I think the majority of folk posting, maybe even including TJ, will have been indoctrinated into the Christian faith as children.. by society, school, parents and the media..
I don't think it's done my agnostic, hedonistic humanist faith too much harm..
maybe THM's kids will lovingly refer to him as Ned Flanders in later years..?
I think religious schools are good for the economy. They teach kids from an early age that there are people willing to be sold [b]anything[/b]
"More to be pitied than hated."
So there is some hate in there then TJ? Come on man, that's not right and you know it.
Yo have not given them anything but indoctrinated them into a superstition. if they were able to "critically analyse all aspects of religion" they would reject it as the load of twaddle it is.
However this does shed a lot of light on your intolerant patronising attitude and your assurance of your own superiority.
This assumption that others must come to the same conclusions as yourself demonstrates a rejection of both critical, analytical thinking and self awareness. It comes across as more of an indoctrinated dogma than any organised religion I have encountered.
TJ is walking a fine line with the Banning stick again i see.
You just cant help with your insults and personal attack on people can you.
You seem to find it so hard to understand why we all dont want to live on planet TJ.
Who are you people? What are you doing on my lawn?
My favourite part was when Cougar said "But I don't know, I can only speak for one person" - or words to that effect. I wish everyone in the world had this self awareness.
Loum - rational thought requires evidence. faith is acceptance of belief without evidence thus is not rational.
Any critical, analytical thought process must reject faith without evidence.
Its the massive hypocriscy and closed mindedness of teamhurtmore I object to - not his faith.
stevenwhyte - you came in with the offensive posts and insults early on. However you are right I will be flirting with teh banhammer so must leave
Loum - rational thought requires evidence. faith is acceptance of belief without evidence thus is not rational.
TJ - you are irrational. You are not a computer, you have emotions. You have your own bias the same as everyone else. Don't forget it.
In other words, I love you.
You big ol' human, you.
Its the massive hypocriscy and closed mindedness of teamhurtmore I object to
Oi, CaptainFlashheart, can we have your graphic again please
rational thought requires evidence. faith is acceptance of belief without evidence thus is not rational.
...and, as such, you'll have a very difficult job converting a 'believer' using rational argument.
Any critical, analytical thought process must reject faith without evidence.
...Exactly, but the 'believers' [i]want[/i] to believe, they don't want to be critical, because they know that their faith won't stand up to scrutiny.
I used to have these debates with people I know, but I've given up as replies such as "....Because it is/the Bible says/well, if you don't question it too much..." don't really lead anywhere.
Personally, I prefer to have an enquiring mind open to new ideas.
Let them carry on, but do let's separate the established (minority) church and state.
How about
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My daughter goes to a non denominational school so is forced to learn about other faiths, it isn't a problem for her or us. In fact it is a positively good thing.
Glad you are happy with your choice unfortunately my child and i are not happy with it but have no choice but to endure this.
Teaching them to respect different cultures is fine. Teaching them the incorrect beliefs of said cultures as to the origins of life and it's meaning is not IMHO.
Your child's experience had nothing to do with religion in general and more to do with one particular person who was appropriately reprimanded - and you know it.
Well of course you have a point there but I am pretty sure of she had not believed in Jesus she would not have asked him. The problem was caused by her belief intitially and then her subsequent poor choice to force it onto others.
Remove her religion and she would not have asked- of course training would have stopped this too. I wonder if they have ever needed to point this ou to someone who was not religious what do you reckon?
... you are right I will be flirting with teh banhammer so must leave....
Pretty sure you have said that in this thread at least once already.... And yet you are still here ?
[b]
Its the massive hypocriscy and inability to follow through with these promises that I object to - not that you are posting your opinion.[/b]
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TJ, where is it written out that we (humans) have to be rational about stuff?
TJ, where is it written out that we (humans) have to be rational about stuff?
It's difficult to live life without any sort of rationality....
Emsz - In the bible? 🙂
to be fair, he didn't say that we have to be rational, only that for something to be rational it has to meet certain requirements of which faith isn't one.
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FWIW, my son has just argued over lunch that my abstention from coffee and chocolate over Lent was (a) ridiculous and (2) misunderstanding the whole concept of 40 days. His studying of Jewish history/theology allows him to understand what 40 days actually refers to (unlike my literal interpretation) and reject the concept of giving up anything for the calender period of Lent. His main interest in theology lies in picking the holes in most accepted aspects of so-called religious life/dogma - of which abstaining over Lent is one example.
So one person draws conclusions (and choses to insult others) from a position of complete ignorance of their positions and one on the basis of critical analysis - sorry, which one should be pitied?
[not arguing here mods, that's my last comment on the issue...nb, no personal attacks from my side!]
sorry, which one should be pitied?
That's personal, isn't it? 😀
TJ, where is it written out that we (humans) have to be rational about stuff?
DOnt worry you are female and we all know that you lot are exempt from being rational 😉
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It's difficult to live life without any sort of rationality....
While that may be true, why is 'rationality' necessary when it comes to this subject?
I use inverted commas because I disagree with the use of rationality as a term that can only be applied to thought that stems from direct, hard evidence.
I feel it is more about the beliefs of a person, and the reasons behind these beliefs, no matter the source. As does wikipedia, it appears.
Well, as the catholic dad of a big old gay son, my plans for tonight are a takeaway (fish on friday - pah!), lots of jamesons, and sticking my hands (in a rational manner, of course) up the wifes jumper (again).
I wonder if they have ever needed to point this ou to someone who was not religious what do you reckon?
The answer to that is that they would have. I have had very left wing socialist teachers spout their beliefs all the time during lessons before. Stuff that had nothing to do with the lesson but no, they didn't ask me to write a letter to anyone about it.
Teaching them the incorrect beliefs of said cultures as to the origins of life and it's meaning is not IMHO.
They are teaching them what other people with other beliefs believe. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, even if you think that said beliefs are wrong. Knowing and understanding what others believe is a reasonable part of bringing children up to be social, even if they don't go on to have those beliefs themselves.
You're going to be spending ages in confession, mitch 😉
and sticking my hands (in a rational manner, of course) up the wifes jumper (again)
yipee - we were missing that, thanks :-). I believe you will have rather a fine time doing it as well
Same old, clubber. Frankly, I dont really give one. 🙂
“rational thought requires evidence. faith is acceptance of belief without evidence thus is not rational.”
I'll offer up some kind of evidence.
Sadly its only my personal evidence but many more would probably agree.
Since regularly attending church over the last year or so….
I have felt never more happy, content, enlightened and free.
To deny myself that, would have to be irrational, would it?
They are teaching them what other people with other beliefs believe. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, even if you think that said beliefs are wrong. Knowing and understanding what others believe is a reasonable part of bringing children up to be social, even if they don't go on to have those beliefs themselves.
I get your point but TBH i dont need to know what fanciful mishmash of gibberish they happen to believe in to treat them with respect...see how well I am doing with that sentence 😉
Seriously you dont need to know what people beleieve to be respectful
Good point re the socialist teacher point accepted- yes they must have with other teachers with extreme/strongly held views.
There's a difference between "teaching what others believe" and "presenting belief as fact." And it's a big one.
I'm quite happy for RE lessons to say that "well, Christians believe X, whereas Muslims believe Y." It's when people start lobbying for science lessons to teach creationism that I get cross.
It's irresponsible to teach religion as fact; it's not fact, it's faith, and that doesn't change even if you really believe it a lot.
More power to you, Ro5ey.
You have your reasons for doing things, just as everyone else. These reasons are vast in number. I am probably incapable of fully understanding all of them, as I am alas trapped in my own mind and unable to occupy the brains of others.
Aristotle - Member"rational thought requires evidence. faith is acceptance of belief without evidence thus is not rational."
...and, as such, you'll have a very difficult job converting a 'believer' using rational argument.
"Any critical, analytical thought process must reject faith without evidence."
...Exactly, but the 'believers' want to believe, they don't want to be critical, because they know that their faith won't stand up to scrutiny.
I used to have these debates with people I know, but I've given up as replies such as "....Because it is/the Bible says/well, if you don't question it too much..." don't really lead anywhere.
.Personally, I prefer to have an enquiring mind open to new ideas
Let them carry on, but do let's separate the established (minority) church and state.
well said.
(fish on friday - pah!)
It's Thursday Mitch.
No need to worry about that one at least 😉
Since regularly attending church over the last year or so….I have felt never more happy, content, enlightened and free.
Can I ask why?
Genuine question, not trolling. What do you get out of it, what's changed to give you that contentment?
Hurrah for barnsleymitches son and for Mrs barnsleymitches chest.
Both very splendid things whether divinely ordained or not.
And his fish supper.
While that may be true, why is 'rationality' necessary when it comes to this subject?
Because the period when religion was at the height of it's power in Europe it actively suppressed free thinking. Think Galileo.
Getting my days mixed up there nealglover! Could be the rapture, or (much more likely) the thought of BOOZE and the wifes bazoomers!
Since regularly attending church over the last year or so….I have felt never more happy, content, enlightened and free.
To deny myself that, would have to be irrational, would it
Self reports are not actually facts
Read up on the placebo affect where we can prove people being happy and recovering when being treated with nothing- its not real what is happening but it is still happening.
we can prove humans delude themselves though we may not be able to prove it in your case
You being happy does not prove God exists I am happy and I dont have faith
Listen, while we're wasting time with all things theological (though I have enjoyed tj's posts), there's the making's of a lynchmob over on the bike forum - get me my pitchfork boys, I've a mind to join in!
Ta Barneslymitch. I have enjoyed debating with you in the past. Humour and honesty go a long way
Because the period when religion was at the height of it's power in Europe it actively suppressed free thinking. Think Galileo.
I disagree - The [b]Church[/b] surpressed free thinking using its power of indoctrination, with religion acting as the veil behind which it was disguised.
Either way - I'm trying to say one is rational if they have reasons for their beliefs, no matter the source. Rationality is not the right term for us to be discussing.
It's interesting that the placebo effect has been cited - it is clear that one is capable of feeling better with no real medicine - if the whole point was to feel better (as Ro5ey has), why does it matter?
Humour and honesty go a long way
malevolence and conniving go further 😛
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...although he'd probably return on a Brompton, IMO.
I'm a devout atheist, but I'm also a sucker for old country churches & banging out hymns (as an ex-choir boy, [i]My song is love unknown[/i] still reduces me to jelly). Within reason, I don't consider the beliefs of others' to be my busy-ness, with two exceptions:
1. Creationists targeting education.
2. Politicos trumpeting about shared values.
Otherwise, carry on.
