I note lots of people on this thread seem to have opinions/ideas on how various technologies could help address this problem, one primarily created by technology and human behaviours,
I'd respectfully suggest that while there might be a 'tech' angle to consider, the key bit is still the behaviour aspect. add all the black boxes and sensors you like (and with them more potential points of failure?) but fundamentally its the conduct of the autonomous meat sack in the driver's seat that needs adjustment.
Almost every time I venture outside the behaviour aspect on display seems to be a lost cause, you just have to remain vigilant in the douche heavy environment.
Car manufactures (Volvo) are starting to have internal facing cameras that detect it. It'll take time for this to come into fruition and across the board, but it'll happen. Nothing will work until then. And another decade of 'phone use at the wheel' - while not great - is so insignificant on a population-level timescale that it really doesn't matter. It matters to us because we're living through it, but in x number of years it won't be a thing any more (not least because cars will - very likely - be operating quite autonomously).
Change takes a while. We always want everything to happen immediately - the world just doesn't work like that. Legislation and planning is forward-looking. Eg all this green energy etc stuff and national infrastructure (HS2, ETC etc) we're doing now isn't for us, it's for future generations.
Wife’s nephew got a warning phone call off his insurers because his mate had been using his phone to choose some music in the car, and the black box saw that his phone was unlocked while driving – the tech does exist.
I don’t get why black boxes aren’t more widespread.
My daughter's mate has this. She can't sat-nav on her phone while driving as the black box app won't allow it.
I can see teens getting 2 phones, an el-cheapo with the black-box app and their main phone for satnav/music/crossy-road
some new cars can detect if you arent paying attention to the road. thats a catch all for tiredness, phone use, playing with the stereo, tying to spank the kid behind you...
pretty much every car in the last 5+ years (so probably approaching half the cars driven regularly) has carplay/android auto. if people actually used the technology presented to them, maps, texts (read out for you) etc can be done hands free via your car. phone never needs to leave my pocket so no faffing with cradles that detect the phone and so on.
I'd love to see mandatory dashcams including a view of the driver. any accident, footage reviewed, and if you are on your phone, insurance refuses to pay out (3rd party remains, obviously). a few high profile tabloid sob stories about being out of pocket five figures might scare the rest of the population into complying.
Change takes a while. We always want everything to happen immediately – the world just doesn’t work like that. Legislation and planning is forward-looking. Eg all this green energy etc stuff and national infrastructure (HS2, ETC etc) we’re doing now isn’t for us, it’s for future generations.
Thing is, the laws on mobile use while driving were first passed in 2003, that's 21 years ago. So in the space of about one generation the square root of sweet FA has been achieved despite people having the foresight in the early 2000's to try and legislate against the very situation we find ourselves living with today. how many future generations should we expect to pass before this relatively simple issue is finally gripped?
Patience, for all it's virtues, can be a bit overrated at times.
Even if it was technologically possible, how would it affect passengers?
It wouldn’t be difficult to build solutions. We already have detection by cameras from outside a car so think how much easier it would if we had cameras in the car itself. Whole can of worms on privacy but it’s not a technology implementation issue.
How? By filming them on your phone as you drive past?
No obviously...
If you Think long and hard about it, I'm sure you could think of some examples where you don't need to be driving a car yourself to be able to film a driver on their phone....
the black box saw that his phone was unlocked while driving
Colour me sceptical
It's true this happens...
My OH has fannied around with car insurance for her daughter, so that SHE has the black box in her name (which is linked to my OHs phone)
Her daughter was driving the car, my OH was on HER phone, and the insurance company wrote saying if this happens again (phone use whilst driving) they'll cancel the policy..
DrP
Thing is, the laws on mobile use while driving were first passed in 2003, that’s 21 years ago. So in the space of about one generation the square root of sweet FA has been achieved despite people having the foresight in the early 2000’s to try and legislate against the very situation we find ourselves living with today. how many future generations should we expect to pass before this relatively simple issue is finally gripped?
With the incoming tech, the car will safely pull itself over and/or log the incident for insurance purposes. It is coming. Expect it to be prevalent in 10-15 years (which is acceptable/reasonable)
If so, I hope the next gen of electric cars can divert some electrons via a prong built into the seat to alert the driver more…
If you Think long and hard about it, I’m sure you could think of some examples where you don’t need to be driving a car yourself to be able to film a driver on their phone….
Thank you, Captain Obvious.
Point is, if you're monetising joe public to collect evidence of other folk using phones, you'll be encouraging people at least as much as dissuading them. It's not a solution, it's just displacing the problem.
It’s true this happens…
My OH has fannied around with car insurance for her daughter, so that SHE has the black box in her name (which is linked to my OHs phone)
Her daughter was driving the car, my OH was on HER phone, and the insurance company wrote saying if this happens again (phone use whilst driving) they’ll cancel the policy..
Ah, insurance fraud. (-:
I didn't realise there was an app these days, mia culpa. When one of my apprentices passed his test it was an actual physical box installed in the car.
Point is, if you’re monetising joe public to collect evidence of other folk using phones, you’ll be encouraging people at least as much as dissuading them. It’s not a solution, it’s just displacing the problem.
I suppose if you truly are hard of thinking you may think it's a good idea to take a video on your phone and hand it to the police which clearly incriminates you for the same offence..I suggest that wouldn't be the norm...
But I also appreciate you just like to argue and disagree with people on here so fill your boots..
I suggest that wouldn’t be the norm…
I suggest you overestimate people.
you just like to argue and disagree with people
No I don't.
(-:
With the incoming tech, the car will safely pull itself over and/or log the incident for insurance purposes. It is coming. Expect it to be prevalent in 10-15 years (which is acceptable/reasonable)
I'm going to rank this alongside the near constant promises over the last 20 years that self-driving cars will be commonplace "within the next three years".
IIRC this is the accident that shows the family dog dead on the carriageway which always sticks with me. It was posted 2 years ago, people are still on phones. Humans are a failed experiment.
The issue is lack of resources to catch and prosecute them. Do that, enforce the 12 point ban, the message will get across.
In queuing traffic, a helmet cam to get the car reg and the drivers face can then be sent to the Police video sites for review.
Though personally, a small targeted drone missile is also an option. Collateral damage isn't an issue, anyone using their phone whilst driving clearly doesn't give a shit about their passengers.
Cars will be confiscated if they are not insured
I like the idea of phones being confiscated if they are used by a driver.
simsterFull Member
It took years and years of government advertising to change attitudes and behaviour towards drink drinking and seat bet use. A long term advertising campaign could help educate and ‘shame’ the public in to adopting new behaviours.
This is the only real solution to this problem. Make it socially unacceptable.
I have a black box policy which detects phone use and downscores my driving if/when it detects use. Well, I did, after a year of close to perfect scoring they've decided I no longer need the black box. Which is a shame as I quite liked the assessment of my driving. Scary to think how crap you'd have to be in order to get some sort of penalty though. I was typically scored around 90/100 and the threshold for any warning/penalty was 30 IIRC.
Cougar2, we do have driverless trains ??
And driverless cars in US cities.
Cougar2, we do have driverless trains ??
We have the DLR which was specifically built with driverless operation in mind (unlike the London Underground which has been built in various stages from the mid 1860's and with all manner of upgrades and extensions over the decades, the whole thing is a right mish-mash of tech).
However the DLR always requires an operator on board who can take on the driver role at any time - in fact they quite routinely do. The idea that the whole thing can drive itself all day is simply not true.
There are a couple of small self-contained metro systems like the Gatwick monorail shuttle that works driverless but that's a very simple system.
Driverless trains is another thing like driverless cars. The tech could potentially do most of it most of the time but not all of it all of the time. Plus it'd be a wildly expensive upgrade for very limited returns, it's simply not economically viable, Much cheaper to just pay the drivers what they want then to try getting rid of drivers in favour of full auto running.
Christ, that video ^ is a hard watch. Surely watching that would be enough to convince most sane people...
theres never going to be enough police to police the rules effectively - just isnt going to happen. so...
1. a centralised and widely publicised method of uploading video footage of offenders which is processed by AI so that police forces dot get overwhelmed processing it. at the point every other driver, cyclist, pedestrian and ring doorbell is a possible hidden policeman, the risk of being caught becomes real
2. get caught with a phone in your hand and get a 1 month ban with absolutely no exceptions, 2nd offence its a year.
3. professional drivers or delivery drivers - company gets fined a meaningful percentage of their turnover (same as GDPR) this deals with courier companies operating in a way that requires their drivers to drive dangerously in order to make minimum wage
4. same all goes for other "minor" infringements - close passes, speeding, zigzags etc - short ban with no exceptions for everyone.
Ah, insurance fraud. (-:
Yes. Yes it is. And I've tried politely to help her avoid this. But... Independent women be independent,even if it's daft, effing stupid, and illegal.
Sigh.
DrP
I’m late to the party here but are @Cougar and @Cougar2 the same person???
Yes. See the 'issues' sticky. You might need to go back a page or two.
And driverless cars in US cities.
No they don't. It's like three cities and they have automated cars, not autonomous ones. They still require a driver.
Regardless, most of us don't live in the US. Many American cities were manufactured with cars in mind. It's one thing navigating a grid system, another entirely hacking around a British city or a scabby single track road with passing places that we can't yet trust satnavs not to send us down. My car has an automatic parallel park feature, in the 2-3 years I've had it I think it's worked once.
Proper funding for traffic cops and then issue them all with a tiny hammer. Caught using your phone, hammer time! for your phone and a fine and points for you.
I don't agree with 'switch off' tech. I use my phone for voice navigation and playing music through Tidal. It sits in the glovebox or in the drinks holder thingy and I'm never tempted to use it. I ignore most calls and messages when I'm at home, let alone whilst driving.
I see it quite a bit, mainly around town and quite a lot seem to be young women around their early 20s, or tradies in their vans, it's not just phones either, electronic devices are as bad, i think every delivery driver you see is veering about as they check their drop off list and directions rather than the road.
It's just one of many issues on cars, i see a fair few that aren't MoT'd or Taxed, and i'd hazard a guess there's a lot without licenses, fake plates, etc as well, factor in a lot of old folk who shouldn't be near a car anymoe and it's not an easy drive these days!
Caught using your phone, hammer time! for your phone and a fine and points for you.
This is policy in France I believe, for satnavs with speed camera warnings. They make you drive over it. Might be different now in the days of phones for navigation, I don't know.
I don’t agree with ‘switch off’ tech. I use my phone for voice navigation and playing music through Tidal. It sits in the glovebox or in the drinks holder thingy and I’m never tempted to use it. I ignore most calls and messages when I’m at home, let alone whilst driving.
I don't disagree, I have Android Auto for mapping, Spotify, audiobooks, podcasts. It'll read out text messages and ask me if I want to (verbally) send a reply. None of this requires me to touch the handset, it's little different from changing radio channels. But I'll wager that almost everyone will justify their usage to themselves whatever that usage happens to be. It's a bit like speeding - the speed I'm going is correct, anyone faster is a menace and anyone slower is under the feet and going to cause an accident.
For all the cries of "that's not how it works"
Again. that's not how it works.. "
It doesn't work and isn't working so rather than pissing on other people's chips because their ideas are different to current UK road traffic sentencing guidelines then maybe the current points and fines do need addressing.
The crux of it is though not enough police tasked with actively seeking out those on the phone , overload cps system to process any increase in potential prosecution and courts without capacity to hear lots of trials regarding phone use.
Maybe a different system with the option of taking points , or on the spot ( say within 3 days) fine of a week's wage, increase to a month wage on repeat offence would be a self financing deterrent.
And please let's not start with , but that's not how it works. Simply because it doesn't work. Phone use is at an all time high , and is only going to get worse as the millennials who have lived umbically attached to a phone get decent jobs and drive more
After several very close calls with drivers I bought some cameras from Chillitech a couple of months ago. I use them on my commute and have submited reports via Operation Snap of three drivers who drove very dangerously around me. Results are two warning letters sent and one Notice of Intended Prosecution.
I have not reported any phone drivers yet but see lots of them and am considering doing so. I would need to change my front camera from bar to helmet mount though. It would be like shooting fish in a barrel
And please let’s not start with , but that’s not how it works. Simply because it doesn’t work.
If 6 points and a several hundred quid fine isn't deterring people then increasing that penalty isn't going to make the blindest bit of difference. Crushing the phone as Funky suggested might I guess.
I bet if you asked drivers what the penalty was, most wouldn't know. Advertising that more widely could be a promising start, rather than crying to bring back the birch.
Can smoking and vaping be stopped too please, and people talking, and middle lane drivers, and those that stick just below the speed limit
The thing I don't get is why these people have phones to their ears. I drive a Dacia...I can make calls between talking to it.....it's a ****ing Dacia.....I bought it because it was the cheapest car I could buy, surely there cars do this. I mean my 20 year-old Skoda it replaced didn't but most cars are much newer.
Scrolling through tikity toks in stationary traffic is obviously tougher to get rid of.
No they don’t. It’s like three cities and they have automated cars, not autonomous ones. They still require a driver.
Not that I want to be picky, but I literally sat in the back of a Waymo in Phoenix last week and was driven from one place to another without anyone else in the car. Just because it's US-only, it doesn't mean that your statement that "we'll never have driverless cars" isn't wrong.
If 6 points and a several hundred quid fine isn’t deterring people then increasing that penalty isn’t going to make the blindest bit of difference.
As has already been said the problem's not really the sanctions, if people are flouting the law with impunity and getting away with it very few sanctions are going to work. The key to the problem is enforcement.
6 points & a several hundred quid fine would soon stop most people if it were applied each time they used their phones whilst driving.
All of the cars I have had this century have had hands free phone options, my latest car a Kia proceed wont move without me putting the seat belt on which is bloody annoying if i need to move it 2 m on the drive . It wouldnt be much of a step to apply similar tech to phones? .Internal cameras and phone detected = no start
It’s just one of many issues on cars, i see a fair few that aren’t MoT’d or Taxed,
im interested in how you know this since tax discs were abolished and there has never been a requirement to display an mot
Thing is, the laws on mobile use while driving were first passed in 2003
Front seat belts were a required fitting in cars 55 years ago (those of a certain age will remember "Clunk-Click"). Mandatory wearing of those front seat belts didn't happen until around 40 years ago (rear seat belts weren't a required fitting until a few years later)
The take-up of front seat belt wearing was comparatively widespread and rapid (90%), rear seat belts less so
Soon after the law came into effect in 1983, 90% of car drivers and front-seat passengers were observed to be wearing seat belts. These high rates of seat belt wearing in front-seats of cars have been sustained since that time.
When seatbelt wearing became compulsory for all rear-seat occupants in 1991, there was an immediate increase from 10% to 40% in observed seat belt wearing rates. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/thirty-years-of-seatbelt-safety
Is it generational, or do people perceive rear seat belt use and ignoring mobile phones as less necessary?
