What's the hourly rate for a painter decorator?

It's his business, I'm sure he will tell you his rate.

Just let him price the job with a cost he's happy at. If you don't like it just leave it.

Trying to dictate a self employed persons rate isn't going to end well

It’s his business, I’m sure he will tell you his rate.

Just let him price the job with a cost he’s happy at. If you don’t like it just leave it.

Trying to dictate a self employed persons rate isn’t going to end well

Sorry, not that easy. It's really not his business, as it's not a business - just a few hours here and here to keep the wolf from the door in the growing pains of a real business. If the real business needs him he'll drop his paint brush and get on with what he needs to do. And it's not a job - I'll be (have already) started the work and he'll carry it on - and between us we'll get it finished. I just don't have enough daylight hours in my life when the weather is good (it's outside painting) because of my actual job. We'd basically be paying him to accelerate the work using his free time and my free time as we both can manage - he's just got a lot more of it than me currently!

You want an invoice. It is a business.

Trying to make out you're doing him a favour is going to end in disaster.

He gives you price that both are happy with,I don't see what the problem is

Ok, thanks for your help.

Anyone else?

Agree a price for the job, finished. It might be a mistake putting an inexperienced (slower?) decorator on an hourly rate 🙂
That doesn't stop you doing a bit BTW

Difficult one

When I have paid friends to work for me I think " whats the minimum I would do that for?"  I would guess these days ( its invoiced not cash in hand?) in the area of £15 an hour or £120 a day.  A professional tradesman a decent chunk more.  My good friend who installed a central heating system for me invoiced me below his normal rate but still significantly more per hour than I earned at the time.  IIRC £200 a day.

Its got to be a discussion between you both tho to arrive at a number you are both happy with

There is a world of difference between a man turning up to effectively "labour" for you, using your paint, brushes, ladders etc, and a skilled/time served painter/decorator who will have all his own kit, insurances and protocols in place.

As a labourer in Scotland I would guess (hope) somewhere between 12-14£ /hour would not be an insult to anyone.

Friend helping you out? No invoices. Cash in hand. I'll go £12 an hour. I earn that (higher when nightshift) for my part time job and pay income tax and NI on it. So £12 in hand seems OK. He isn't a skilled decorator and can't expect tradesmens rates.

a man turning up to effectively “labour” for you, using your paint, brushes, ladders etc

This basically describes it - only the man is a very very good friend.

Cash in hand vs invoice - it's on our holiday home 2nd business so ideally we'd invoice to offset against tax. Sadly I don't think he'll be earning enough this year to go above the tax allowance threshold if he did invoice.

The living wage is £10.90 an hour.

I would be thinking around £12 - £15 an hour.

I know the plumbers in our area want about £35 - £45 per hour.

Painters a little less.

Tradesmen typically £200 per day upwards on day work. On price they’d want £300 minimum target. These aren’t London prices but are south England prices. If you are looking for an actual hourly rate you need to factor in the set-up and clear-up element as you’ll get more work done in half a day or a full days work rather than the same amount of hours over a week due to this faffage. I’d be looking at £15-20 per hour.

£15 an hour, with an invoice, is very competitive for an experienced commercial painter in the north east and what I’ve just paid. £20 is common, depends on how much work they’ve got on…

it’s on our holiday home 2nd business so ideally we’d invoice to offset against tax.

Invoice? Then £15 a hour. Split the tax saving with your friend.

If he's an ex-tory mp then you might be looking at around £10,000/30 which is £333 day rate approx.

When I worked for a company I was earning national average of £30,000 a year, after tax and national insurance that's £15 an hour. Which is all well and good when you're earning that consistently with the guarantees and certain level of protection that working for a large business offers. However, being self-employed, he will have to pay national insurance, tax, overheads, e.g. materials, fuel etc, etc. and he's work will fluctuate.

Consider when telling him how much you're paying him; does he own a house / flat or pay rent, how much rent does he pay, does he have a swimming pool that he needs to heat, does he eat a lot or not very much, does he live alone or have a partner he'd like to share the bills with, does he have a pet to feed and take to the vets every once in a while, does he own a car that he needs to keep running or does he cycle every where, etc, etc...

My point is everyone's different and it's for him to set the rate and learn from his errors. If it's too low he'll know because he'll become homeless and starve. If it's too high he'll know because you won't want him to work for you. What are you happy to pay? You could always go on Gumtree call a few painters/decorators around to give you a quote (at their cost of course) and then use those quotes as a baseline and then haggle him down or you could simply say to him, "£5 an hour, happy with that? I am your mate after all."

I wouldn't put it as strongly as WilsonTC, but do think his general point is valid. You need to be sure that your perspectives on this aren't opposed:

You:) I'm doing my mate a favour by paying him money do do bits and pieces of unskilled ( vis his skillset) work on my house to help him whilst ge finds his feet.

Him:) He's getting my new ( amazeballs) company in to do this job which he desperately needs doing. But he's not even paying anywhere near the going rate. I'm a bloody professional dontcha know.

The bit about tools is also valid. There's a huge difference in him coming tooled up versus just turning up and using yours.
And when there's problems, are you both agreed on who the gaffer is? If you're paying him as unskilled labour then you can't be complaining at any issues afterwards. You can of course coach him as you go along, if you're confident it represents your relative skill levels.

He’s getting my new ( amazeballs) company in to do this job which he desperately needs doing.

Iirc the work he is doing isn't what his company normally does, he just doing this because he can but he doesnt have particular skills or tools for it

I sort of agree with your post though. My temptation would be to agree a fixed time/price so at no point are you going to be in the position of having to 'fire' them.  Paying mates for work can be disastrous so pick an amount you are happy to lose to keep the friendship.  Make sure you are both happy with the price. 15 sounds ok.

Yes, I know. That is indeed what the OP said, and clearly thinks. But is it what his mate thinks?

There are three views to this: the OP's, his mate's and the actual truth. OP and his mate need to check they've both got aligned views.

Various people posting above have said something like " you don't dictate a rate to a trade, you ask for a quote and then accept it or decline it."

So it's obviously possible for people to take different views

You may want an invoice for tax purposes ( understandable ) as the work is on your business
BUT
I think you should both bare in mind that this may ( emphasise on MAY ) have tax implications for your mate down the line if HMRC put 2 + 2 together
If it’s only going to be a 1 off then cash in hand at a lower rate may be a more mutually beneficial way to go

Him:) He’s getting my new ( amazeballs) company in to do this job which he desperately needs doing. But he’s not even paying anywhere near the going rate. I’m a bloody professional dontcha know.

I see what you are saying, but no! 😃

His new (and it will be Amazeballs) company is in an entirely different industry. Could not be more different if you tried. And the work is not desperate - just ongoing maintenance that could do with doing to maintain the place as and when (weather and free weeks are the limiting factors).

To be clear it's something I'd rather do myself - the helping a mate out element is pretty much the driving factor here.

ask him how much he wants, and give him that.

i have had mates plaster my house throughout, and another mate has refitted my bathroom...twice, and another mate laid me a new drive.
in all 3 occasions i paid them what they asked for.

He's unskilled and un-tooled, min wage or just above

You may want an invoice for tax purposes ( understandable ) as the work is on your business
BUT
I think you should both bare in mind that this may ( emphasise on MAY ) have tax implications for your mate down the line if HMRC put 2 + 2 together
If it’s only going to be a 1 off then cash in hand at a lower rate may be a more mutually beneficial way to go

Ah, the old "taxes are for other people to pay" approach. 🙄

BUT
I think you should both bare in mind that this may ( emphasise on MAY ) have tax implications for your mate down the line if HMRC put 2 + 2 together
If it’s only going to be a 1 off then cash in hand at a lower rate may be a more mutually beneficial way to go

He'll be submitting a self assessment as a sole trader in the new business anyway. But with the outlay he's made already to get himself kitted up, there will be precious little profit this year I fear.

One of my best friends has been a decorator since leaving school (almost 40 years). He runs his own small business and also does building work. He arrives in a van and has all the gear required (obviously). He works hard and does a great job. You certainly don't have to coach or guide him!

He charges £30 an hour. He reduces this to £20 an hour if you've known him for at least 40 years.

One of my neighbours is a painter and decorator and charges £150 per day, plus materials and a tool allowance of (I think) £20 per job. However, he's retired and only works as long as he needs to fund his winters in Brazil.

Working with friends is always problematic. Do you ever do it for your friends? How would you expect to be treated?
We have a house that requires bonkers amounts of input. I have employed one friend regularly but we are ultra clear about everything. My general advice is don't do it if you can avoid it.
There are mates who just help me lift stuff when they're here and get unrestricted access to the biscuit tin for the 10 minutes help they gave. Others pop over for the day and we go to the pub at the end of the day and have a few with a steak or I pay for the Travelodge next time we're away riding. If you hand over cash you are putting a value on their friendship as much as the job so it must be fair.

But from the way I read this if you want an invoice things must be ultra clear from the get go. Helping someone is laudable but separate friendship and business. Agree the job/expectations/time frames/materials including whose collecting them/travel etc. £20 an hour if they provide their own tools, £18 if they don't and point out the tax issues as said above.