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The profit motive isn't the only reason to be concerned
Private sector outsourcing soon leads to questions about what should be state provided vs what should be provided by the individual. Top "state funded schools" asking parents for a top up fee? NHS asking for co-payments for drugs?
Local Police asking for contribution from "high risk" communities in inner cities?
Believe me once the private sector gets its hands on the provision of services we all need they'll start to apply commercial modelling which requires differentials in quality to be paid by individuals
MC
I thought the Tories were supposed to be the party of law and order?
Hopefully this will be the straw that breaks the camel's back for their own supporters and exposes Cameron and his chums for the frauds they are.
time for the lib dems to MTFU at their spring conference and put an end to this tory government's fetish for selling stuff.
every day various films and computer games set in the future become more and more realistic.
Well there should be plenty of new jobs for the failed coppers who resign or get the sack for being incompetetent.
I wonder what incentive schemes a private Police force would have, arrest 2 get one free 😯 Chief Constables six figure bonus, payoffs to criminals to commit less crime 😕
May the farce be with us
and it is
Nationalised Service Cost = Privatised Service Cost + Shareholder Profit
Either:
* Overall costs go up
* Staff salaries/quality goes down
* Quality service goes down
Or all three. It's blind pursuit of an ideology over pragmatism, IMO.
Privatised fire service is next the only reason the private sector won't take it on now is the pension liability and the gov are doing their best to sort that now. It's already creeping in around the edges failing mind you but bieng bailed out.
buzz-lightyear - Member
Nationalised Service Cost = Privatised Service Cost + Shareholder Profit
+ costs of managing the contracts + disconnect between public parts and private parts (ohh er) + distrust
News International has done an amazing job of running the met for years. What could possibly go wrong with privatising the other police forces and letting some other corporations manipulate law and order for personal gain?
Nationalised Service Cost = Privatised Service Cost + Shareholder ProfitEither:
* Overall costs go up
* Staff salaries/quality goes down
* Quality service goes downOr all three. It's blind pursuit of an ideology over pragmatism, IMO.
You're ignoring (hypothetical) savings that can be made by (hypothetically) more efficient private sector management. Whether these really exist is of course a different matter!
They are probably working on a way to privatise the air. That said, much of what the ConDems are doing merely builds on the dubious legacy of NuLav (especially in the NHS).
And it's no use preaching about the efficiency of the private sector, if the end result is blanket Crapita-isation of our infrastructure & services.... as is happening.
Good.
I for one am sick and tired of seeing tax payers money wasted on Sting and his self-indulgent life of tantric sex, bad acting and weekend breaks in the rainforest.
I shuddered when I read that article at the mention of G4S.
All my dealings with them through work have convinced me they only recruit 2nd rate estate agents as managers, never have I come across such a bunch of arrogant little twerps who lie at every turn and then try and charge for work not done!!
You're ignoring (hypothetical) savings that can be made by (hypothetically) more efficient private sector management. Whether these really exist is of course a different matter!
What this 'efficiency' usually boils down to is cutting corners, reducing ordinary staff pay and conditions, and taking a big slice for shareholders and executives.
You're ignoring (hypothetical) savings that can be made by (hypothetically) more efficient private sector management. Whether these really exist is of course a different matter!
Haha, you're really selling it ain't you?
+ of course there is the security of knowing that whatever performance targets that are set for a private company will be comprehensively gamed to ensure that the appropriate senior mangers will get their bonuses.
The thing about the efficiency argument is that it is stupid. First and foremost I want my public services to effective. Efficiency isn't about doing a job well, it is about doing a job in the cheapest possible way.
The thing about the efficiency argument is that it is stupid. First and foremost I want my public services to effective
At any cost or do you put a limit on how much tax you want to pay? Isn't there a relationship between cost/wastage when talking about [url= http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/efficient ]efficiency[/url]?
There are lots of countries with privately run security forces already, so they at least have a model they can draw on. The good thing is they'll be able to apply the social enterprise model of a country like Afghanistan for example, where the policing is subsidised by the locally owned pharmaceutical industry.
The rich thing is that Cameron's concerned about letting Scotland have independence, while preparing to section up England and Wales back up amongst a group of suit wearing warlords.
davidjones15 - MemberAt any cost or do you put a limit on how much tax you want to pay? Isn't there a relationship between cost/wastage when talking about efficiency?
CaptJon - Member
First and foremost
What I find interesting is how many G4S type cash holding lock ups have been done over by proper blaggers, and they had an "inside man". Look at that latest prison spring, lots of vans to choose from, no idea when it would be leaving, inside job? who was the contractor? oh yes, G4S. People like to moan about public sector pay and pensions, but for the majority of coppers, doing something silly like that you risk losing your pension. G4S will employ people and pay them peanuts while treating them like crap. Private security "checking" your garage is safe at night while clocking your lovely MTB collection? Lovely backhander from the well prepared burglars safe in the knowledge the local private "plod" is not around. Cats and dogs living together in harmony. The end of the world.
You've lost me CaptJon, effieciency, which you claim to be stupid, is not about being the cheapest, it's clearly about achieving the greatest return for the investment made with the least amount of wastage. And as soulwood has so kindly pointed out, we can see the problems of how inefficient low paid security services can be.
Controlling a service is not the same as providing it: you hire me to build your house extension, do you really care who I hire to do it? Assuming the quality is acceptable, and the work is delivered on time?
However if you then let anybody wander in and out when they feel like it,I would be unhappy. Prison services up here are "run" by Reliance,rather poorly. Of course the Police would be different. Is there any other country in the world does this?
policemen dont make thier own uniforms or serve in the canteen so why do they have repair thier own vehicles, take finger prints, stand guard on the cells etc.
the more bobbies on the streets the better.
GMP have more coppers at work at 9 am on a monday morning than any other time.. crime hot spot.. not. the MET spend 15% of thier budget on paying pensions.. is that a best use of policing budget paying for 48 yr olds to be sat at home or playing golf for the rest of thier lives having had 4x thier annual salary upon retirement and index linked60% of final salary every year?
it isnt those drawing 25k benifits who are draining the economy its those on 30-40k drawing pensions and having jobs on the side..
take finger prints, stand guard on the cells etc.
PCSOs do that here.
I want high standards and integrity from my police force - not lowest bidder.
"48 yr olds to be sat at home or playing golf for the rest of thier lives having had 4x thier annual salary upon retirement and index linked60% of final salary every year?
it isnt those drawing 25k benifits who are draining the economy its those on 30-40k drawing pensions and having jobs on the side.."
WTF? Someone who has worked all their life is a drain on the economy? But not life long benefit claimants that have never contributed anything to society? I don't know many 48yr old coppers retired on £30-40k, that pension would only be for Chief Supers or Chiefs. But because their job is a bit more cushty, going to meetings in offices, they tend to stay in post until their late 60's. Normal coppers are still fighting with drunken teenagers when they are 55 yrs old. And then they will draw about £16k pension. Daily Mail muppet.
I want high standards and integrity from my police force - not lowest bidder.
I couldn't agree more, but neither do I want fatknacker wasting taxpayers money until he gets his pension. There is too much slack that needs to be taken in, the current system is inefficient so another solution must be sought. Privatising spome elements is a start. Believing that if it isn't the current way then it must be the polar opposite without even considering the middle ground is no way to react either.
Where does the lowest bidder come into it, no one in the tendering business goes for the lowest bidder, do they?
Lowest bidder is the usual way hence filthy hospitals
Lowest bidder is the usual way hence filthy hospitals
Fair enough, but that doesn't mean that theoretically privatization is wrong, does it? It means that the currently accepted way is wrong, but in the right hands it could work. Equally that under public sector control we are seeing wastage and in the right hands under public control the Police force/public health service could function a lot better. It's not quite as black and white as you have put it, is it?
Yes - experience says every privatised public service is more expensive with a worse service and more waste
Davidjones
I can assure you there is very litte slack left in the police
We are all working bloody hard with ever decreasing staff to do a good job
You will hear chief constables telling you that the cuts are hard, but the service to the public will stay the same
Don't believe that spin, the police service to the public will become a lot worse over the next 3 - 5 years because of cuts
If you think police are fatknacker wasters
Just wait till the money hungry smack heads are coming into your house unchallenged
... king hell - this is soul destroying.
I thought I'd become totally immunised to the bollox spoken on STW, but perhaps not.
I wonder at the credentials of some of you waxing hysterical on here and what you really know about the situation - which appears to be less than zero.
Everybody wants greater efficiency in the public sector, particularly the police, but I can tell you this is turning into a dreadful inversion of priorities.
We (the UK) have the best police service in the world - I have no doubt about that whatsoever, far from perfect but definitely the lead.
Be careful for what you wish. I have very real concerns that this could be profit over people and the erosion of accountability and expertise.
easygirl +1
Yes - experience says every privatised public service is more expensive with a worse service and more waste
I was talking theoretically, but don't worry if that's too complicated. 😉
I would also say that in my experience there is a huge amount of wastage in the current system. I'm quite sure you will argue differently.
I do like the way that when people feel threatened, they come out with some bizarre statements.
Have these good police people who are being pushed to the limits ever considered doing unpaid overtime? Of course not...
Everybody want greater efficiency in the public sector? Why do you kick and scream everytime monitoring and measuring is mentioned?
Fair enough, but that doesn't mean that theoretically privatization is wrong, does it? It means that the currently accepted way is wrong, but in the right hands it could work.
Well, theoreticaly, communism, fascism and anarchism work perfectly as well. Sadly, human nature gets in the way.
Free marketeers are as dogmatic, deluded and unwilling admit doubt as any religious fundamentalist, but potentially far more dangerous.
Free marketeers are as dogmatic, deluded and unwilling admit doubt as any religious fundamentalist, but potentially more dangerous.
And almost as blind as those that aren't even prepared to contemplate an alternative option.
Dogmatic is something I'm not often (read: ever) accused of being, but if it help your argument sit in your mind more easily, go for it. 🙂
Is there anything more dogmatic than "public sector is the only way and anything else is rubbish"?
Have these good police people who are being pushed to the limits ever considered doing unpaid overtime? Of course not...
Davidjones - did you seriously suggest the police should be doing unpaid overtime ie working for free?
Do you actually have any understanding of how the police force works? A coper goes of shift when their work is finished not at a particular time ie compulsory overtime.
If a big fight breaks out in the town centre 15 mins before their shift is due to finish they will be sent to it, they will not be able to go off duty until all detainees are processed etc - that could be a couple of hours later.
You wan them to do that for free?
Privatisation - is always more expensive for a worse service - this is not refusing to contemplate an alternative - this is the knowledge from experience
I'm willing to explore alternatives - but when that alternative has been proven to be wrong on every single occaision when it has been implemented, I'd be pretty stupid to advocate it's introduction again, wouldn't I?
'But we'll get it right this time'.
Yes. Of course you will.
Albert Einstein.Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Don't always agree with TJ but in this case I very much do.
Never mind the public sector even in the private sector where once stuff was done in house it was farmed out because it was "cheaper" well for the first year the headline costs were lower but then the wheels started to fall off.
Our firm farmed out security & cleaning and now we spend more & spend longer managing the useless firms doing it, we have a high turnover of staff in these two lines where previously we had people staying for 20 years+ all this means a poorer service.
Interesting to see the different perspectives here and I'm not particularly interested in sides, but one post sums up the basic difference (to me at least) between large parts of the public and private sector.
TandemJeremy - Member
Have these good police people who are being pushed to the limits ever considered doing unpaid overtime? Of course not...
Davidjones - did you seriously suggest the police should be doing unpaid overtime ie working for free?[b]Do you actually have any understanding of how the police force works? A coper goes of shift[/b] when their work is finished not at a particular time ie compulsory overtime.
If a big fight breaks out in the town centre 15 mins before their shift is due to finish they will be sent to it, they will not be able to go off duty until all detainees are processed etc -[b] that could be a couple of hours later.
You wan them to do that for free?[/b]
In my experience, this question would not even need to be asked in large parts of the private sector. If there is an important part of your job that needs doing that requires a bit longer on the end of the day/work at the weekend.....you simply do it and, in my case, would want to do it. Pride in your work and your occupation - I would not expect extra pay either (edit - not suggesting that the alternative view negates pride in your work BTW!!). Perhaps this is why I find it hard to understand many of the different alternative perspectives on here!
WTF is a shift (rhetorical question BTW)? Work is finished when its finished not when the clock ticks past 5 or whenever. I have never worked the set hours in my contract at any stage in my career.
More fool you.
working for free is allowing your employer to to get away with underpaying and is abusive.
You are right team hurtmore - you do have no understanding of many things outside your worldview.
In my experience, this question would not even need to be asked in large parts of the private sector. If there is an important part of your job that needs doing that requires a bit longer on the end of the day/work at the weekend.....you simply do it and, in my case, would want to do it.
'In my experience' - I suspect you work in a rather well paid sector of private industry that employs a very small part of the working population (care to tell us where/what?).
Do you think that the people who work in the shops you use, clean the office you work in, serve food in the canteen, work on the farms that provide you with your food, drive the trucks etc etc happily work overtime for nothing?
your views normally deserve some respect, but on this occasion you reveal how isolated you are from much of the population.
teamhurtmore - MemberInteresting to see the different perspectives here and I'm not particularly interested in sides, but one post sums up the basic difference (to me at least) between large parts of the public and private sector.
TandemJeremy - Member
Have these good police people who are being pushed to the limits ever considered doing unpaid overtime? Of course not...
Davidjones - did you seriously suggest the police should be doing unpaid overtime ie working for free?Do you actually have any understanding of how the police force works? A coper goes of shift when their work is finished not at a particular time ie compulsory overtime.
If a big fight breaks out in the town centre 15 mins before their shift is due to finish they will be sent to it, they will not be able to go off duty until all detainees are processed etc - that could be a couple of hours later.
You wan them to do that for free?
In my experience, this question would not even need to be asked in large parts of the private sector. If there is an important part of your job that needs doing that requires a bit longer on the end of the day/work at the weekend.....you simply do it and, in my case, would want to do it. Pride in your work and your occupation - I would not expect extra pay either (edit - not suggesting that the alternative view negates pride in your work BTW!!). Perhaps this is why I find it hard to understand many of the different alternative perspectives on here!
WTF is a shift (rhetorical question BTW)? Work is finished when its finished not when the clock ticks past 5 or whenever. I have never worked the set hours in my contract at any stage in my career.
Now I am confused.
When I go to Tesco and they're closing no-one volunteers to stay an extra hour so I can wander round and do my shopping at leisure.
When I call BT cos my internet/phone are down none of their staff come out in their own time to fix it.
When the LBS hasn't sorted my bike by 5, they don't seem to be all that keen onstaying for another 2 or 3 hours to fix it so I can ride the following day.
When I use a myriad of other services/shops they all seem to want to close when they are done, not when I want them.
I was sure most of them were in the private sector.