MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
The other thing we have to do is stop harping on about bloody brexit.
Why?
Look to the treatment of the red clydesiders and the peterloo massacre to see what the states response would be. Massive deployment of the army to quell the slightest dissent.
It won’t take many people not being able to afford a treat or something to which they are accustomed to really start to annoy people.
Remember, this is a country containing people who rang 999 when their local KFC ran out of chicken.
"The other thing we have to do is stop harping on about bloody brexit.."
Not a chance. Every time the tories or anyone else tries to claim brexit is not a huge problem they need to be corrected loudly and clearly.
I will NEVER forgive them for the huge damaged caused and will NEVER shut up about it.
Look to the treatment of the red clydesiders and the peterloo massacre to see what the states response would be.
The Peterloo massacre was quite a long time ago...!!
Massive deployment of the army to quell the slightest dissent.
And the closure of the radical Manchester Observer which was replaced by the ruling-class friendly Manchester Guardian - whose mission was to neutralised radical anger. A founding aim which the Guardian newspaper maintains to this day.
I'm affraid us "Remoaners" are never going to stop harping on, it was a significant event it's fallout is still ongoing and looks like it's going to carry on damaging the country for a while yet.
But I will acknowledge there are other factors at play now, the current COL crisis triggered by events in Ukraine but also due to long standing underinvestment in our energy sector weakened unions and long term real term wage freezes.
We already had a growing gulf between rich and poor and worse yet the "working poor" trapped on poor pay/benefits with escalating living costs and no way to break the cycle let alone buy a home or build savings...
Being told by some bumbling old Etonian prick to buy a new kettle to save a tenner when being faced with the pointy end of a £3.5k energy bill must be utterly galling for huge swathes of the population, no matter what they voted for over the last decade or so.
The 'revolution' won't be particularly violent or scary though, by necessary increments certain aspects of our country and culture will have to change.
Massive deployment of the army to quell the slightest dissent.
I believe this is the traditional response when a government faces being overthrown, whether they are tyrants or democratically elected
It's due to rain this weekend so that's put pay to rioting in the streets...
Yea but look at the disproportionate police response to any demo in london. Illegal snatches and kettling and violence towards peaceful protest.
Illegal snatches and kettling
Ah is that what Johnson was on about?
"I believe this is the traditional response when a government faces being overthrown, whether they are tyrants or democratically elected"
Where was the US Army on Jan 6th last year?
What would a british revolution look like?
Revolution!? LOL!
Forget that coz nobody is interested in those nonsense revolution nowadays. The good old days of revolution is gone.
Much prefer looting ... grab some electronic goods, mobile phones, TVs, designer bags etc.
Don't be so dismissive Chewy, you could read that sort of crap in the NotW and it just serves to encourage cynicism and defeatism. Maybe you lack class consciousness and analysis, never been in a union, never been on strike. That's all ok but you'd be well advised to shut up and learn from others.
Would it stop for tea at 11?
Proper sit down tea with cake
No chance, we're not roadies.
Tea is " a drink with jam and bread" and happens at 4pm. 11 o'clock tea and scones is elevensies. Are you even british?
Don’t be so dismissive Chewy, you could read that sort of crap in the NotW and it just serves to encourage cynicism and defeatism. Maybe you lack class consciousness and analysis, never been in a union, never been on strike. That’s all ok but you’d be well advised to shut up and learn from others.
LOL! What is the revolution about?
My die hard communist/Marxist colleague talks about revolution all the time. Yes, he is on all the strikes, very active etc. Another one is a Labour die hard supporter and spending his retirement days plotting to overthrown the govt etc. LOL! As far as we know his revolution is to agitate the local council which we never objected to because he is good at it. LOL! Yes, he hates all things Tory or any right wing stuff.
Would it stop for tea at 11?
Proper sit down tea with cake
Must have tea at 11am otherwise it's abuse of power. LOL!
Cake too! I prefer walnut or banana cake.
Anyway, if you want to have a revolution then go for it. LOL! So long as I get to cook my bbq.
Where was the US Army on Jan 6th last year?
Doing what the democratically elected President of the day ordered them to do, which was nothing.
Last election, best I can tell young middle class types voted for Corbyn’s Labour, while the working classes tended to vote for Boris’s Tory / Brexit party.
So Dazh, I just think you are wrong. Everything you say makes sense except reality swans off in another direction and logic isn’t worth a thing.
And because of the way the Brexies handled their win, the country will be divided on the issue for a decade or two yet. Minimum.
Ahh, I see our Chewkwbhas joined us.
I was meaning to ask if you had visited any of the Festival of Brexit stuff and whether you would recommend it?
I know it’s a long shot, but I can’t think of any one else who might visit it to give me a first hand opinion.
If you want to start a revolution you need to un-educate a segment of the society first otherwise how are you going to brainwash them into obeying your command? They are just going to run around looting for lifestyle goods. The educated ones will never get their hands dirty because they are too intelligent to do so and you need someone to get the job done. At the moment most of the "un-educated" ones are only interested in lifestyle goods and getting famous with loads of money. How on earth are you going to convince them? LOL! Loads of money revolution?
That's why Dear Leader Mao eliminating the "intelligent" ones first. You are educated? You are the first to go. LOL! One of my granduncle was sent to siberia "herding goats". He survived because he used cigarette as currency.
Revowhat? Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way
People change their consciousness by force of circumstances. Whatever they voted previously doesn't predetermine next time round. Even the most confused, racist, lumpen, subservient numbskull is likely to feel a nasty tweak from the Tories' policies.
People change their consciousness by force of circumstances.
They will just loot as an easy way out. Bling! Bling! is all they want. Revolution for them is a headache because it requires thinking. No bling bling so how is that cool? So what you are going to do? Well, you can set example by ... yes, public elimination by force. Otherwise they will just laugh at you. We are in iPhone 13 Pro generation you know. Also, you need a charismatic cult leader ...
Maybe you haven't noticed but all sorts of workers are going on strike and proposing to do so. They are not planning to go down the street attacking shops. They deserve your support, if you fail in that respect you are on the other side. Do try and think about it, this is serious.
Bill - don't engage with chewy; he's only having a laugh so best not to encourage him.
Maybe you haven’t noticed but all sorts of workers are going on strike and proposing to do so. They are not planning to go down the street attacking shops. They deserve your support, if you fail in that respect you are on the other side. Do try and think about it, this is serious.
I think the trouble with most strikes is people perceive the strikers to be in a good spot. Anyone working on the railways? £60k for pressing go. Teachers? Home by 3, half the year off. Doctors? Barristers? loadsamoney..
I know this isn't the case, but it erodes support really quickly. as an aside, can you really "support" most strikes? The services are simply unavailable, so I'm not sure what I (as a potential consumer of them) could do?
Bill – don’t engage with chewy; he’s only having a laugh so best not to encourage him.
Oh c'mon ... It's Friday.
As one of my colleague said, they had not thought through the operation carefully. LOL!
Are you even british?
Have a plus one from me TJ.
Regarding revolution when the dockers at Felixstowe are getting bolshy it's time to worry. They wouldn't strike in the 90's because it would affect their bonuses! Ms Truss or Mr Sunak are notice from the lads at Felixstowe and need to get a grip quickly once elected..
Scotland getting independence.
Yep, but you need to be out there a) knowing the situation and b) arguing the case.
There's a largely unreported crisis in teacher recruitment and a bit better reported doctors leaving the service, perceptions are formed by the MM and reinforced by (some) r soles. We've got three kids working in the NHS and one teacher, all are struggling.
Yep, but you need to be out there ..."
What does the end game look like exactly?
Otherwise, what you have is just a "revolution" in name only but nothing change or not permanent. Remember, unless you get rid of democracy there is no guarantee your revolution will last without bling bling.
Don't evolve, revolve..
Even the most confused, racist, lumpen, subservient numbskull is likely to feel a nasty tweak from the Tories’ policies.
Except they are constantly told by the "news" sources that its not the Tories fault, its the immigrants, EU, benefit scroungers, greedy workers in the public sector, fat cat bosses who don't donate to the Tories....
Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way
I know what album I’m putting on now…
We don't need a revolution - just a left-wing Labour party that Centrists won't spend all their effing time working against, and then complaining when a Tory government doesn't deliver.
The shock, the suprise - look what the Tories have done now.
Don't vote for market driven economies of essential services and utilities.
What would a british revolution look like?
Complaining about people in prison getting free heating
@rone As I said to Dazh, the educated middle classes might vote for a left wing Labour Party, but the working classes won’t. At least not in sufficient numbers.
Perhaps they should, and maybe they will in “traditional” Labour seats, but nationally and in swing seats they won’t.
the educated middle classes might vote for a left wing Labour Party, but the working classes won’t.
The working class won’t vote labour because labour doesn’t offer them anything.
Perhaps.
Except reduced poverty levels, particularly child poverty. Oh and trade arrangements that meant their employment prospects were better. And I’m sure the increased investment in early education was in their interests too.
So they voted for the extreme right (British standards applied) to try and reverse the above that they really didn’t like.
The left wing of Labour might have hated Blair and Brown, and perhaps they didn’t do as much as I wanted them to do, but they did a lot for the less-advantaged in society. Admittedly without deliberately harming the more-advantaged - but I’m not into trashing the advantaged just because they’re advantaged, so I’m ok with that.
To answer the OP - Lots of queuing and tutting.
Except reduced poverty levels, particularly child poverty.
Vote for us and your kids won’t starve. What an offer! Is it any wonder they turn to snake oil populists when all the liberal left can offer is the minimum of support and help?
Admittedly without deliberately harming the more-advantaged
No one wants to harm them, just tax them fairly.
Vote for us and your kids won’t starve. What an offer!
So vote for people who will let your kids starve. Makes sense to me.
So vote for people who will let your kids starve.
Expecting people to vote for you by default and taking them for granted will result in the opposite. Especially when the opposition promise the earth and use emotional dog whistles. Labour are idiots. The liberal middle class left are idiots.
You want the working class to vote labour? Then stop whingeing about brexit. Stop patronising them, stop looking down on them, and give them something to vote for which will actually make a difference.
Perhaps (checks polls) the current leadership team have a better idea about what people want than you do? Perhaps the people you claim everyone else is patronising in an idiotic way don’t want what you want? Just a thought.
The one thing Labour do share with you is avoiding any negative talk about the effect of Brexit.
Anyway, they’ll be no revolution. Hopefully there will be a change of direction for the country come the next election. Will it be everything you want? No chance, because that isn’t what enough voters want.
Perhaps the people you claim everyone else is patronising in an idiotic way don’t want what you want?
Pretty sure I have as good a handle on what working class people want as anyone. It’s a lot more than being content with your kids not going hungry, I know that much.
The working class won’t vote labour because labour doesn’t offer them anything.
Or, more likely, the right wing press tells them that labour have nothing to offer them.
Or, more likely, the right wing press tells them that labour have nothing to offer them
This is the biggest problem any political party that’s not the Tories faces.
Labour are idiots. The liberal middle class left are idiots.
You want the working class to vote labour? Then stop whingeing about brexit.
If the working class are choosing to vote Tory because some people don't rate Brexit then they're even bigger idiots than the other two groups.
But regarding IGMs point, if the working classes aren't voting Labour then we need to ask what Labour is really doing and who they think they're representing. It could be said they lost them to Thatcher in the 80s and have never really won them back.
The average citizen in the UK isn't going to join a "revolution". They know there are no benefits.
Someone mentioned Poll Tax. That was pretty much one street and a load of high end car dealerships getting smashed up and a load of disgruntled people who couldn't get HP at Comet on a new washing machine because they didn't pay it.
Stop the War had a load of leadership in with Corbyn, and groups directed/funded by the enemies of democracy (exaggerating? there were some right dodgy people at many meetings around these individuals) who just wanted to sow discord, still do. Stop the War, Counterfire, etc. No wonder the government didn't take notice, especially since the goal was to break OPEC's back (failed).
Hard-left SP members think protests on the street make a difference. Start watching the groups that organize them. Different group names, same faces. Watch the violence. Not sure if these guys simply missed out on being football hooligans. Openly extolling the virtue of violence against police and opposing parties at their planning meetings. And then other faces redirecting marches that weren't part of planning or police liason.
BTW, plenty of highly educated communist party members over here behind the red curtain. You don't just send everyone wearing glasses to work on the farms and make a problem go away. Human nature, selfish behaviour, and people getting their kicks from watching people who judge you, or earn more than you, get disciplined unnaturally is the order of the game. It's all so illogical.
The only charismatic leader we've seen in years was Boris. I expect him back when the party demonstrates they only have managers, simply don't have adequate leaders.
You want the working class to vote labour? Then stop whingeing about brexit.
That's what Labour are doing, and have done since the vote, but all it does is piss off remainers - see this forum.
stop whingeing about brexit
Most of the whinging about Brexit these days seems to be by Brexies.
The pro-Britain anti-Brexit types are getting what they expected - nothing more, nothing less, and they aren’t whinging.
A revolution in thinking would be most welcome.
As for what might happen on the streets - civil unrest is increasingly likely, I think.
If truss (or sunak - who he?) fails to deliver significant, widespread and immediate financial support to individuals, families and SMEs she will be inviting mass protests at least with the likelihood of them escalating.
The working class won’t vote labour because labour doesn’t offer them anything.
Or, more likely, the right wing press tells them that labour have nothing to offer them.
I think you might have an exaggerated view of how much working-class people rely on newspapers to provide them with political news.
Somewhere in the region of 80% of working-class people rely on television as their main source of news.
Newspapers which working-class people tend to buy have far less political content than those favoured by educated professional classes.
Furthermore working-class readers have a high tendancy to skip political articles as they read their newspapers, which is the reason why they contain less political articles in the first place.
Most working-class people don't buy a newspaper and the ones that do tend to buy them for a quick frivolous read during a tea/lunch break. A little bit of light reading with vaguely amusing puns about strange and unusual incidents and mundane celebrity nonsense.
Unlike educated professional people working-class people don't tend to take their preferred newspapers seriously and have a very healthy cynical attitude towards them. Most of their political opinions will be formed when they are sitting in front of a television in the evening.
Yes correct ernie. But what sets the agenda for tv news? Right wing newspapers. So the neutrality of the tv news is actually the midpoint of the newspapers which is way to the right of centre and very anti labour
Telly? Newspapers? Bit 20th century innit chaps? Get with the programme grandad! 😂
Surely if Brexit and the last election taught us anything it’s that loads of people are getting their news* exclusively via social meedya
* the word ‘news’ is used figuratively in this instance and doesn’t imply any factual content in this Wild West unregulated space, ripe for exploitation by unscrupulous liars like Dominic Cummings and Boris Johnson
Telly? Newspapers? Bit 20th century innit chaps? Get with the programme grandad! 😂
Says the man who is probably the only one on this thread who still goes out and buys a printed newspaper! Or do you get a newspaper boy to deliver it?
.
Surely if Brexit and the last election taught us anything it’s that loads of people are getting their news* exclusively via social meedya
You don't need to go on hunches, Ofcom provide detailed breakdown of how people obtain their news, it's mostly through television. If you think working-class people waste their time getting their news from social media you are mistaken.
Or, more likely, the right wing press tells them that labour have nothing to offer them.
See my point above about not patronising them. The working class are more than capable of forming their own opinions based on their life experience and observations. Yes the media has an influence, but it’s not nearly as much as you think.
Ask working class people what they think about politicians and they’ll all give the same answer, and are exactly right in that analysis. You don’t need me to tell you what it is, and until that changes, not many will want to vote for them.
Surely if Brexit and the last election taught us anything it’s that loads of people are getting their news* exclusively via social meedya
You only have to look at the latest Kettlegate saga to see that in action.
A couple of sentences being shown in a different context to how they were actually said, goes viral , and the hard of thinking just lap it up as gospel.
Says the man who is probably the only one on this thread who still goes out and buys a printed newspaper! Or do you get a newspaper boy to deliver it?
As a 50-odd year old giffer I know how wildly unrepresentative this makes me. And I have my butler bring it up to me in the morning with my warmed slippers and Earl Grey 😂
Ofcom provide detailed breakdown of how people obtain their news, it’s mostly through television
Ofcom are monitoring all the click-throughs from Instagram, Friendface, ****ter and Tik Tok now, are they?
Old duffers like us think of ‘news’ as a half hour programme fronted by a man in a suit, for a lot of people it’s a 30 second YouTube clip reached off a (probably paid) clickbait link on Facebook
Nobody knew this more than Dominic Cummings, who successfully weaponised it
We need to redefine the word ‘news’ in an age of totally unregulated ‘content’
Ofcom are monitoring all the click-throughs from Instagram, Friendface, ****ter and Tik Tok now, are they?
No Ofcom presumably do it by carrying out research and asking people what their main news source is. The conclusion they have come to is that television is the most popular source.
How have you come to your conclusion that 'social media' is a more important source of news for working-class people than television, which you apparently dismiss as '20th century'?
Can we stop trying to treat a whole “class” as being homogenous? It’ll all be very age dependent, obviously. That applies to media consumption, voting patterns, likelihood to protest… pretty much everything. Just like all other “classes”.
The point that “the papers” help set the narrative for both TV and Social Media is a key one not to skip past. I know people who get all their news from Facebook, but TV news still makes up the bulk of that (shared BBC, Sky, C4news posts on FB etc), which in turn report heavily on stories picked up on by Newspapers, often echoing the slant they put on those stories.
You don’t escape the agenda setting of newspapers by not reading them.
Ask working class people what they think about politicians and they’ll all give the same answer, and are exactly right in that analysis.
What I hear a lot from working class people is that the Labour Party is for foreigners and welfare scroungers.
I don't think their analysis is right about that?
I also hear that the Labour Party doesn't represent the working man anymore ( I think they mean the 'white' working man, - see above )
They were offered a manifesto that stood firmly behind the working man in 2017 and arguably again in 2019 and they rejected it - 2017s high vote share or not, they failed to win power.
Don't get me wrong, I want Labour to offer policies that help working people, re-nationalise the things that people need without choice and re-invest in the country after 12 years of it being run into the ground - but the idea that all Labour have to do is offer 'policies that help the working man' is for the birds.
You don’t escape the agenda setting of newspapers by not reading them.
That is a completely different argument. This was the claim that was made:
the right wing press tells them that labour have nothing to offer them.
I believe that there is an exaggerated view of how much working-class people rely on newspapers to provide them with political news.
Most working-class people rely on the television for serious news and use newspapers, if they bother at all, for light entertainment purposes.
You don’t have to read newspapers to have their repeated messaging infiltrate nearly all the news content you consume. And the idea that reading newspapers primarily for social and cultural content means that you’re unexposed to their political slant is, well, flawed.
What I hear a lot from working class people is that the Labour Party is for foreigners and welfare scroungers
Indeed. And I also hear lots of middle class commentators telling us that the majority of people are in favour of renationalising everything. Well… yeah, right up until the point they get to vote for it, whereupon they go reject it and vote for the ‘less immigrants’ party instead
You don’t have to read newspapers to have their repeated messaging infiltrate nearly all the news content you consume.
Okay so the television tells them that Labour has nothing to offer. Is that peculiar to working-class people? Since the criticism was specifically aimed at the working-class.
I was in Cornwall last week talking to two guys around 30 who lived there on how it was impossible for them to ever own their own home. Asked them what the solution was as I had no answers. Dead pan immediate reply of burn all houses that are Air B and B year round for a start.
Well… yeah, right up until the point they get to vote for it
Of course it’s got bugger all to with the fact that there were loads of labour MPs and others who spent all their time telling working class voters not to vote labour because it was too left wing.
Meanwhile, back in the real world…
Is that what reality looks like to you binners?
Fifteen Labour MPs have launched a campaign urging voters not to back Jeremy Corbyn at the general election.
The group has put their names to full page adverts in a number of local and regional newspapers in the north of England.
The advert, which will be seen by voters in a number of key Labour seats being targeted by the Tories, says: “Everyone wants a safer, fairer society. But in this election the Labour Party is set to deliver the opposite.
"We were all lifelong Labour voters and all former Labour MPs. We are voting for different parties at this election, but we have all come to the difficult decision not to vote Labour.
That was a couple of days before the last general election.
Yes the media has an influence, but it’s not nearly as much as you think.
Balderdash
A 20.year big lie anti eu campaign mainly in right wing newspapers totally changed the uk view of the eu resulting in brexit.
Is that peculiar to working-class people?
No, far from it. I’d say it’s worse with middle class people who still consider the Telegraph a news outlet.
Since the criticism was specifically aimed at the working-class.
Not a criticism of the working class, an observation about how the media landscape in the UK is a barrier to changing social and political attitudes, and also, more specifically, getting a non-Tory government. The problem starts with newspapers. But no one claims it ends there.
I believe that there is an exaggerated view of how much working-class people rely on newspapers to provide them with political news.
Most working-class people rely on the television for serious news and use newspapers, if they bother at all, for light entertainment purposes.
It's just as well!
Fifteen Labour MPs have launched a campaign urging voters not to back Jeremy Corbyn at the general election.
The group has put their names to full page adverts in a number of local and regional newspapers in the north of England.
It's remarkable that Schrodinger's voter a) doesn't read newspapers, and yet b) was swayed by Chuka Umuna and friends in the newspaper, but c) is perfectly capable of forming her own opinion and shouldn't be patronised and Chuka has nothing to do with it, yet somehow d) keeps helplessly voting tory because some people think Brexit is still a live issue.
So, let me get this right…
Labour gifted the Tories an enormous majority at the last election because…
*checks notes*
… a few former Labour MP’s went to the local press to say that Magic Grandad was a bit shit?
Bless you and your delusional lefty comfort blanket
Have you thought about re-engaging with the real world at any point? Granted, it’s a bit shit at the moment, but living in a fantasy world isn’t really healthy in the long term 😂
The default position of most Brits, of all classes, is to mock, to be cynical and to tear down. So anyone proposing something better gets torn to pieces and discredited. Tories don't propose radical change for the better, they don't propose much, which is why they aren't as vulnerable to being torn down. So nothing ends up happening and people vote Tory.
Molgrips
The tories have control of or friends controlling the media thus they don't get questioned in the same way labour and SNP do in the media.
The Tory press have a huge and malign influence. Brexit is a product of this. A 20 year anti eu propaganda campaign