[Closed] Well, it seemed a good idea after a few beers

Just don't climb a ladder to fix them up high for pressure...

Actually hoping to part bury them to help keep the temperature down. Trout don't like it above 20 Celsius.

Won't it be warmer below ground?

[i]Won't it be warmer below ground[/i]

No, it also tends to be more stable. Trout don't like variations in temperatures or water above 20. It the sun hits the whole of the IBCs they will heat up quite rapidly even if painted

boiled fish? 😆

The stopper on the top doesn't appear big enough to allow you to get in to plant your vegetables, wouldn't it be easier to plant your vegetables in the ground around the containers ?

If you know the right places to go, you can catch a large bucket of crayfish just by dropping a bit of bait on a line into the river, all the time enjoying a nice pint from the pub who's beer garden you're sitting in.
I've actually watched a bloke and his son do it, they must have ended up with thirty or forty of the blighters!
Pretty easy to get a few, most rivers are infested with Signal Crayfish these days, start your own breeding programme.

If you want to keep crayfish I would suggest that you research their oxygen requirements and figure out a way of installing a generator/compressor on the allotment to provide means of mechanically agitating the water.

You'll need to check the regs with crayfish (signal). You may need a licence to keep what is an alien invasive.
The trout sound like a good idea, but you may need some sort of running water setup.
Impressive ambition though.

Koi and chips for xmas dinner! 🙂

There are regs about crayfish so they may be disappearing from the list.

How about growing crab sticks?

Trout & Carp are meant to be relatively easy.

Water turn over is both tanks every 2 hours, so about 1000 litre per hour which isn't massive.

Fresh water prawns are meant to be good for cleaning the water and may replace the crayfish

Prawns won't provide a nitrogen cycle for you. If you add anything to the containers, such as food for the inhabitants, then you will have to remove the waste. Prawns are likely to add to the problem rather than solve it by consuming and producing waste.

Prawns clean algae

Tanks are bottom drained and solids filtered off for fertiliser while ammonia and nitrite rich water fertilises the plant in the soil free beds before being fed back into the tanks.

The Aqua bit is basic fish farming
The Ponics is from hydroponics which as any good canabis grow will tell you is very effective for dense planting and high yields.

Basically you add fish food, remove the lumpy fish shit, let the plants soak up the good bits of the fish piss and recirculate. Harvest is fish and vegetables .

water Fleas are a good bet...

Our morning cup o' char always turned into a protein rich soup when we used to dip the kettle in the lake.. back in the days of living under canvas

Prawns clean algae

Which if stable causes no harm and can actually remove nitrates, although admittedly in tiny quantities.

.....while ammonia and nitrite rich water fertilises the plant in the soil free beds before being fed back into the tanks.

My apologies, I had no idea that you were going to have a filtration system which will be irrigating growing plants before returning back into the containers. That isn't obvious from the picture. It certainly sounds more reliable than relying on shrimps 🙂

Looking forward to seeing how this progresses

Ernie - I will be posting some pictures of what is planned when I can remember what was agreed. Hopefully then all will become clear. Algae are only a problem in that they bung up the pumps and pipes and some can be toxic. Easier to keep it all clean

Here is a quick pic. Not quite perfect but it should give the idea

[img] [/img]

The fish are in both tanks.
There is an air stone in both tanks to keep them oxygenated.
The grey pipe between the pumps allows the water and fish shit to flow between the two tanks
The left tank has a pump pushing water up the brown pipe to the grow beds
The long grey pipe across the back of the beds evens out the water flow to ensure both ends of the bed receive nutrient rich water
The bed is soil free growing medium - gravel or clay balls - so the plants get their nutrients directly from the water.
The blue bit in the middle of the bed is a syphon valve. This means the beds will fill up to a predetermined depth and then all the water will be syphoned into the tanks below leaving the grow bed to slowly fill again*
The water exiting the syphon valve will be piped back into the two tanks with the splashing adding more oxygen

*Apparently plant roots grow best when in the air having been recently wetted. This system will fill up the bed to wet the roots and then empty again. The timing of this cycle is yet to be determined and will depend on speed of pump, size of bed and depth of water. We are aiming for about 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 for duration wet vs dry.

1st guess, nowhere near enough water, fish constantly excrete nitrites and other chemicals to balance their system, I can see this getting toxic very quickly if you want to keep enough fish to make it worthwhile. 2000 litres is equivalent to a very small pond. You might also struggle with oxygenation in warm weather, air stones work by keeping the surface moving, not through dissolving oxygen.

It's a working system but on a MUCH bigger scale. For added realism stick a couple of chickens in a cage above the water to grow your algae. (Google poultry and waste fed fish aquaculture if you haven't already)

How many fish are you intending to harvest to make it worthwhile? I assume it's not about saving cash but you're just essentially replicating fish farming. Fish farming is now so efficient that trout and Salmon are incredibly cheap.

It's going to suck up time keeping it all running properly.

Good luck though! I'll expect trout on the bbq at the big bike bash...

Great idea WCA - I'll be interested to see the updates.
A couple of things to bear in mind:
Your flow rate is very low and will limit the stocking density of fish (and remember to calculte the stocking density based on the final target not the initial weight). I would suggest you go for no more than 10kg per cubic m but in theory you could go higher in later years in everything works out. To be clear thats 10 fish with a harvest weight of 1kg.
if you have prawns or crayfish either keep them separate from the fish or have lots of hiding spaces as the fish will eat them when they moult.
i would suggest you dont us both tanks. The linking pipe will eventually get blocked and will be a pain to clear if its underground. Also the temperature will fluctuate even with the tanks in the ground- probably too much for trout which will get stressed and lead to disease.
The biggest problem with aquaponics units is that you cant treat the fish in situ as the plants will also take up any medications, so you have to have a back up filter or tank just in case.
Another thing to consider is evaporation as the high surface area of the plant system leads to a lot of water loss. If you use the spare tank for holding water you can top up as needed, obviously water straight from the hose isnt suitable.
Have you considered food for the fish? A standard trout diet will contain around 40% protein 20% fat which will be a lot for a vegetable filter to handle so you will need to stick to carp diets and feed sparinigly.
Another thing to consider is the syphon - in my experience matching inlet and ouket flow rates never works long term. A better option is always to pump in and gravity feed back. The advantage of this is that you can use the return water to aerate as well by letting it drain through holes in the plant unit.
If you had a greenhouse then a better option for food fish would be tilapia, but if not then have you considered goldfish ( not for food)? You could leave the goldfish and breed in the tank, harvest the plants and have small goldfish to sell to a local petshop. I know its not food but it will be a lot easier than trout.
Good luck whatever you decide to do.
Cheers Matt.
Ninja edits: Choose the plant carefully as you need a very fast growth rate for decent filtration and you will also need to dose with minerals to keep the plants healthy. A good book to read, though its probably a bit out dated now, is Walter Adey's Dynamic Aquaria. It describes the full ecosystem modelling using aquaponics and algae filters at the Simthsonian in the seventies and eighties.

I kept around 40 rainbow trout in a 2000 litre system with 3 beds of around a ton of hydroleca. I added a trickle filter which helped massively. One thing to remember to do is buy fingerings. This will help the filter grow as the fish grow. I always had a tank full of plate sized fish and a tank of fingerings coming through. Organic salt is your friend for any problems. Mine must have been happy as they spawned on a regular basis. I used a 6000 litre water pump and a huge koi air pump. In the end I closed it down as any attempts to grow over winter were failures or just not productive enough. The fish tasted great though and the guts were great fert for the dirt garden. Btw mine went upto 26c okl. Lots of air and moving water is the clue. Carp would be less demanding on water movement and energy. Good luck and keep us upto date.

Many people run single IBC systems successfully with 10-15 trout and a couple of grow beds.

I am aiming for 20-30 trout in 2000 litres but harvesting quite small so can cope with shorter growing period / off over winter.

The IBCs will be in holes in the ground but the gap between them will also be in the hole so we will have constant access to pipe work.

I thought air stones bubbled air into the bottom of the IBC and it dissolved (some) oxygen on the way up. That seems to be the advice I have read.

The blue barrel in the first photo is the water storage before putting it in the tanks to let the chlorine evaporate. Possibly the sick fish tank too if required - water changed afterwards.

Flow rates / Syphon - System will be pumped up and syphon back down. Pump will have a throttle and syphon can be adjusted to increase / decrease speed of dump. Dump should provide some oxygen. I am listening to what you say nd may convert later as it is not difficult - thanks

Tilipia were my first thought for fish but they like averages in the twenties where trout cope with something below 22. I thought UK summers would average below 22 but happy to listen to those who have done it. I might put Tilapia in one IBC and Trout in the other. Whichever die first become food for the other.

Planning on creating mesh cage play areas for the little beasties to hide in when the big fish might eat them. Hopefully they will have enough sense to stay within the cage. If they don't? Well who wants to eat stupid prawns?

Carp - possible. I have heard they are easier

[i]Btw mine went upto 26c okl[/i] Can you expand the acrynoym please? I am sure it is impressive but I don't know what it means 😉

Anyone with a system near Southampton who might want to talk / show is welcome to email me. Failing that, all advice welcome

Any good sources* for fingerlings?

*Other than Tartar Sauce

No tap water! Most utilities add ammonia and chloride which reacts and produces chloramines which don't 'air' off. You need to only use rainwater for trout. Again carp are a bit more robust. Tilapia won't survive our summers. They are tropical fish and need around 25 celcius constant.
Looking back at my notes my system averaged 15c over last summer with the odd peak upto 25c. The system was in a greenhouse too. I'm in North Manchester so you may average a couple of degrees higher. Btw tilapia are vegetarians so won't eat your dead trout. Killing fish with bad technique could be a case for the rspc! There are methods for aquaponic systems that use worm castings. Which maybe an option??

Also, removing solids for highly stocked ibc systems is a big deal. I wouldn't add any structures to inside the ibc. Keep as clear as possible so the solids are in suspension and removed to the beds. Introduce compost worms to the beds and your remineralising the solids within the beds. I spent around half an hour everyday maintaining the system and feeding the fish. Trout are high maintenance.

I will be using goldfish initially as they are the most tolerant while I make sure the levels are stable and I can keep them stable. Then a few trout or carp in the other tank. Start small as I am learning. This is for dinner and fun, not a restaurant.

Thanks for confirmation on Tilapia. That is what I thought.

It reached 25 in Manchester?!?!??? Now I am not sure I can believe anything you say 🙂

1/2 an hour a day. That's fine as I am doing this with my son in law and it is in his allotment outside his house. I could pop down once a week and any death is his fault. Realistically I am hoping to be a bit more involved.

I thought air stones bubbled air into the bottom of the IBC and it dissolved (some) oxygen on the way up. That seems to be the advice I have read.

The total area of the air bubbles will actually be insignificant, the gas exchange, ie, the carbon dioxide release/oxygen absorption will occur primarily on the surface of the water.

Aeration will only really help this by moving the water and exposing the maximum amount to the surface.

This will be particularly important in your case as from the pictures it would appear that you will have a small area of water surface relative to your total cubic volume.

Makes sense once explain. Thanks. I will ponder some more.

I assume that if the water is splashing out into the grow beds it will also help.

Splash into the grow beds and splash when they dump will be the main sources as it is currently planned right?

Extra frotilation of the surface will improve it.

I assume that if the water is splashing out into the grow beds it will also help.

Absolutely, that's why cascading mountain rivers are very heavily oxygenated. Well to saturation point at least. And remember how important temperature is - oxygen levels drop very significantly at higher temperatures, so the warmer it is the more important aeration/agitation is.

The exact principle used in trickle filters. Google it. They are used in sewage systems to process ammonia and nitrites. The added benefit is that their end product in nitrates which the plants love and fish arnt too keen on. Keep it as aerobic as possible. Any froth or slime is a bad sign. Increase air, reduce feeding and trust your nose. If the water smells bad then it's not going to be good for plants or fish.

I don't understand about 90% of that ^

However, don't allotments normally have a 'no livestock' rule?

Perhaps WCA is setting up his trout farm in Bristol 🙂

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-19499737 ]Urban 'fish allotment' scheme trialled in Bristol[/url]

I have an 'on off' relationship with rules.

They are not livestock, they are a water based compost heap. Prove me wrong and justify the expense

Prove that and I will ask why they allow worms in vermiculture

Legoman: Another way if saying it.... Stick forty trout in a big bucket for a week with no experience of aquaculture and you'll end up with a slimy, stinky, dead mess.

Seems cruel to the fish to keep them in those tanks IMO.

I don't understand about 90% of that ^

Me too .... But I thoroughly enjoyed reading it.

Here's me wondering whether to have a little go at growing your own in a small raised bed at the bottom of the garden and you boys are doing or have done something similar to this.

I'm inspired and off to buy my tomato grow bags.

Keep up the good work all ... 🙂

Legoman: Another way if saying it.... Stick forty trout in a big bucket for a week with no experience of aquaculture and you'll end up with a slimy, stinky, dead mess.

Allthepies: Fair comment. Nothing like seeing a clear river full of trout from a bridge on a summers day. Or a rolling wave full of sea bass on a cornish beach.
But if you are interested in controlling your sources of food and understanding the process of nature. You can't beat an experiment in a bucket. Just remember to put the animals welfare first.

[i]You can't beat an experiment in a bucket. Just remember to put the animals welfare firs[/i]

Agreed. Amazing how much there is to read but most of it seems to be American or Australian with the focus on warm water fish like Tilapia.

The only UK forum I can find needs you to answer the following question to register: What does IBC stand for?

Now according to my understanding, Wikipedia and everythig I can find, the answer is Intermediate bulk container but having tried it with upper and lower case it rejects my answer. Any suggestions?

Incredibly Big Container ?

Idiot Behind Computer ?

QOTD:

Hopefully they will have enough sense to stay within the cage. If they don't? Well who wants to eat stupid prawns?

[i]QOTD:

Hopefully they will have enough sense to stay within the cage. If they don't? Well who wants to eat stupid prawns?[/i]

Stolen from The Sykes Show about 40 years ago.

Eric and Hattie were in Scotland on a fishing trip. While Eric was using the rod, Hattie used the landing net. Eric said it would be a pretty stupid salmon to swim into the net right at the moment a huge salmon swam into the net.

Hattie then let the salmon go and Eric yelled "Why did you do that?!?" to which Hattie replied "Well, I don't want to catch a stupid fish"

Must have made an impression on a young WCA

Informative and amusing thread - respect to WCA for effort and ambition as I wouldn't know where to start and would worry for any fish if I did. An old umpire's chair would seem ideal for casting into the tanks when you need to catch tea 😉

Hole dug and tanks positioned
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Start filling the bed to check the syphon works
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Realise the top bed isn't quite level. It is now and the syphon does work
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Back home for sauna and a glass of wine

Looking good. Any more updates??

Sorry, not much progress as we had to wait to get the electrics put in properly.

Pea shingle added today.
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Currently there are just 4 goldfish in the tanks. The thought being that goldfish are pretty resilient so less likely to die during the set up.

Next, need to find somewhere to buy the fish

I have nothing intelligent to add to this thread but you obviously haven't been to the village fair enough if you think gold fish are resilient.

Well the trial goldfish have all survived.

The water circulation seems reliable.

The plants haven't died and the trough hasn't collapsed.

50 Tench*ordered for collection next week.

*Chosen after Googling and these seemed the best compromise between price / ease of maintenance/ quantity of recipes

Excellent to see the progress. Get some maxicrop. It's an organic liquid kelp feed that will help the plants as the nutrients build up from the fish. is it all smelling sweet? Are the tench fingerings? Please don't drop 50 full grown tench into that immature filter system. They will overwhelm it's capacity And die. Ammonia, nitrite and ph tests all looking good?

2-3 inch long Tench.

The rule of thumb I was given was 1lb of fully grown fish per 10 gallons of water.

We have over 400 gallons so lets call it 40 x 1lb fish. We will probably lose some over time and get bored of waiting and eat some small ones so sticking 50 in now should be okay.

Water all good at the moment. We did get an algae build up in the tanks but pond clear stuff sorted that. I am thinking of sticking a few plants hanging in nets into the tanks to help keep them clean as Tench shouldn't eat them.

You've put a weed killer in a food production system? Algae won't harm anything. In fact it will probably make the fish feel more comfortable. 1 to 2 inchs will help the systems capacity grow with the fish. I would not eat the fish tho after treating them with an algaecide.

Water is good. Tench are 1-2 inch fingerlings.

I was given 10 gallons per pound of matured fish as a rule of thumb.

We have a bit over 400 gallons of water so can hold 40 1 pounbd fish.

I am guessing we will lose a few and get bored and eat some a bit early so I reckon 50 is about right.

All tips and advice welcome. I am nothing but a happy amateur.

Tench aren't the hardiest of fish to try to raise.. They're pretty susceptible to disease and stress outside of their natural environment

And punkrockdad is a fraud if he's referring to cornish Bass as Seabass 😉

(what other sort of Bass are there in Cornwall? Seabass is a cookery term, not a fishing term)

Well I was impressed he could use the word Fingerling without giggling...

Tench don't seem that bad, better than rainbow trout which was my first choice.

Mind you they say that rainbow trout eat tench so the fingerlings may start as a crop and end up as fish food.

Let's see what happens

With the Bass / Sea Bass / Cornish Bass debate, I thought they were all just Bass. What gets me is Pan Fried Sea Bass - Is this to distinguish it from deep fat fried sea bass? Not for sale at my local chippy

I missed the l as well so it was even more, Erm, 'rude'?

Have you raised tench yunki? I'd love to hear your experiences. Not a fish I have first hand knowledge of.

Well I thought they would be in a bigger bag but at least they traveled to their new home safely.
[img] https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/dzqRZeF6DurdZMWBnlWTOrVKlV_4lL-bv0aN1kc7Prk=w1624-h914-no [/img]

Now they are exploring the new tank. As they are only little they are all in the same tank although it is connected to the other one so they are free to swim between. Will check again this evening to see if any have migrated.
[img] https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Lkv4lw0qIsD6ahV9RwgAVvPAgRJhgnbAe46_RHOtl1c=w1624-h914-no [/img]

WorldClassAccident - Member

We did get an algae build up in the tanks but pond clear stuff sorted that.

Before we got rid of our pond, we had some of that pond clear stuff that the previous owner had left.
It explicitly said on it that it wasn't to be used in tanks/ponds that had fish in that were gonna be eaten.

I take it the stuff you used to get rid of the algae is safe?

Apparently so. Plus look at the fish - it will be a year or two before they are eaten so the algaecide applied a week before the fish were added and run through the filter beds continuously should not present too great a risk I feel.

We are not planning of using it going forward as hopefully the plants I mentioned should help with the control.

What was in the IBCs before you re-purposed them WCA? No chance of contamination from them? Great little project BTW, love seeing stuff like this 🙂

All looking good! Anything growing in the beds yet?

I have nothing helpful to add, other than to say that this looks brilliant! Carry on!

Fish still alive and vegetables are growing!

IBC intermediate bulk carrier, and yes make sure they are clean, we bought some cheap many years ago to store used nitric acid and one still had some cellulose thinners in it...... 😯

These had some kind of sugary syrup in them. Cleaned well before we started.

Update!

No dead fish yet and lots of plants growing

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Any suggestions of what to plant now as we are clearing some of the old stuff out?

Hows your fish?

Hows your fish?

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