[Closed] Unreliable car brands?

[i]Certain models might have faults, but I think if buying second hand the reliability of the car is more likely to be good or bad due to treatment by the previous owner[/i]

This.

I always have my cars serviced at less than manufacturers intervals, and also any preventative maintenance that is required.

As for 'French cars are crap'; 160k in 4 years in a Xantia with zero days off the road plus ran a Peugeot Mi16 past 150k.

Currently in a Vectra, big solid car that is cheap to run. I put 70k on a previous company Vectra in 2 years, with only servicing, tyres and one set of pads.

It's not random. They do studies, and some brands do a lot better than others.

People always pipe up with "I had X and it exploded after 5 miles/drive round the world 8 times" - you can't tell enough from asking on a forum. You need to look at actual stats for brands, and knowledgeable reports from people who fix/analyse cars for a living.

Having said all that - most cars are pretty decent, so it may be worth getting a car that's statistically slightly less reliable if it's a car you really want to drive or own, it's a good deal, it's in the right place at the right time and so on.

As for 'French cars are crap'; 160k in 4 years in a Xantia with zero days off the road plus ran a Peugeot Mi16 past 150k.

And you get this - people who've had two or three cars from a particular brand and not had an issue, and are therefore convinced that the brand is perfectly reliable even though their sample size is far too small to draw a conclusion!

true BR

always worrys me when a seller says - really reliable has not needed anything except servicing for years....

screams of big bills in store......

molgrips - you can't tell enough from asking on a forum. You need to look at actual stats for brands, and knowledgeable reports from people who fix/analyse cars for a living.

Have you got any links to these stats molgrips? I'm not looking for actual buying advice here at the minute, but since I am looking it's a subject that's been on my mind. Purely musing as to whether or not some brands are actually rubbish (eg. anything french or italian) and whether some brands are bulletproof (anything german or japanese).

No - have a look yourself.

JD Power
Parkers
Honest John
What Car

etc etc etc

So, as random as I expected it appears.

Yep!

I wouldn't ever have a Ford again after my '05 Fiesta. It only ever broke down twice in 135k (alternator both times, the second one was the French garage's fault as they fitted a cheap recon part that lasted a month) but it had a constant list of issues from day one. It was more the attitude of Ford that put me off, they didn't want to help at all even when the gearbox lunched itself at 3k! I kept it for 9 years though, mainly to make it suffer, and used it as a van. My cousin's one is older and has been faultless.. 😕
For balance, I had a '04 Ka before that which was fantastic! Never missed a beat, wish I'd kept it TBH.

That reliability.com page is a funny one. They've created their index a particular way, but I'm not convinced it's all that clever.

The Jazz wins and the Passat does really badly. But the average mileage of Passats in their study is 65k miles and Jazz only 25k. Doesn't seem to be taking mileage into account, which is stupid. Of course there'll be more failures in any car if the ones in your study have been driven 2.5 times as far...

It also takes into account the cost of a repair, which is strange. Of course Mercedes repairs are going to be more, but given you've bought a Mercedes you probably have more money than average so it's less likely to be a big deal. One repair in 100k miles at a cost of £500 is likely to be less of a bummer than 5 repairs to a Fiesta at a cost of £100 each to someone who can only afford a £1k car.

I've had mostly cars from VAG or Peugeot/ Citroen over the years.

The French ones did better on reliability, no question about it.

Best though was my MK3 Cavalier with the Isuzu TD engine. It was thrashed mercilessly for 5 years back when I used to be a great fan of making progress. It ate wishbones (cheap and easy to replace) and that was about it realy.

On an interesting tangent, I see Toyota are now selling a van called the Proace. Also known as Fiat Scudo/ Citroen Dispatch/ Peugeot Expert.
With Toyota's reliability rep, they must have plenty faith in it? I've got the Citroen version, my second one of this current shape and it's great.
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molgrips - Member

That reliability.com page is a funny one. They've created their index a particular way, but I'm not convinced it's all that clever.

Not clever at all. The mazda premacy is 19th on that list. Checking into it, it only seems to suffer from 3 types of fault out of 10 possible categories. 50% braking, 33% engine and 16% suspension. everything else is fine.

It says on the site that the minimum sample size is 50. I'm sure that's adequate to get a good impression of reliability on an extremely rare car, but it's a drop in the water in comparison to the numbers of some cars on the road.

Aston Martin - about as reliable as Michael Fish's weather forecast.

With Toyota's reliability rep, they must have plenty faith in it?

Ok but if it's a Toyota it probably comes with Toyota engines, no? Could have different dampers etc specced, and different electronics too?

How much is actually shared in these shared platform cars?

hora - Member

Honda Accord if you need to carry paying passengers.

Well, unless of course you mean the pre-facelift MK7 which has a very un-Honda like list of known faults from headlamps that fill with water (mot fail) electric boot lids on the estate which fail (and lock you out) shorting fuseboxes which 'brick' them, sat-nav units which fail (and take the heating and radio functions with them) and that's before you even get started on the Diesel version which is a turd.

Worst car I ever owned, it beat the Mondeo I have after on points only because it cost 5 times as much.

In my limited experience the manufacturer isn't the be-all-and-end-all Mercedes and BMW used to be a by word for reliability but they both sell cars made by other people in other factories and have dropped some turds on the market. If you want trouble free motoring buy a car at the end of the model's lifecycle, not the start - most cars will be revised throughout their life in response to warranty claims and have a 'face-lift' half way through - yes externally it usually means a new grill (hence the name) but they will address the issues that's costing them money with warranty work.

Check for forums about that model, there's usually one, if I had I would have NEVER bought the Honda, most will have sections on known faults so you can at least check for them before you buy.

And even then there's an element of pot luck about it - there's a theory of course that like most consumer items there's a certain degree of in-built obsolescence in cars, a point when the manufacture knows a major item is likely to fail and write it off - they used to say it's 10 years, but I suspect some are shorter. VAG do tend to be better than that, there's Vans and Van based cars tend to do well and my old Passat was used an abused by my dad, me, back to my dad and still works perfectly - it's done 150k miles and in 15 has broken down exactly once - the alternator failed. But it's a 2.5 TDI and not blighted by same fault as the PD engine ones.

How much is actually shared in these shared platform cars?

[url= http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/toyota/proace ]Everything but the badge by the looks of it.[/url]

"Ok but if it's a Toyota it probably comes with Toyota engines, no? Could have different dampers etc specced, and different electronics too?

How much is actually shared in these shared platform cars?"

do you honestly believe what you just wrote there ?

what about merc kangoos ?

change the badge and gullible fools will believe something like what you wrote....

The engines aren't Toyota, it's the Ford/PSA 1.6 or 2.0, as found in a squillion other cars/vans.

How long before there's a choice of ten or so engines shared among every car built?

My 09 plate Skoda octavia VRs that I bought as an ex demonstrator with 400 miles on the clock was seen by 8 RAC men in less than 2 years or regrettable ownership.

Bag of crap that was. Always let down by a sensor going out.

Wont touch VW group cars now

Always let down by a sensor going out.

Wont touch VW group cars now

That's my experience of VW also, based on owning two Passats. I can largely forgive the first one, a B5.5, as it was cheap to run but the second, a B6, combined shocking running costs with the worst reliability of any car I've ever had the misfortune to own (beating a comically badly made Fiat Uno into second place). There was never actually anything wrong with the main components themselves, but the dash lit up like Regent St in December due to failed sensors giving false positives, each of which came with a £500 price tag. Wretched. And it was coma-inducingly dull.

Not had a problem with our current Audi A6 tho', apart from dim-witted school run mums reversing into it on a regular basis. So boring it's invisible!

My other ingrained car prejudice is that all Fiats come with electrical failure fitted as standard. That's based on having owned a few.

do you honestly believe what you just wrote there ?

No, I have no idea - it was an actual question, not rhetoric.

My next big car will probably be a Passat. If that ends up a turkey, then maybe that'll put me off 🙂

I've had a few Hondas now and they've all been faultless (even the Type R's). Not had much luck with VW had a few golfs but spent a lot on parts, water pumps, window mechs, suspension parts etc etc but my current runabout a Seat Mii Sport has been great for the first 20k.
My wife's Accord estate needs a a couple of hundred spending on suspension bushings/drop links soon but it's up to 125k miles so not unexpected, otherwise just servicing & tyres which have been cheap.
I like Honda they make well thought out, reliable transport.

Consistently worst seem to be Renault everyone I know who has owned one has sworn they won't buy another.

Does Honda share anything with anyone? (besides the Rover 10 years ago)

Can only echo whats been said, had some great French cars and some absolute dogs, usually electrical problems caused by poor design/component quality, blocked drain holes resulting in water getting into fuse and relay boxes. The build quality and materials is nearly always worse with the frenchies though, weird things break that shouldn't.

VW/VAG group cars are no where near as reliable as people think, many owners seem to keep quiet about it as well! there have been many common problems spanning all there brands, off the top my head, coil packs, MAF's, dirty throttle body valves, poor door seals, sloppy cable change gearboxes, premature syncromesh wear, flasher unit relay failures; although the build quality, materials, fit and Finnish tends to be pretty good.

Every car i've owned has had problems of some kind or another but its only the french ones that have failed spectacularly (or miserably) and left me stranded by the side of the road.

VW/VAG group cars are no where near as reliable as people think

I'd echo that, plus the comment about fit and finish.

I'm not sure what else I'd get to replace a Passat, besides Mondeo. I really really like driving the DSG - isn't it only Ford that do a similar thing?

"but its only the french ones that have failed spectacularly (or miserably) and left me stranded by the side of the road."

Only my vw has ever left me by the side of the road with an unresolvable issue...... (that was the pistons were melted to the block - didnt even call the AA as it was futile)

My hyundai did fry an ECU on the drive - which was a pain but at least it dumped at home and not on the road.

But they don't see cars that don't break....?

As they're all main dealers I'd assume they see all the cars from new until such time as warranties run out, if only for routine servicing.

In 1987 the "If only" tag line on VW's adverts had some substance but not so much these days. There has been more than a hint of complacency within certain manufacturers in recent past & they are one of them

It took a few by surprise when certain 'budget' far eastern brands started offering 5 & 7 year warranties and most said that it'd 'never catch on', 'never work', 'lose them all a fortune' yet that has proven not to be the case. I was amused when Vauxhall decided to offer their "lifetime" in response but they clearly hadn't worked out that you need the product right first - hence they discontinued that last year.

The industry figures for 2012 that I saw before buying my last car had Honda, Toyota, Kia, Hyundai, Subaru, Seat, Skoda & even Alfa! with better warranty index figures than VW/Audi in the small/mid classes. Part of that could be explained away by people's expectations i.e. they didn't assume their Seat wouldn't have the odd rattle whereas the A3 driver would be more likely to take it back & demand the dealer quieten it.

I really really like driving the DSG - isn't it only Ford that do a similar thing?

Prefer the TCT to the DSG but then you'd have to drive an Alfa.....

Part of that could be explained away by people's expectations i.e. they didn't assume their Seat wouldn't have the odd rattle whereas the A3 driver would be more likely to take it back & demand the dealer quieten it.

Now this is interesting. People buying say, Fiestas or Ibizas might be moving up from a banger, so may well be so impressed by the simple new car factor that any issues don't bother them - or they are not demanding customers. Someone who's prepared to drop £30k on something flash could be more demanding of warranty.

Very hard to say. Isn't it the JD power survey that asks people about their satisfaction? This is also flawed in a different way, since people are prepared to overlook the flaws when they love a car for some other reason - like me. Therefore flash motors end up with higher satisfaction.

I would not buy a second hand car with a DSG gearbox unless it came with a very good warranty. Whilst I have heard of a number of DSG equipped cars reaching 200,000 miles plus without issues, I have also known a number of vehicles that have had £3k bills when it all goes horribly wrong.

Yeah but I have accrued some experience in fixing them myself now 🙂

Much like buying a 29'er. You carry on spinning the guff as mags and manufacturers all love them.

I would not buy another Ford.

I used to love them, reliable and easy to fix.

Now after changing my Mondeo mk 3 calipers repeatedly under warranty, cables, rear subframe bushes, master cylinder and inlet manifolds falling apart.

It was really a case of bad design and no recalls. Otherwise it would have been an excellent car.

Now I buy Audi or BMW, sure things go wrong too but at least there were recalls. Audi and BMW reminds of early Fords - wear and tear with general fix its. But the build quality is on another level.

VW/VAG group cars are no where near as reliable as people think

but...

all my issues on the Pug were warranty still within 1st year, safety recall maybe just after a year, and best part of a grand of work to get thru 1st ever MOT!

all my issue on the Leon have started occurring after 10-12 years. the electric door mech (gets used 2x daily), coil pack, etc. plus now bits and bobs that you expect a 13-14yr old car to need work on to pass MOT (discs, exhaust advisory, spacked windscreen that got properly stoned by a truck, etc.)

fit and finish of my Leon p155es all over that of the Pug. Only plastic creak is the glovebox door. Pug had bits of tape and paper wedged all over the place to stop creaks.

top gear was spot on on Sunday.

And JD Power etc. is all self-selecting statistics. Skodas used to do well as did one model of Toyota Corolla and Daewoos, since so many were driven 10 miles per week by retirees to the supermarket, and they're hardly going to be unsatisfied by dealer when every service etc. is bundled FoC, and the car's hardly going to be stressed enough to even need a pad change in the 2 years they keep the car.

Hora = Molgrips...

Without reading the rest of the thread, I believe Landys were recently discovered to be the most unreliable commercial car on the road. Fortunately there's lots of spare parts about.

Personally I'd go for something with fewer bells and whistles and plenty of aftermarket parts. One of the great things about driving the '03 Octavia I recently sold was a lot of the issues had been sorted by previous owners, and new issues were well documented.

Alfa - for every person that has had a good one, roughly a thousand others have had a duffer.

French cars seem pretty good - my old man had a Pug 405 and 406 and both did over 200k with little needed. Mind you when you had to work on them, they were an utter sod.

Rovers

If it were me, I'd buy something common that's covered by GSF or Euro Carparts. That way when it does go wrong its not a fortune in parts

Looking at the reliability index website it appears the German cars aren't all that.

People seem to think its still the late 80s and early 90s when yes VAG made better built cars than say your average ford. Its simply not like that anymore.

As for the panda. The wife has a 1.2 ka. The same as a panda. A panda in disguise. Same 1.2 fire engine. Same electrics. Woefully unreliable.

Its had a new headgasket after the water pump shat itself at 70mph.
Now it has random electrics faults and sensors going left right and centre. Never again.

Now this is interesting. People buying say, Fiestas or Ibizas might be moving up from a banger, so may well be so impressed by the simple new car factor that any issues don't bother them - or they are not demanding customers. Someone who's prepared to drop £30k on something flash could be more demanding of warranty.

Yep. I'm aware of a garage who had one customer bring a car back 'under warranty' because the paint didn't look the same colour in all light conditions! She was very politely told to go away & stop being silly only to return a day later with her brow-beaten husband because she believed that the garage were simply fobbing her off as she was female. He was very apologetic but they explained the whole thing again to try & appease her.

Priceless!

Alfa - for every person that has had a good one, roughly a thousand others have had a duffer.

I must be one of the lucky few (touchwood) 🙂

In my experience...

Unreliable.

Non ' traditional' Landrovers. Hateful Freelander, was off the road for 12% of the two years I'd had it, from new. One of the Discoveries I was loaned as a courtesy car broke down twice in a week. Appalling dealership attitude . Apart from Gateway Landrover in Newport, who actually cared.

Unsure / mixed thoughts.

I generally like VW group stuff and am one of those nutters who goes to some of the shows.
I have had 3 Passats all from new , two excellent ones, one which was reliable, but parts like door handles and interior fittings just fell off. One 2008 Golf estate, almost as shit as the Freelander, Ive never had a clutch go in under 100000 miles, this one did at 28000, followed by its turbo at 34000.
Currently in a Skoda Superb and it is.
Both my transporters have been trouble free. Vw dealers are at best indifferent. Skoda ones seem a bit better.

Very good indeed.
Never had a bad Vauxhall. 5 in total over the years.
Saab, without doubt my favourite reliable car was a 2001 9-5 estate.

I should probably point out that vans apart , I'm lucky (?) enough to get cars for work, which get changed usually at two or three year / 100k miles. Im also old enough to have had a few ( cars!).

Vauxhall - just picked yet another crappy Insignia hire car and the fuel gauge isn't working properly. It has 6000 miles on it. Hateful to drive too.

EDIT - though I do have a soft spot for Nova's - the two we have owned weren't any more unreliable than cars of the same era and you could at least fix them fairly easily...

My most reliable car to date is my current Berlingo (about 6 years old). It's sailed through the last 2 MOTs with no real issues*.

However, my previous cars were two Fiats and a Renault so it's not up against particularly tough competition...

*fingers crossed I haven't jinxed it!

I would not buy another Ford.

I used to love them, reliable and easy to fix.

Now after changing my Mondeo mk 3 calipers repeatedly under warranty, cables, rear subframe bushes, master cylinder and inlet manifolds falling apart.

It was really a case of bad design and no recalls. Otherwise it would have been an excellent car.

I'm in my second Mondeo and not had any of those problems. Admittedly I had the hatchback for 2 years before getting an estate so no subframe bushes to replace. The Mondeo estate is longest I've kept a car and it's been 100% reliable only wear and tear items some more than others such as brakes and droplinks due to carrying heavy loads. Only item that has failed was the reverse switch on the gearbox.

Most unreliable car was my wife's Mini Cooper R56. Turbo, high oil consumption and rattles all of which BMW said weren't a problem. Pity the person who has that car now.

Vw dealers are at best indifferent.

One reason I feel good about VW is that Sinclair of Cardiff are really good. Pretty much the only garage I've ever been in where I didn't feel like I was being screwed. They are constrained by VW pricing of course but have done stuff for me without charging.. Out of pity I think 🙂

Funny how if a vw has a reliability issue, it's "just a few parts on a particular batch of cars" and has been blown out of all proportion, yet if another brand (alfa/fiat) has an issue it because they are all crap. VW's marketeers must be praised for their ability to convince the owners of their mediocre machines that they are wonderfully reliable, despite the fact that there are in fact s##t.

The difference between VAG stuff and Japanese stuff can be summed up, based on personal experience, as follows:

VAG - Feels really good quality, but doesn't last
Jap - Feels cheap, lasts forever

Also what get me is people criticise the likes of subaru for having expensive parts, this is irrelevant because you won't need to buy any.

VAG - Feels really good quality, but doesn't last
Jap - Feels cheap, lasts forever

May be true, but do I really want to drive forever in a cheap feeling car?