[Closed] Vote "IN" camp only seem interested in economic outcome?

Falangaj, here's some evidence. From an unbiased source, which doesn't care about the in/out campaign. The overwhelming evidence is that immigrants are a good thing.

The idea that people come over here to claim benefits in enormous numbers is, I am afraid, a total fallacy. There was a report on this due to be issued earlier this year, the outline findings were issued but then it was official suppressed by Theresa May. It was fairly public (if you track immigration issues as, unfortunately, I have to) which was bizarre.

Also the idea that immigrants come here and send money home resulting in a net loss to the economy is, while true in some cases, not true.

The UK benefits from a net fiscal gain from migration of 0.46% of GDP. There are only a handful of countries in the EU that lose out from migration, notably Germany and France. Poland also loses out.

The difference between benefits and services claimed by immigrants and contributions from tax is, from reasonable sources, generally between +/-1% of GDP, and the majority of studies from unbiased sources show that there is a net gain from taxation from immigrants.

The Office of Budget Responsibility even predicts that more immigrants will, in the long term, reduce the national public debt. If there were to be zero net migration they say the public debt would be around £145bn by 2062, as opposed to £75bn with high net migration. This is based on the assumption of most immigrants being of working age.

All of this information is taken from various places on the Migration Observatory website.

http://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/fiscal-impact-immigration-uk

If you want to narrow this down specifically to the EEA then these immigrants pay 34% more in taxes than they receive in benefits and services.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/nov/05/migration-target-useless-experts

Aside from the possible criminal database issue, which I would suspect effects probably half of naff all of the incoming population, I don't see how anyone that does some actual research can object to free movement in the EU.

Everyone in the EU's taxes pays for the EU as a whole at some point, so there's no reason to say "you've not paid for your share so you can't come in to the UK".

We's still be a member of Europe though,

You appear to confusing the meaning of the word exit. We would only be 'in' Europe because its not possible to move to another continent.

Out campaign reminds me of the Scottish out campaign. Head->Sand->it'll be fine.

the root of all our problems - immigrants and welfare scroungers - its like a UKIP wet dream! 😯

Bogeymen next

He's such a great guy.

Op you seem to be focused on immigration and it's perceived impact. Well here's a couple of points to consider.

1. Illegal immigration is the same whether we are in or out.
2. We will have the same responsibility to asylum seekers in or out.
3. If we want a free trade deal we'll have agree to free movement of EU citizens anyway like the other European countries out of the EU with trade deals.
4. EU migrants tend to net contributors to their host country.
5. We don't have hordes of work capable people forced onto benefits by EU migrants to pick up the slack when the Poles go home.

EU immigration is a distraction from our real home grown issues of too many people being too dependant on benefits, this is a much more serious issue that will cause bigger problems than EU immigration ever has.

Anyway what do you think will happen, all the EU citizens will have their right to work revoked on day 1 of Brexit? That'll be a great start to our free trade deal negotiations, meantime we'll have to repatriate and rehome the millions of expat pensioners being expelled from the EU in retaliation.

It seems to me the Brexit brigade are prepared to jeopardise our future on the basis on some vague dislike of people not like them, I'll take the myopic economic arguments any day of the week.

Boring troll is boring

I'm not really trolling, that's just my current thinking at the moment. The only thing putting me off Brexit is all the anti immigration stuff that gets shared on facebook by the right wingers. Urgh; that's not a good reason to leave.

Being able to decide as a country what we want is though, surely?

thebees - Member
The impact of mass immigration is real. My daughter started school two years ago and had to go to her third choice school due to intake numbers...

See previous comments from others re. the problem not being due to immigrants but due to poor government planning (which is then blamed on all them forruns wot come over here, contribute to our economy, bastards the lot of 'em).

In response to the OP, it's not the "in" campaign, it's a number of independent bodies along with many many multinational companies.

Of course it's not a purely economic decision, but the initial "that particular organisation is full of in campaign supporters" argument of the brexiteers is wearing somewhat thin, so I'm not surprised they have chosen to change tack to "what about [insert undefinable thing here]".

And re. unelected EU imposing their will on people, I will explain once how EU laws are made:
1) European commission (unelected) suggests law.
2) European Parliament (elected from all member states) debates and approves/amends/rejects the law.
3) Elected leaders from each state have a final say on approving the law.

I don't really see how this is undemocratic, although of course it could be seen as a threat to our way of life if the rest of Europe has vastly different priorities/voting habits.

We need to get rid of the Tories which ever way we vote. Truly awful people.

Amen, brother.

The impact of mass immigration is real.

Yes, there will be impact from immigration. However, these aren't people who rock up and live like lords on £36 per week (that's the amount we pay per asylum seeker, as per our obligations to the UN). Sixty kids don't turn up without warning, instead someone somewhere has ensured that there's inadequate funding to cater for sixty kids. Eastern Europeans working here have tax and NIC deducted, they contribute every time they buy something in the shops that has VAT attached.

Likewise, someone, somewhere has decided to not build enough new council homes or affordable housing because of "The Market" or somesuch. These are harder issues to resolve than to simply blame the movement of people.

Blaming school place shortages and pressure on housing is a bit like blaming the symptom and not the underlying illness.

[ninja edit] I've also met Farage. He's an utter ****.

You appear to confusing the meaning of the word exit. We would only be 'in' Europe because its not possible to move to another continent.

We'd still be part of this though? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe

flanagaj - Member
I'll repeat my answer. Immigrants are a net benefit to the UK.
Evidence?

[url= http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Is+immigration+a+net+benefit+to+the+uk ]Here[/url]

What would Wolfie do?

[img] [/img]

I've also met Farage. He's an utter ****.

😀 don't spoil it!

Although I guess he must be an undercover racist/sexist/homophobe etc. etc. You've only got to look at the people who surround him.

We would only be 'in' Europe because its not possible to move to another continent.

The fact that you have Farage & Galloway in agreement is enough to make me consider staying in!

Always concerns me when opposite ends of the political spectrum are saying the same thing.....

[img] [/img]

[url= http://www.politicalcompass.org/uk2015 ]Source[/url]

Although I guess he must be an undercover racist/sexist/homophobe etc. etc

Undercover? His main selling point is being completely politically incorrect.

We would only be 'in' Europe because its not possible to move to another continent.
Tell that to Israel

I was going to say that. Perhaps we should run the EU on the same principles as the Eurovision song contest, and this country can return to greatness once again...

Care to tell us how they will be impacted?

Increased population due to uncontrolled immigration likely to be weighted towards low paid workers
Downward pressure on wages due the above = lower tax revenues
Our share of the inevitable euro bailout when Greece defaults (not we are members of Stability pact so have to pay up, remember Osbourne scuttling over to see Junker last time)
Economically bound to low growth Europe and unable to agree bespoke trade deals with vibrant Asian economies

Note those who say immigrants are a net benefit are including all those who come from US, Australia, India, China under controlled visa based immigration and come to specific generally high skilled and paid work

No one I have spoken to is passionately IN - IN is a campaign of reluctants and those who still believe reform in the direction we would like is possible

The following a campaign video from Leave so you can take this as you would any party political broadcast

Eurovision song contest

Vote "IN" camp only seem interested in economic outcome?

nope, i'll be voting in partly because i like the idea of 'europe', i like being european, i like being part of the bigger picture.

there are some really cool european projects*, and i like them, i'm happy to have (in some small way) helped fund them.

(*scientific research, environmental protection, urban regeneration, workers rights, etc.)

apparently that means i'm negative and myopic...?

too many people being too dependant on benefits

As to over-crowding in schools that would require investment in schools rathern than cutting the budget.

There's a simple Swiss like solution to our over-crowding & pension cost issues 😆

multinational companies.

Always concerns me when opposite ends of the political spectrum are saying the same thing.....

jambalaya - Member
Note those who say immigrants are a net benefit are including all those who come from US, Australia, India, China under controlled visa based immigration and come to specific generally high skilled and paid work

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/european-immigrants-contribute-5bn-to-uk-economy-but-non-eu-migrants-cost-118bn-9840170.html ]You sure?[/url]

flanagaj - Member
Are you honestly not concerned with the direction the EU is going? They are stuck following a plan that is not working and has never worked.

Like many others, I'm concerned that the EU isn't governed or able to deliver effectively.

However... what the hell do we expect if we continue to send the C-team or worse to the top table?

It's high time that the UK stood up in the influential, heavyweight role it can and should be playing on behalf of civilised northern European countries.

There is plenty of level-headed - and sceptical, counter-weight - thought to be expressed on behalf of the Scandi, Benelux countries etc. That's the UK's natural place and, right now, we are not making much of our hand.

The UK is a great counter-weight to French and German influences, who will dominate if we can't be bothered. Only if we get our A-team on the case can we expect to have the best results.

The conflation with immigration is a red herring. In fact, the whole referendum is a waste of time.

I am resolutely in - but, FFS - we must make the most of being one of the big European beasts with lots of strong opinions and interests.

Note those who say immigrants are a net benefit are including all those who come from US, Australia, India, China under controlled visa based immigration and come to specific generally high skilled and paid work

Not true, the stats on EU-only migration are very clear

1. 98%+ come to work or study
2. Positive economic impact
3. No evidence to suggest that they have negative impact on wages
4. They increased the demand for labour not just the supply => win-win for labour market and higher tax revenue

Apart from that... 😉

So without the aforesaid immigrants all those old people (who seem to rant about the immigrants) wouldn't get their pension.

IFS published a report today showing 48.5% of working people in the UK pay no tax at all

nope, i'll be voting in partly because i like the idea of 'europe', i like being european, i like being part of the bigger picture.

An immigrant in a low paid job, e.g. £15k or even £20k pa is not paying enough tax to cover nhs, police and other services they are consuming, they are certainly not paying anyone's pension
IFS published a report today showing 48.5% of working people in the UK pay no tax at all

This was what I was trying to argue earlier, but it seemed to be poo poo'd as I got the impression that migrants benefit the UK economy. I was trying to find a figure at what point you are paying more in than you cost the state for existing.

* I thought the police was covered by council tax though?

flanagaj - Member

I too like europe, but it doesn't mean we all have to be in bed together ?

i'm not even sure what that means?

I'm on holiday in a non EU country. In the evening to for the restaurant the gents have to wear a collar, trousers and enclosed shoes. I really object to wearing shoes on a tropical island in 90 degree heat. The ladies don't have to. In an EU country I would have worn flip flops and moaned about discrimination with the full weight of the ECHR behind me.
Out here it is you want to eat , you wear your shoes.

@Lifer - young people tend not to use the NHS but they do use schools for their families and if they stay they will become increasingly expensive. So current figures show an overly healthy picture, its the longer term you need to look at. Also there was a stat which showed 60% of EU immigrants received some form of in work benefits wth the average payment £6k pa. This is a perfect area for factcheck although I suspect it's very difficult to get good data out of the government (for obvious reasons)

Yes workers have ha no impact on productivity do they - Jamba you are meant to be a 'business' person, why do most businesses spend all that money on employing workers? Have a think.

5% of our company are Polish, they've all made their lives over here, bought houses, spend WEs spending their cash at DIY stores, doing up kitchens etc. They actually fly back home for dental / medical stuff as the standard is higher apparently....

I too like europe

as does Corbyn

Does he though? AFAIK he hasn't come out & categorically stated his position..

Rather, it seems the Labour Party are more in the Remain camp from what I can see.

Can I raise a pertinent point at this stage.

If we leave, what impact will this have on the price of Kronenburg and manchego cheese?

Now I'm not saying that I'm going to base my decision purely on this. But its, you know... an issue...

[img] http://offlinehbpl.hbpl.co.uk/news/OKM/8FDF5772-9A53-5B39-FF86520967B18D05.jp g" target="_blank">http://offlinehbpl.hbpl.co.uk/news/OKM/8FDF5772-9A53-5B39-FF86520967B18D05.jp g"/> [/img]

jambalaya - Member

.. there was a stat which showed 60% of EU immigrants received some form of in work benefits wth the average payment £6k pa. ...

and the figures for 'born and bred' Brits...?

5% of our company are Polish, they've all made their lives over here, bought houses, spend WEs spending their cash at DIY stores, doing up kitchens etc. They actually fly back home for dental / medical stuff as the standard is higher apparently....

and the figures for 'born and bred' Brits...?

IFS published a report today showing 48.5% of working people in the UK pay no tax at all

Doesn't mean they don't contribute though, does it? Their work generates business for their employer which then pays taxes.

And flanag - your arguments also seem to be founded on the principle that immigration is bad. Is that because you don't want foreigners here? Even though it can be shown that they benefit the economy?

too many people too dependent on benefits

As someone else has said, the state pension accounts for most of our benefit costs - although the pensioners' argument is that they've paid their dues their entire working lives and are entitled to something.

Let's look at benefits for a minute. The BBC has a good piece from 2014 [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29898083 ]BBC[/url]

Now that's the global picture of spending. It's easy to see a chunk of orange and blame "scroungers", but what we've ended up doing is to persecute sick people and in some cases even blame people for contracting terminal cancer and deny them benefits.

[url= http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-life-stories/boy-battling-leukaemia-fed-foodbanks-5068514 ]The Mirror[/url]

Now, we all know that billions of pounds disappear offshore each year, to avoid being taxed. Should we not classify untaxed earnings for the super-rich as benefits too? Likewise, I agree that Working Tax Credits being paid to above average earners in the previous parliament is/was obscene - but for that I blame the cost of living and housing, which have not been tackled at source.

Sorry, I know this is a fair few miles away from the debate, but I feel very strongly about how welfare is misused to malign people.

almost 50% of EU migrants are officially highly skilled

%age claiming benefits is very small - they come here to work or to study

as for https://fullfact.org/immigration/do-eu-immigrants-contribute-134-every-1-they-receive/ Fact Check, here we go

Not great reading for the Brexit boys, another domino topples over

Don't know but they would be my priority

F*** you too. My wife's an immigrant.

An immigrant in a low paid job, e.g. £15k or even £20k pa is not paying enough tax to cover nhs, police and other services they are consuming, they are certainly not paying anyone's pension

IFS published a report today showing 48.5% of working people in the UK pay no tax at all

Wow where do you get these passes that make you exempt from all tax?

As they also said that 56.2 % of the adult population pay income tax then someone has failed to understand what they actually said
It would help immensely if you said what you meant rather than said something that was obviously untrue.

Sorry, I know this is a fair few miles away from the debate, but I feel very strongly about how welfare is misused to malign people.