understand your wife's health and you aren't overly concerned but why would an employer want a sick staff member at work.? Even if its just a normal winter malady why would you want a sick employee spreading it to other people?
I was more than a little amused by the tories stating retired healthcare workers could cover the gaps in the NHS. Like that is going to happen! What are they going to do - conscript them? Most will have lapsed professional registration anyway! #Are they going to removed the need to have that registration? for most it will be impossible to re register
sorry, just testing
Testing what? That you can still post on here from home if you are forced to leave the office and work from home.:-)
Getting a tad worried now. My 77 year old mum is in Hospital (and has been for 6 weeks) awaiting urgent triple bypass surgery. Finally due to go for surgery today and hospital appears to be in lockdown after a suspected case came in, wandered around the hospital first (to M&S food and cafe according to nurse) then A&E. ‘Cancelled’ operation at this stage, she’s still nill by mouth though 🤷♀️. If that is the case, I do seriously wander how stupid some people are though. The handful of people I’ve seen not washing their hands in the HOSPITAL toilets in the last few weeks is also crazy.
That’s a really shitty attitude.
I completely agree - If this was my wife I'd be insisting she stay home, regardless of c19. The employer can go f...
Loads of places have this attitude towards sickness, generally horrible. But come on! It's plastered over every TV, sm platform, every discussion I hear around the office! It is a really really stupid idea to force someone matching the syptoms to come into the workplace!
But when they understandably refuse/are prevented by the law from covering, it'll give the tories some things to blame that aren't their incompetence/intentional running down of the NHS/scaring useful immigrants away.
Anyone got any links to cut-price luxury holidays please? Got a week off in March....
I was more than a little amused by the tories stating retired healthcare workers could cover the gaps in the NHS. Like that is going to happen! What are they going to do – conscript them?
Sop for pensioners. Remember, a significant portion of the Tory old vote still turn the telly on to BBC2 Saturday early evening and still watch the same old episodes of Dad's Army on a regular basis.
Jolly old Blitz Spirit will have this thing knocked on the head in no time, Mr Mainwaring.
Me I am a selfish git. If it hits Edinburgh badly I am going to quit. No way am I going to be sent to work in acute wards ( my ward is being run down for a change of use) where I do not have the skills in a chaotic situation.
Do all 53 confirmed cases still have the virus or have some recovered?
I seem to remember the so called "super carrier" leaving hospital but don't recall hearing anything about the Yorkshire student (Britain's patient X) and his mother.
Do all 53 confirmed cases still have the virus or have some recovered?
According to the John Hopkins tracker, only 8 of the 51 confirmed have recovered. Doesn't state who or where the 8 are from.
sorry, just testing
Testing what? That you can still post on here from home if you are forced to leave the office and work from home.:-)
that I can get a signal out from the tiny porthole in my tinfoil tent
TRUMP has solved it. Just use existing flu vaccinations.
https://www.indy100.com/article/coronavirus-trump-vaccine-flu-us-symptoms-9372566
No one knows more about flu and vaccines than he does. Bigly.
According to the John Hopkins tracker, only 8 of the 51 confirmed have recovered. Doesn’t state who or where the 8 are from.
Those 8 were announced when there were only 9 cases in the UK, so all/most from the supercarrier outbreak.
@raybanwomble - agree that there's contradictory info out there which is why I thought those comments were noteworthy. It's also against the earlier post about wuhan cases potentially being worse because of prior exposure to sars. I think it'll be a bit longer before there's a better understanding.
In other news I have a team member who's been in Nepal since early Feb, due back next week. They've just posted to say they have a bad cough and mild flu symptoms. I've told them not to come in until they've been told they can by someone official - nepals apparently clear at the moment but with the greatest respect to the Nepalese I'm not sure their health system will be doing a great job in the areas where they were.
But it’s interesting that health professionals are not yet seemingly reacting with caution when presented with headache, chesty cough, raised temperature…
We see these everyday so without a travel or contact history plus a patient with a history of these symptoms before there is no need.
oh goody. text from my mum: my daughter has been rushed to hospital this morning with a temperature, blue lips and breathing difficulties. They've told her to bugger off home as she may have corona virus. she's 21 months old.
I'm stuck in tromso until Friday, curently awaiting further news from home. frikkin wonderful.
The Daily Bail is going full on 28 Days Later with this story.
Apparently we'll be stopped from going to the pub and eating out.
I'm gonna get myself a fancy dress astronaut suit so I can go to Nando's
with no risk to myself and others.
If we talking about survival rates contra mortality; I'd be worried.
Hope she gets sorted Hot_Fiat that’s shit news.
The main job the Daily Heil seems to have is winding up gammmons who seem to enjoy being wound up so much they continue to buy the paper that winds them up in the first place. As usual, best not to pay attention.
And fingers crossed hot_fiat
make your own hand sanitizer
100 ml glass spray bottle
60ml witch hazel (sold in Tesco pharmacy for around £2 per bottle)
15 drops lemongrass essential oil (Ebay)
15 drops lavender essential oil (Ebay)
1 teaspoon vitamin E oil (optional (Ebay)
40 ml cooled boiled water
If using vitamin E oil then add first to bottle before adding essential oils. Next add witch hazel and cooled boiled water.
Before using shake bottle well. Spray then rub hands together until dry.
Cheaper version;
spray bottle
meths
make your own hand sanitizer
you mean make your own pointless smelly liquid that will not sanitise anything. Guff like this belongs on the pages of "Take A Break"
100 ml glass spray bottle
60ml witch hazel (sold in Tesco pharmacy for around £2 per bottle)
15 drops lemongrass essential oil (Ebay)
15 drops lavender essential oil (Ebay)
1 teaspoon vitamin E oil (optional (Ebay)
40 ml cooled boiled water
This is a good way to die. None of those ingredients are active against viruses.
70/30 ethanol followed by moisturizer if you can't get alcohol based hand sanitizer.
100 ml glass spray bottle
60ml witch hazel (sold in Tesco pharmacy for around £2 per bottle)
15 drops lemongrass essential oil (Ebay)
15 drops lavender essential oil (Ebay)
1 teaspoon vitamin E oil (optional (Ebay)
40 ml cooled boiled wate
More out of idle curiosity than anything but is there any evidence that is effective in killing* the virus.
*do you kill a virus given it probably isn't "alive" in the strict sense? Maybe de-activate or de-nature?
This is a good way to die. None of those ingredients are active against viruses.
you might as well rub your hands with a crystal
you might as well rub your hands with a crystal
And pray to some neopagan god.
Buy some off eBay...
More out of idle curiosity than anything but is there any evidence that is effective in killing* the virus
Yes, if you believe Wiki and almost every other source on the internet (unless you have rabies):
alcohol-based hand sanitizer is more convenient compared to hand washing with soap and water in most situations in the healthcare setting.[3] It is generally more effective at killing microorganisms and better tolerated than soap and water.[5] Hand washing should still be carried out if contamination can be seen or following the use of the toilet.[6]
Hand sanitizer that contains at least 60 % alcohol or contains a "persistent antiseptic" should be used.[17][18] Alcohol rubs kill many different kinds of bacteria, including antibiotic resistant bacteria and TB bacteria. 90% alcohol rubs are highly flammable, but kill many kinds of viruses, including enveloped viruses such as the flu virus, the common cold virus, and HIV, though is notably ineffective against the rabies virus.[19][20][21]
90% alcohol rubs are more effective against viruses than most other forms of hand washing.[22] Isopropyl alcohol will kill 99.99 % or more of all non-spore forming bacteria in less than 30 seconds, both in the laboratory and on human skin
Unless you're washing your hands properly, doesn't matter what you use
There's a reason we spray everything down with 70/30 ethanol klericide in the labs....
Certain virsuses are resistant to 70/30 though and require 90-95 percent sprays, which is why we use multiple types of sanitizers.
bloody hell, looking at how many they've sold, they've made some serious profit there!! Kind of goes against the email I got from eBay yesterday saying that profiteering will not be tolerated and listings would be cancelled/accounts suspended...Buy some off eBay…
For example, for anyone that is vaguely interested, entertainingly it turns out that Mountain Dew is more effective against Rhinovirus than 70/30
https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1153&context=biology_posters
Does it have to be stronger than 60% alcohol or will a weaker solution do?
I was thinking of buying a couple of litres of cheap Vodka and trying to put it through on expenses 🙂
If it has to be over 60, I'd have to be buying cask strength whisky or Absinthe!
If it has to be over 60, I’d have to be buying cask strength whisky or Absinthe!
Or this...
https://www.thewhiskyexchange.com/p/15105/spirytus-rektyfikowany-rectified-spirit-95-polmos
My skin reacts quite badly to most hand sanitizers and liquid soaps. Looks like I best stock up on gloves even more than normal.
Still best to sanitize the gloves before you remove them or touch any door handles at home. If you really have to go that far.
Does it have to be stronger than 60% alcohol
Yes.
Buy IPA, it is anywhere up to 99% ethyl alcohol. Or meths, at 90% ethyl alcohol. Both available on fleabay. Both will kill anything nasty.
There's a reason the peasants used to drink small beer instead of water...
you mean make your own pointless smelly liquid that will not sanitise anything. Guff like this belongs on the pages of “Take A Break”
This is for use when out and about and you're not able to wash your hands with soap and water. In this case both of those essential oils have antibacterial properties. Ideal for carrying in your handbag/manbag/Camelbak etc.
And just to inform you, I gave up wimminz magazines decades ago.
Mountain Dew is more effective against Rhinovirus than 70/30
I wonder how mountain Dew compares to 20/20, not sure about covid but that certainly seemed to be good for herpes simplex back in the day.
Methylated can be nasty stuff, with methanol added - which is highly toxic and not something you really want to be rubbing on your hands. Avoid.
And just for you rayban sweetie.
fair point
Coronavirus isn't bacteria.
An active ingredient that has only been shown to have antibacterial properties won't work on it.
"antibacterial properties", maybe obvious, but coronavirus not a bacteria. Any (non hokey) research conclusively showing it kills coronavirus? Great, until then, it's voodoo.
edit: beaten to it
rayban has a valid point...
IPA might be a good shout. Not as toxic as methanol. Available a thigh percentages without the duty of ethanol.
I've got alcohol gel in any case.
I'm going to go an stock up on E45 to sell on to all the dermatitis sufferers we'll have in a few weeks.
fair point
IPA is a good shout though if you're going down the ghetto hand sanitisation route, as it's less drying.
Anyway, what draw weight crossbow for fighting off half starved deranged Londoners? A 50lb hand crossbow (which I assume is quick to reload) or a 200lb monster that will put a bolt through a car door? 😀
Where have I said that it would protect against the coronavirus? This is ideal for, say, you're pushing a trolley with handles around the supermarket then putting goods on the conveyer belt, touching the card reader. Then you head to the petrol station, perhaps pick up a sarnie, then again touching the card reader when entering your pin.
Think how many times you're touching surfaces, door handles, lift buttons, card reader buttons etc where thousands of others have done the same. Some folk including wimminz don't wash their hands after using the loo, hell some people don't even know what basic hygiene is full stop.
So what would you suggest, you being a scientist and all?
cinnamon_girl
Subscriber
Where have I said that it would protect against the coronavirus? This is ideal for, say, you’re pushing a trolley with handles around the supermarket then putting goods on the conveyer belt, touching the card reader. Then you head to the petrol station, perhaps pick up a sarnie, then again touching the card reader when entering your pin.
Think how many times you’re touching surfaces, door handles, lift buttons, card reader buttons etc where thousands of others have done the same. Some folk including wimminz don’t wash their hands after using the loo, hell some people don’t even know what basic hygiene is full stop.
So what would you suggest, you being a scientist and all?
This is a thread about coronavirus. Why would you post that without understanding that you're implying it's effective against Coronavirus? Let's assume that what you say now, is what you meant earlier, where's the data that shows that concoction is effective against bacteria? What is the required exposure time for your concoction for it to be effective?
I was supposed to be in NYC today and tomorrow and then on West Coast later this month. I had cancelled as I got the flu a couple of weeks ago almost to the day and a still weak as a kitten and coughing so decided that avoiding a plane was not a bad idea ! Now all non essential travel is cancelled both domestic and international, perfect, means I don't have to go to London - woo hoo! WFH is going well as means I can supervise builders, listen to Spotify and , erm, surf the net.
UK cases up 35 in a day to 85
Buy IPA, it is anywhere up to 99% ethyl alcohol. Or meths, at 90% ethyl alcohol.
IPA is propanol (the clue's in the name, Isopropyl alcohol or propan-2-ol to give it it's proper name).
Methylated can be nasty stuff, with methanol added – which is highly toxic and not something you really want to be rubbing on your hands. Avoid.
I don't think meths has significant* amounts of methanol in it anymore precisely because desperate people would still drink it, it's just an impure ethanol with bitrex and purple dye.
*i.e. it's not added, there's probably some, just like some contains quite a lot of hydrocarbons.
Not implying that and apologies for the confusion. Am seeing it as useful when out and about if soap and water isn't available as a means of minimising any passing on of germs. Appreciate that, for example, travelling on overcrowded tube trains is another ball game that's fraught with risks. Can certainly understand why people are wearing masks although they offer variable degrees of protection it would seem. Is this something that you would do or indeed what precautions do you take, think you're London based?
I suspect big national companies like my employer that rely on "cheap unskilled drones" to bring in the $$$$ won't give two hoots about changing their standard illness policy for COVID19 until an employee dies.
Having unusually phoned in on Monday due to my symptoms wasting my weekend off work (but nobody picking up phone so I left a jumbled message due to how bad I felt), not one manager has approached me at work over the past two days to discuss my symptoms, where I've ended up feeling worse during each shift than how I've felt each morning before reluctantly heading in.
If a postie comes down with the real deal and comes into work, not only will they risk contaminating their fellow ~100+ colleagues in that day, but they also risk infecting ~600+ addresses just on their own delivery each day.
Not implying that and apologies for the confusion. Am seeing it as useful when out and about if soap and water isn’t available as a means of minimising any passing on of germs. Appreciate that, for example, travelling on overcrowded tube trains is another ball game that’s fraught with risks. Can certainly understand why people are wearing masks although they offer variable degrees of protection it would seem. Is this something that you would do or indeed what precautions do you take, think you’re London based?
I would use FFP3 facemask on the tube if I could actually get some for a sane price to 1) limit the spread of the disease if I was unknowingly asymptotic but infectious 2) stop myself from touching my face.
I believe they offer a limited amount of protection from coughed droplets - but this is spread through the eyes as well.
Every little helps.
The better home made one is (better in that it may actually work)
70% vodka
29% aloe vera
1% essential oils (it has to smell nice)
Still best to sanitize the gloves before you remove them or touch any door handles at home. If you really have to go that far.
True, much easier on my skin though. I often wear gloves when I'm working to keep oil etc off my hands (Fire Protection Systems), so not a great leap to put them on entering and leaving site rather than just when I start work.
The better home made one is (better in that it may actually work)
70% vodka
I read you need about 60% alcohol content to make it effective.
70% vodka would make around 30% alcohol.
IPA is propanol
yes, oops, having a concurrent conversation at work on same topic = failure to multitask.
I read denatured ethyl alcohol is effective against more virus types than IPA but both are effective for coronavirus types.
Also read at 70% conc it is most effective for sanitising, but, IANA chemist (nos surprise).
A friend has just booked flights to finale for mid March. He says the trails will be quiet. Selfish knob or clever boy . YOU decide....
Is finale covered on the fco travel list, or, any other than the USA one? (to my haven't-bothered-to-look knowledge
, no)
"clever"? No. selfish? No.
Just carrying on as normal. If anything, given the impact on tourism I'd imagine local people will be glad to see him so possibly community spirited.
If it does turn up on the list and he doesn't cancel, yeah, selfish.
Is there a UK map showing current case locations?
If you really must do ghetto hand sanitizer here are the WHO formulations for in field production
And here is a document/SOP that covers proper hand washing technique, this is probably the single most useful thing you can read if you’re non healthcare personnel. It’s simple, requires little extra effort and zero cost and will actually help.
My uncle and his partner set sail from Southampton yesterday for a nice cruise around the med. Think I will be giving them a wide berth for a few weeks when they get back
Certain virsuses are resistant to 70/30
Would it be more effective if you took some internally? Say at maybe 40%?
Only Wife's off shopping and if she cant get any hand stuff, I was thinking of suggesting a compromise alternative.
Edit. Ah. Apologies. Bin Dun.
So I was chatting to a guy at the weekend who it turns out he was just back from Iran... he had been (I assume since this was "work" related) tested, but does this show up pre-symptoms in the tests? He had only been back a week or so.
Should I raise my worry level from meh to hmmm?
Am I going to die from the bad kind of cat aids?
Should I go and hug as many members of the Tory Party as possible just on the off chance???
Would it be more effective if you took some internally? Say at maybe 40%?
Only Wife’s off shopping and if she cant get any hand stuff, I was thinking of suggesting a compromise alternative.
Edit. Ah. Apologies. Bin Dun.
I would say copious amounts of booze is absolutely necessary if you feel fine but have to be locked up for two weeks. 🙂
lol at the naturuopathy above.
sounds as effective as the masks....... most of which ive seen are badly fitted or largely covering only the mouth.
Just back from Bologna.
We had some good food , Lots of beer and wine , Lots of crack with the locals who were glad to see us because all the tourists stopped coming ! - we met one other tourist the whole time - and she was an American who had come alone because all her friends had bailed because of the scare!
Piazza Maggiore was DEAD - ken block could have done gymkhanna blindfolded and not hit a soul. - unusual.
Work knew i was going , tried to say i shouldnt , when i asked them to pay for the incurred costs as my travel insurance didnt cover declination to travel - they backed down.
then when i got back telling me to go to the GP and get a letter of clearance..... I quoted chapter and verse from the 111 guidance and screenshotted the output from taking their quiz - as well as checking my temp with the in ear thermometer.
Too much knee jerk reaction here.
So I don't know if this has been discussed in the other 25 pages but why the mass hysteria? We've had SARS, swine flu, bird flu and ebola issues in the last 20 years and I don't remember them getting as much news coverage.
Based on the mortality rate and profile I'm not worrying about it for myself, different issue with my 72 year old dad with a dodgy chest though.
So is it just the media brewing up a storm or putting my paranoid hat on is it much worse than we're being told?
You answer your question in your second paragraph. Close to 20% mortality in over 80s (reported), and the government is working on a worst case scenario of an 80% strike rate because of its high transmission, so a large percentage of the population will get it at some point. That's a lot of dead or seriously ill pensioners.
Should we wait a few months then redo the BRexit vote with that demographic thinned out a bit ? Sorry, too early ?
Was going to say, if it does reduce the number of elderly and infirm then the government probably think it's a good thing to reduce the load on health and social care.