Jesus, I see the UK political establishment has decided another moral panic about drugs is necessary. Because the previous war on drugs was such a raging success wasn't it? It's especially depressing given most of the rest of the world are moving in the direction of legalisation and more grown up approaches to the problems related to drug use and addiction. Our politicians are idiots.
"Our politicians are idiots"
And also on drugs it seems.
Weird that they've announced this just when there are news articles about coke being snorted at the parliament. The House.. must get its own house in order?
"Last one on drugs is a queer," shouts Portillo.
I was disappointed the news on Radio 4 this morning completely failed to link these two stories.
Weird that they’ve announced this just when there are news articles about coke being snorted at the parliament. The House.. must get its own house in order?
In fairness, the headline is that they're going to try to reach and offer treatment to the 300k or so addicts in the UK that supposedly commit half of all thefts in the UK. It's something that the Police and Drug Addiction workers have been asking for, for years.
Of course, it falls short of the only real solutions IMHO, accepting that drug addiction is a medical issue and not a criminal issue and decriminalising drugs.
They also plan to 'crack down' on organised gangs.
Of course, Headlines are easy, how are they actually going to achieve it. More funding for the Police, more funding for the 3rd industry that offer out-reach for addicts, or just more money to their mates to plunder?
Around 10% of the population use recreational drug IIRC
IMO its really really important to separate out the different drugs and to use different approaches to each. Look worldwide and see what works, take the best practice out there and use that. Use a harm reduction / healthcare issue approach in general
Again IMO
Cannabis - state regulated supply and sale ( avoid the dutch trap of letting the profits go int the hands of organised crime) give kids who want to get high some sort of safer alternative Harm from cannabis is low
MDMA / ecstasy - as above in low dose low concentration form. Again harm is low
Use profits from both to mitigate health ill effects
cocaine - full force of the law using resources freed up from the above. Harm to individuals is high, harm to society is apparent as well
Heroin - decriminalise simple possession. Punishing junkies does not work. State supply for known junkies but consumption only in a sate shooting gallery. make it just dull and tedious. this would have a huge effect on crime as so much petty crime is done by junkies feeding their addiction. Chase the big dealers hard.
It's still denying the total and utter counter-productive life-destroying mess that is the war on drugs, but I guess the treatment stuff could be good. Will probably be outsourced so Serco though.
Sounds like something SKS wouldn't dare to do for fear of being soft on 'druggies'.
Why keen to punish cocaine addicts and no one else TJ?
Oh look, an otter.
Sounds like something SKS wouldn’t dare to do for fear of being soft on ‘druggies’.
Don't understand what mudguards have got to do with anything.
Cannabis – state regulated supply and sale
Largely hasn't worked in California though. I would certainly legalise possession, I'm not convinced yet that state involvement in production and taxation would necessarily make things better. Agree that drugs need to be reclassified, the medical uses of MDMA and mushrooms needs to be more widely researched, and their class 1 classification is stopping that.
The new German coalition are now going to legalise cannabis. IMO once Germany does the rest of europe will follow.
Of course the best way to keep people from abusing drugs is to create a system where more people live happy fulfilled lives, **** all chance of our political class working towards that. Much easier to blame foreigners and call those suffering from poverty scroungers and make them the enemy.
"Chasing the scream" is an interesting book, and reveals just how much drug policy was based on racism and supporting the vietnam war rather than any concern for societies wellbeing. And iirc also details how America exported that through trade deals, which is why most countries still decriminalise rather than legalise.
Of course, it falls short of the only real solutions IMHO, accepting that drug addiction is a medical issue and not a criminal issue and decriminalising drugs.
la la la, I'm not listening
hangings too good for them
it's all their own fault
they're bad people
stone them
**** all chance of our political class working towards that.
of course
we are "blessed" in this country to have government of the people, by the rich and aristocratic lot; rather than a government for the people, by the people
Wr aren't winning the war to remove them, so support for users and maybe some sort of legal medically controlled access to remove the profits from the criminals?
Kind of works with tobacco and alcohol, but wiser heads than mine need to figure it out really.
Why keen to punish cocaine addicts and no one else TJ?
they are not addicts - it is not a drug of addiction ( tho the crack form comes close)
this is all over simplified and generalisations - to not do so so would take me hours to type
Its harmful both to individuals in health and its harmful to the country because of the stupid decision taken by folk using it ie boom and bust in the city etc - its the drug of choice in finance and banking.
I argue for the harm reduction approach to heroin usage because it stopping all the crime that junkies do - a junkie with a clean supply is just a boring waste of space. they do no harm to others
I argue against this for cocaine because this does not apply in the same way - and cocaine and alcohol mixed causes a lot of stress to society - fights etc. someone taking cocaine is a huge pain in the arse to society from the direct effects of the drug. someone taking heroin the ill effects on society are due to the secondary effects - ie the prohibition causing them to end up in a life of low level crime. The cocaine user does not commit crime to get their supply - run out you do not get withdrawal so you do not have to commit a crime to get your next hit
Cannabis and MDMA - I treat as the safest ways to get high - safer than alcohol people want to get high - its been in all societies since the dawn of human consciousness so divert them into the safer drugs
this approach to heroin and cannabis works in the netherlands - they have very few problem drug users and very few new recruits into addiction
Again IMO
Don't disagree with any of that. Weed, MDMA, LSD, magic mushrooms should all be legal and available to buy thorugh highly regulated sources with a large slice of the proceeds being ringfenced for education and treatment.
The dangers of heroin are massively exaggerated and can be almost eliminated by stricly supervised medical supply. Not sure exactly how you deal with the recreational side of it, and my instinct is still to have full legalisation. It doesn't make sense to allow the black market to be in control of supply.
Same goes for the more harmful drugs like cocaine, crack, amphetamines, ketamine etc. The idea of allowing legal supply of these seems wrong, but then we allow tobacco smoking and irresponsible use of alcohol so not sure what the difference is.
Of particular interest in all of this is that they are considering confiscating the passports and driving licenses of middle class drug users as a away of punishing them in a way that affects their lifestyle.
Don't think it will work in practice and seems to more posturing than anything else....
so rich folk get to keep their passports?
sounds ideal for boris and his jolly chums. bring on the technology lessons and the dwarves with the trays of cocaine balanced on their heads
Don’t think it will work in practice and seems to more posturing than anything else….
if "middle class recreational user commuter man" (on the number 24 clapham omnibus) loses his passport and drivers license, and then his job because he can't commute or the job needs him to drive, what next? a life of petty crime? thrown out on the street? kids turning to daylight robbery? before we know it all these recreational once-a-month-at-home users will be shooting up skag on street corners and mugging mug punters for their next fix.
@tjagain Cocaine is addictive. I know lots of people addicted to it. One guy has just come out of residential rehab for it.
so not sure what the difference is.
because unlike when tobacco and alcohol were legalised the effects of them weren't very well understood, where as now there's masses of evidence about the harm that drugs like cocaine, crack, amphetamines, ketamine do, so legalising them would be pretty irresponsible.
It s really not YGH unless your definition of addiction is so wide it would include playing bridge and cycling!
You do not get withdrawal symptoms
benzidiazipine withdrawal - can be fatal
Heroin withdrwal - weeks of puking shitting pain and misery
cocaine withdrawal - tuesday blues
4561 deaths from drugs in the UK last year and not one of them was necessary, if people had access to unadulterated drugs of a known strength and information on how to take them safely then no one would have to die. The government knows this so I don't understand why there isn't more political appetite for more radical change, are voters really against this?
someone taking cocaine is a huge pain in the arse to society from the direct effects of the drug
*Over-simplified and generalisations klaxon*
Loads of people take cocaine regularly and don't go out and get in fights etc. Fairly common in lots of high pressure/long hours type jobs - it's obviously not healthy to do so and there will be some extra strain on the NHS, but the idea all cocaine users turn into violent offenders is nonsense.
I would imagine there are mental sypmtoms of one form or another. Much like there can be with cannabis or MDMA or similar.
if people had access to unadulterated drugs of a known strength and information on how to take them safely then no one would have to die.
apart from cocaine causing heat attacks and strokes directly and cannabis causing lung cancers
cannabis causing lung cancers
only if you smoke it.
Jeez, what is it with the drug laws? They just get stupider. So the tradesman caught tripping on a weekend can now have his driving license removed... yeah awesome, a new problem created where there wasn't one before.
Why not life sentences for anyone with the letters D,R,U,G or S in their name.
Absolute farce.
If people could buy coca leaf tea they wouldn't have heart attacks (unless they drank a tonne of it) Cocaine has been made to be the most concentrated version of the plant because it would be impossible to secretly transport tonnes of leaves - prohibition has made that drug so dangerous.
Smoking anything is bad for you, more education to stop people smoking cannabis could stop lung cancer caused by this - in legal states in the US people can buy edibles gummies etc, no lung cancer risk with these right?
I agree Grum - I did say my analysis was over simplified 😉
My point is that legalising cocaine would not reduce the harms to individuals and society. Decriminalising heroin would
I am not taking any sort of moral view here - just looking to minimise the harms to society and individuals
cocaine withdrawal – tuesday blues
The voice of someone who has never witnessed someone come off of coke addiction.
"I snorted that line in a limited and specific way."
where as now there’s masses of evidence about the harm that drugs like cocaine, crack, amphetamines, ketamine do, so legalising them would be pretty irresponsible.
True but people take them anyway. Cocaine use in particular is so widespread that the law is effectively redundant. Yes, it's dangerous (although not as much as TJ would have us believe), but as adults it's up to us to assess the risks and make a decision, just like we do with many other things that are a risk to our health and wellbeing. I'd strongly argue that allowing the supply to be controlled by criminal gangs causes much more harm than any increase in usage would, especially when you factor in the improved education and treatment that legalisation would enable.
My point is that legalising cocaine would not reduce the harms to individuals and society. Decriminalising heroin would
The evidence from Portugal is pretty clear isn't it? Their approach is successful for all drugs AFAIAA.
The thing that pisses off is the law around psychedelics. There is clearly potential there for personal/social benefit if used responsibly, but the last thing they did was make it illegal to even pick and eat liberty caps in a field.
Of particular interest in all of this is that they are considering confiscating the passports and driving licenses of middle class drug users as a away of punishing them in a way that affects their lifestyle.
I wonder if that will include the mp's and other people currently inhabiting and working in Parliament as per recent study on the cocaine residue left on MP's toilets 😕
I know, I'm just being silly.
The voice of someone who has never witnessed someone come off of coke addiction.
Wrong - its the voice of someone who has worked in drug rehab, who has friends that became over users of cocaine ( and stopped instantly when they realised it was becomeing an issue without any withdrawal) and who saw a friend die from cocaine ( massive heart attack)
TJ do you have some links to back up your claim that cocaine isn't addictive? It's widely considered to be one of the most addictive substances in existence.
'My friends got off it fine' isn't really convincing me.
Wrong – its the voice of someone who has worked in drug rehab, who has friends that became over users of cocaine ( and stopped instantly when they realised it was becomeing an issue without any withdrawal) and who saw a friend die from cocaine ( massive heart attack)
Fair doos, but that isn't the same as watching someone who has used it daily for years (an addict, not an "over user") come off it, as I have. Withdrawal is a recognised issue and far more than Tuesday Blues. Tuesday Blues maybe a thing after a heavy weekend on it.
From the (unfortunatly named) wikipedia page of professor Nutt
Cocaine is seen as being highly addictive and physically harmful.
but as adults it’s up to us to assess the risks and make a decision
While this I think is fine in theory, in practice, not so much.
TJ do you have some links to back up your claim that cocaine isn’t addictive?
Yeah, I'd like to know as well, as I'm pretty sure cocaine is wildly addictive
I'm pretty sure Theresa Mays husband owns Europe's largest cannabis medical facility (grow room) and she had the cheek to try and enforce a zero tolerance drugs policy when she was PM.
I am not going to get involved in this thread any more. Drugs threads on here are like politics - ends up with loads of illinformed shouting
I gave my view and my reasoning. On addiction I have seen heroin withdrawal and benzos / alcohol withdrawal. I have never seen any cocaine withdrawal despite meeting heavy users in both person and professionally. Benzo withdrwal and alcoho;l withdrwal results in convulsions and can be deadly. cocaine withdrwal is on a totally differnt level
"It’s widely considered to be one of the most addictive substances in existence." I think this is a very disputed point. Alcohol, tobacco and benzos are much worse IMO
again here we come into definitions - to me the idea of"psychological addiction" is a very problematic one as if you include cocaine as addictive then exercise, playing bridge etc are also addictive. the whole concept of psychological addiction is a disputed one.
One of the problems with prohibition is that it makes doing decent research and finding the reality very difficult.
Prof Nutt ( brilliant name) probably has the best analysis I have see
My views are formed from what I have seen professionally and personally
“It’s widely considered to be one of the most addictive substances in existence.” I think this is a very disputed point.
Pretty much only disputed by you though, based on anecdotal evidence.
Are you disputing gambling addiction is real also?
I have never seen any cocaine withdrawal despite meeting heavy users in both person and professionally.
So you have met "heavy users", but not witnessed an addict withdraw?
30 seconds on a search engine will give you a list of physical and psychological symptoms of coke withdrawal that are far worse than the "Tuesday Blues" as it was put.
I see a war on Johnsons flagging poll numbers
I’m pretty sure Theresa Mays husband owns Europe’s largest cannabis medical facility (grow room) and she had the cheek to try and enforce a zero tolerance drugs policy when she was PM.“
Donks has been spending too much time on Facebook.
