Forum menu
Any answers then?
Why do you think people including the police should do [i]unpaid[/i] overtime?
You see in public services such as healthcare and police that "little bit extra" you refer to is every shift every day pretty much
Why is it bad management to want to work your contracted hours?
Oh - and what service do you work in where yo have a legal obligation to stay until your relief arrives?
JW - Well, just seems a little like <ahem> certain </ahem> people are all too keen to take the view that, and I'll quote
working for free is allowing your employer to to get away with underpaying and is abusive
But then seem to forget all the extra little things that self same employer gives them something that they don't have to... like paying them for time carrying out union activities perhaps, little things like that.
Seems to me that my relationship with my employer works both ways - I end up working events or staying late to finish up my workload in busy periods - in return my employer is fairly flexible if I need to go to the dentists, get away early one evening, doesn't kick up a fuss if I turn up late one morning because the traffics bad - you know the type of stuff... no big issue if I go on the interweb and talk bollocks on mountainbike forums if the workload is a little quiet sometimes, ahem.
Act like a little kid, you get treated like a little kid perhaps?
Seems to me that my relationship with my employer works both ways - I end up working events or staying late to finish up my workload in busy periods - in return my employer is fairly flexible if I need to go to the dentists, get away early one evening, doesn't kick up a fuss if I turn up late one morning because the traffics bad - you know the type of stuff...
And that is in effect being paid for the overtime - time off in lieu, All I ever got working in the NHS
Edit - of course actually very difficult to take as I am legally obliged to stay until my relief arrives - and if I am late on duty then the person I am relieving cannot go home.
JW - pretty much constant to varying extents, but the concept of overtime is simply of no relevance/completely alien to me, my team or my occupation, hence my OP. And that is true across lots of different types of work. But the results speak for themselves - performance, happiness and pride in our work. Hard to be globally competitive with a different attitude in my experience - hence the extreme analogy of Seb Coe (but he also knew how to manage physical stress and not to over do things!).
Hence, I go back to my OP which started that "I have no interest in the sides here" (which TJ continues to ignore as usual) but merely interested in the observed differences. And to avoid being mis-read I edited the first post to make sure that I wasn't interpreted as saying that people who expected OT pay or didn't do overtime without thinking, couldn't/didn't have pride in their work.
Ah Z11 - you mean you behave and are treated as mature adults. How refreshing!! 😉
TJ - No its not!
I don't keep a record, they don't keep a record - its not time off in lieu, its a relationship of mutual trust and respect, and goes far beyond hours worked.
maybe if you took your rebel hat off and treated your employer with a little more respect and a little less demanding your "rights", you would have got a little more?
So unsuprisingly no answers then.
Its really funny how you can admit to having no experience of something yet slate in a rather patronising manner those who do
[img] 
[/img]
No zulu - it simply does not work like that in my world and cannot because of the nature of the service.
If I arrive late someone else goes home late. I cannot leave early unless someone else is there to cover. I cannot take a dentist appointment in my working time.
Its nothing to do with attitudes - its to do with the nature of the service and the legal requirement for cover.
But then seem to forget all the extra little things that self same employer gives them something that they don't have to... like paying them for time carrying out union activities perhaps, little things like that.
Zulu, wrong.
Since you're about, are you a member of a union? I asked a couple of times before but obviously it got lost in the fog of leftist handwringing. Unions have different quality relationships with different employers. Asda/walmart being the opposite end of the spectrum as I see it.
Unions have a different relationship with the NHS, who are [i]obliged[/i] to release a certain percentage of staff or staff hours for union activities, it is not them being nice or generous, or staff-side reps swinging the lead. That my union-rep colleague does the other 50% of her union work for free is a credit to her dedication. She also does a good deal of h&s work for the hospital (in a positive rather than ambulance-chasing way) that she would not be qualified to do had her union not trained her to do (at zero cost to the NHS). I know it was zero cost to the NHS because I am her line manager and I had to make her do the course on her days off because she had already used her quota of 'union days' our trust allowed at the time. Value for money and all that. 😈
who are obliged to release a certain percentage of staff or staff hours for union activities,
Legal duty for employers to release staff for union activities - no legal duty for employers to pay them for much of that time, thats not the employers responsibility, or duty.
I don't keep a record, they don't keep a record - its not time off in lieu, its a relationship of mutual trust and respect, and goes far beyond hours worked.
And theres the rub. I know plenty of fellow nurses (and other healthcare workers) who have, over years of service put in loads of overtime only to have been on the recieving end of a disciplinary over too long a break.
One community nurse I know of was accused of fraud because he was seen by a senior manager shopping during working hours but hadn't logged it as taking time back. EDIT and he always put over and above the hours.
I keep a full account of my days activities and any time I take back to the minute not because I am some anally retentive but because I am scared of being accused of taking time not owed to me.
Legal duty for employers to release staff for union activities - no legal duty for employers to pay them for that time, thats not the employers responsibility, or duty.
Accepetd. But [url= http://www.plymouthpct.nhs.uk/CorporateInformation/policiesprocedures/Documents/Workforce%20Development%20Documents/TU%20Recog%20Agmt%20v1.1.pdf ]my trust's policy of working with unions[/url] starts out right at the top by making the point of unions being benificial to both employer and employee and so make efforts for union meetings to be within (paid) time for staff side reps, and instruct managers to move night shifts and weekends around to enable them to attend key union duties. It's a bit blurby but it's all in there and in the public domain so to speak.
Are you in a union zulu? What is your employer's relationship like with your union or the unions that represent your colleagues?
But, like I said - its a good example of the employer offering their employee's something over and above what they absolutely have to - so cast against the attitude of certain employees that [i]"working for free is allowing your employer to to get away with underpaying and is abusive"[/i] I'd suggest that an attitude check is in order... give and take, swings and roundabouts, call it what you will.
On your question on whether I'm in a union. I'm not in one at the moment, I have been in one in the past, and for what its worth my dad was a shop steward (while my mum was in the offices getting phone call death threats from members of other unions as my dads union refused to go out)...
I don't understand your problem with TJ there then zulu: your dad being a shop steward must mean you understand the difference between working for your emoployer for free and working for your union and therfore your colleagues (as opposed to employer) for free then. ❓
Unions would seem to have moved on a lot since those days though: there was no ill feeling let alone death threats in my workplace between anyone about going out or not going out on strike on 30.11.11